The Rules Consistency Problem
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you placing that in bold and ignoring the part that reads "Expert Belt's extra prize effect only applies if it is in play when the Pokemon is removed from play due to Knock Out" is also a matter of interpretation since Dusknoir isn't removed from play as it's power reads "instead of discarding it".
in contrast to that you can look at Floatazel GL X's pokebody where it reads that you return the KO'd pokemon and all cards attached to it from the discard pile to your hand. so "Expert Belt's extra prize effect only applies if it is in play when the Pokemon is removed from play due to Knock Out" still comes into play with Floatazel's body, but not with Dusknoir's poke-power.
if they simply did not state Expert Belt's extra prize effect requirements, I would agree that it's a 1 prize vs 2 prize as logical. but since they themselves created the requirement of the pokemon needing to be removed from play in order to get the extra prize, then Dusk should only yield 1 prize.
in contrast to that you can look at Floatazel GL X's pokebody where it reads that you return the KO'd pokemon and all cards attached to it from the discard pile to your hand. so "Expert Belt's extra prize effect only applies if it is in play when the Pokemon is removed from play due to Knock Out" still comes into play with Floatazel's body, but not with Dusknoir's poke-power.
if they simply did not state Expert Belt's extra prize effect requirements, I would agree that it's a 1 prize vs 2 prize as logical. but since they themselves created the requirement of the pokemon needing to be removed from play in order to get the extra prize, then Dusk should only yield 1 prize.
Right I'm going to try saying this 1 last time, Pheonix turn activates after the attack but before the KO so when you check for the KO ebelt isn't there anymore, Ectoplasm activates upon the knockout so ebelt is attached when dusknoir is KO'd
As for floatzel that effect activates after the KO allowing you to pick up the pokemon from the discard pile
As for floatzel that effect activates after the KO allowing you to pick up the pokemon from the discard pile
and I'm going to say this one last time too, "Expert Belt's extra prize effect only applies if it is in play when the Pokemon is removed from play due to Knock Out" neither are removed from play. sure they resolve at different times, but e-belt's extra prize requirement is not met when Dusknoir is KO'd.
that is exactly why I compared it to floatazel's body since it's kind of the only other thing that is remotely close to Dusknoir and Ho-oh's power. but that's an obvious 2 prize yield.
that is exactly why I compared it to floatazel's body since it's kind of the only other thing that is remotely close to Dusknoir and Ho-oh's power. but that's an obvious 2 prize yield.
You still send dusknoir to the discard after ectoplasm anyway only the X becomes a stadium, would you be happy if i said that the e-belt goes with the rest of the line? or would you split hairs about that
also its removed from the field, removed from play assumes the lost zones involved
also its removed from the field, removed from play assumes the lost zones involved
there are alot of areas that aren't considered "in play" such as the discard. otherwise Jumpluff would use regice or registeel to dump pokemon into the discard to OHKO every single pokemon card ever. even the jumbo Zoroark and legends promo. but not Mr. Mime {jungle}.
you don't discard them after ectoplasm, you discard them as a requirement of the power, which is why DNA had been arguing the point of E-belt being gone at the time of KO check.
you don't discard them after ectoplasm, you discard them as a requirement of the power, which is why DNA had been arguing the point of E-belt being gone at the time of KO check.
I've given you the ruling, I've told you the reason for it, I've shown you the source, if you really want to ignore it then feel free, interpret the cards however you want just don't get upset when a Prof or Judge tells you your wrong.
Not that what a prof says matters you've just been arguing with 1 for the past page
Not that what a prof says matters you've just been arguing with 1 for the past page
DNA is also a professor.. and thinks the ruling should be changed. I happen to agree with him, which is why I've been arguing the point of why it should be treated the same.
also, the new ruling on Dusknoir with regards to Rescue energy, it says that it's the owner of Dusk to decide to use the power and lose rescue energy or use rescue and not get placed as a stadium. both of which are done at the time of K O check. so why not also make E-belt the owner's choice if it's a 1 or 2 prize situation. in some cases 2 prizes would be beneficial. like if they're using Drifblim FB, twins, or upper energy.
also, the new ruling on Dusknoir with regards to Rescue energy, it says that it's the owner of Dusk to decide to use the power and lose rescue energy or use rescue and not get placed as a stadium. both of which are done at the time of K O check. so why not also make E-belt the owner's choice if it's a 1 or 2 prize situation. in some cases 2 prizes would be beneficial. like if they're using Drifblim FB, twins, or upper energy.
Shall we also ignore your assumption that the Compendium is totally infallible?The Pain said:
Instead of just quoting things and see where we go from there, I choose to use simple logic and deduction to come to my conclusions.
First off, you have Phoenix Turn. It happens during the opponent's turn when Knocked Out by damage. Assuming that you get heads, you discard every non-Energy card on Ho-Oh and remove all the damage counters. Then, you apply the Knockout here (since the power activates if it "would be Knocked Out", not when it actually is.)
