The Rules Consistency Problem

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Just ignore the troll.

As for the "official no loop hole guide" we really don't. Compendium doesn't do much.

I can't exactly say what's going on but this is getting attention - the HJ for Ontario Provincials is involved, we're going to at least try to keep this moving upwards. If we get enough people talking, maybe P!P will have to listen. So far though it's mostly been these "rules team" clowns showing off their e-peen for running Compendium, even though it's a badly written piece of documentation that needs considerable rework, official sanction, and a proper tie-in with the Japanese rules.
 
You should take prizes even with phoenix turn works, E-belt states you take an extra card 'if the pokémon this card is attached to is knocked out' and phoenix turn states 'this counts as Ho-Oh being knocked out'

As for portrait if your opponent has the energy in hand and doesn't use the supporter then that isn't a bad rule, thats the opponent cheating, theres nothing saying that you can't ask your opponent to clarify that they don't have the energy and if they don't clarify then they loose an energy attachment for the turn because they can't say i've got no energy then play an energy
 
The Pain: there's one problem: before the power says Ho-Oh counts as being knocked out, it tells you to discard all cards attached. This includes Expert Belt being discarded - and there is no hard and fast rule on order of operations here.

Also there is no way to know your opponent has energy in hand without YOU cheating - so no, that is not them cheating, that is the basic concept of public and private zones. Since nothing is letting you see their hand, they are allowed to make a decision based on that uncertainty. All card games, pokemon included, write their rulings based on this concept.
 
You discard as part of a normal knockout hence 2 prizes, its the same think with garchomp CX against scizor prime

People say garchomp can hit scizor because the DCE is discarded first but it cant, can you explain why??
 
^i believe you discard before damage. im probably wrong but just like the old cards "in order to use this attack" is still in play so thus in order to use that attack you must discards...did i get it right? lol

the point is to get rid of all the unwritten rules to be able to solve these kind of problems easily and pretty soon there will be no problems. the problem though is every new set trying to play out ever scenario to find those loop holes
 
Or people could keep upto date, I'll be honest i'm not having any these problems with 'unwritten' rules.

the only rules problem i have is last minute errata to cards that have been played a given way for at least 1 season [see unown G]
 
^obviously you didnt know what happens when garchomp hits scizor. and most players are like you and then know what to do when problems come up but the rest have no clue thus having an official unseen rulebook would be great...but again it would take some time
 
I did know i was seeing if the OP knew, attack resolution is always worked out as damage then effect no matter how its written on the card.

also a secondary problem with an unseen rulebook is the fact that a new 1 would have to be released every 3 months to cover new cards and ALL (emphasis not yelling) combinations within 2 100 cards sets a potential 10,000 combinations arise and that doesn't cover situational encounters.

This is why the compendium was created and FAQ's from Japan are released so that players can find the answers in an adaptable medium
 
^he would know...hes a professor lol. that is what i was saying. there would always be new problems every new set. and ones that were over looked it would be a never ending battle
 
^what...? i never tested you i just said he would know because he is a professor....i guess a professor doesnt know all the answers but the big ones like that they would ANYWAY back on topic
 
The Pain: there's one problem: before the power says Ho-Oh counts as being knocked out, it tells you to discard all cards attached. This includes Expert Belt being discarded - and there is no hard and fast rule on order of operations here.
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The problem with that is...so does Ectoplasm. There's no difference in timing whatsoever. This creates a blatant inconsistency.
And no, the big professors wouldn't know all the answers. In fact, they might not know the more crucial ones at all.
the only rules problem i have is last minute errata to cards that have been played a given way for at least 1 season [see unown G]
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And if the rules were a lot more clear on what goes on in order of operations, they wouldn't need to make so many errata or rulings.
 
The errata was not made due to the card being misplayed, it was made to change its effect entirely.

Also the ruling comes from the timing of the effects ectoplasm activates on the KO while turn activates before the KO check

http://compendium.pokegym.net/compendium-lvx.html#437

Its was made for a reason
 
Dude, read the cards, seriously. The timing is the same - it's "would be Knocked Out", and you discard all cards before it's treated as a knockout. By the time you check for a Knockout, Expert Belt isn't in play anymore. It's either both 1 or both 2; having them both different is unreasonable.
 
shall we ignore that I posted a link to the section of the compendium that tells you the answer, and the compendium is sourced officially
 
^^I think the reason why it's different is because Ho-oh reads "during your Opponent's turn" while Dusknoir doesn't. so Ho-oh's power activates during the opponent's turn, before the KO check between turns. while Dusknoir's activates between turns, where it can be argued that it's activated at the same time as the KO check.

< not even a professor =p

who thinks my explination is better than the PUI ruling? since theirs reads that since Ho-oh isn't discarded it only gives 1 prize card, and Dusk counts as 2 prizes because it "still counts as a knocked out pokemon"

if that is the reason for the ruling, then ho-oh should give up 2 prizes as well since it also says that it still counts as a knocked out pokemon.

the inconsistency is there in their rulings, but I think my post is a more reasonable explination of the 1 vs 2 prize debate going on right now.
 
"Q. If you have an Expert Belt attached to Dusknoir Lv.X and it would be knocked out from damage, is Expert Belt discarded before prize cards are taken? In other words, would the opponent take 1 or 2 prize cards as Dusknoir Lv.X moves into a stadium due to its "Ectoplasm" Poke-POWER?
A. Dusknoir is still a Knocked Out Pokemon and Expert Belt is attached at the time the Knock Out is checked for, so the opponent would draw 2 prize cards. (Dec 10, 2009 PUI Rules Team)"

Ho-oh's power states "this counts as ho-oh being knocked out" so it could be argued that the KO check is part of the power that is activated during the opponent's turn.

I still agree with DNA that it should be 1 or 2 for both. I'm simply saying that the reason I gave that it could be different is better than what the rulings say is the reason why it's 1 ho-oh, 2 dusknoir.
 
Ho-Ohs case is stated in that same link in the same section

Q. If my opponent's Ho-oh has "Expert Belt" attached and would be KO'd by damage from an attack, but the coin flip for its "Phoenix Turn" Poke-POWER comes up heads, do I get to draw two prize cards or only one?
A. You draw 1 prize. Phoenix Turn is resolved after fully processing the attack but before processing Knock Outs. Expert Belt's extra prize effect only applies if it is in play when the Pokemon is removed from play due to Knock Out (or would be removed, in Ho-Oh's case). Since it was discarded prior to this by Phoenix Turn, you don't get the extra prize. (Jun 3, 2010 PUI Rules Team)
 
exactly, pheonix turn gets fully resolved and part of the power states that it counts as a knock out. so, it stating it counts as a knockout within the power itself, during your opponent's turn, it counts as a K O before the actual K O check. that is why I agree with DNA about it needing to be 1 or 2 for both. stating that E-belt only activates if the pokemon is removed from play due to K O. neither Dusk nor ho-oh are removed from play. nowhere on e-belt does it say that, but it's part of the ruling.
 
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