Second off, you have Ectoplasm. Although it doesn't say it happens during your opponent's turn, that's the only time when it can happen, since the trigger is if damage from an opponent's attack "would...Knock Out" Dusknoir. If you use the power, you discard everything on Dusknoir, then play the LV.X as a Stadium. Again, this is when you check for the Knockout, after you play down Dusknoir as a Stadium.
The wording is basically identical on both powers in both their timings and effects. Therefore the most logical conclusion is that if there's an Expert Belt involved, you take the same amount of prizes for both situations - either both 1 or both 2. Not going into detail on which one it should be (since there is probably not enough information to go off of, and for the cause of this, it doesn't matter), you'd expect that to be the case.
It isn't.
There are a bunch of other strange rulings that are unaccounted for, such as the Portrait rulings previously mentioned, or my favorite one, attempting to use Drag Off against a Toxicroak G PL benched. (You would not normally ever do this, but again, for this argument it doesn't matter.) The Compendium rules that both the switch and the damage get blocked. I disagree with this because, although I agree that you can't switch it, Anticipation is only negating the switch, not the damage. Therefore, logic dictates that you do the damage and not the switch, i.e. 30 damage to the existing Defending Pokemon. Again, nope.
And again, therein lies the crux of the matter - to draft up a document or rulings page that will solve 95% of all problems before they ever arise, so you don't have to wait 2 months or more for the Compendium to get back to you. (Being a judge in many tournaments, and encountering many situations both real and hypothetical, I end up submitting many questions directly to Team Compendium itself, but I don't get answers for months on end, which causes no end of frustration.)
Yes, but I think that me being a professor and judge for 2 years now (concurrently) adds a little bit more weight to my case. Now, I think we have a topic to get back to.The Pain said:
I can't do much but agree with DNA on his above post - he's pretty much covered every rebuttal (thanks, I have too much to do right now).
I think most of us are professors here. I've also given lectures on rules development at U of Ottawa and been doing game development as either a job, hobby, or research practice for almost ten years now. If we're looking to match credentials, I likely have you. Now let's get back to the topic at hand instead, where we figure out how we're going to pressure P!P to actually make such a document happen?
I think most of us are professors here. I've also given lectures on rules development at U of Ottawa and been doing game development as either a job, hobby, or research practice for almost ten years now. If we're looking to match credentials, I likely have you. Now let's get back to the topic at hand instead, where we figure out how we're going to pressure P!P to actually make such a document happen?
I'm not saying the the compendium is perfect, but its where the rules come from if your not going to listen to it then why are you even judging, the rules are there they make sense its you adding your interpretation which is causing a problem.
You wont be able to pressure TCPi into making a document for the reason I stated 2 pages back, the fact that a new edition would need to be fielded every 3 months and the number of combinations would grow exponentially with each set.
they could do this online though and just add important rulings to an existing list
You wont be able to pressure TCPi into making a document for the reason I stated 2 pages back, the fact that a new edition would need to be fielded every 3 months and the number of combinations would grow exponentially with each set.
they could do this online though and just add important rulings to an existing list
I think we all want p!p to make the rules, what you stated earlier about it being an online medium makes sense, but why not have p!p themselves run it? And clear up rules before they arise. They know what is going to be printed on the cards before they print them. If they include a 4 page booklet with the themedecks with every expansion, the increased revenue from that alone would cover the cost of updating the rules and running a site like the pui team's. Especially if they wait a week after a set's release before updating the site. Competitive players will buy theme decks just to know the new matchups and what the rulings are.
how can we get them to do this, or something better?
how can we get them to do this, or something better?
The gym makes the compendium and are given the rulings from TCPi, why pay some-one to do it when there are people on the net that will happily spread the word for free, just because the compendium doesn't have the Play! Pokémon logo splattered across it doesn't mean that it isn't official.
Also what about first time players, a booklet from the new expansions set will not cover previous expansions and if it does then it will be more than 4 pages long, to accurately cover all expansions you'll need a properly sized book, thats like saying that some-one can't play a LOTR game without first reading the hobbit.
would the spend the time reading a 50 page book of rulings so you can start playing the game, i believe that would put off more people than it would help
Also what about first time players, a booklet from the new expansions set will not cover previous expansions and if it does then it will be more than 4 pages long, to accurately cover all expansions you'll need a properly sized book, thats like saying that some-one can't play a LOTR game without first reading the hobbit.
would the spend the time reading a 50 page book of rulings so you can start playing the game, i believe that would put off more people than it would help
it wouldn't be that big if it's expansion specific. Like, when expert belt came out, they could have had a few lines saying what is the requirement for drawing two prizes then listing an example of a loophole. Done. I'll say the reason why p!p should do it again, so that the rulings would be released simultaneously with the expansion. I only stated to have it as an insert in theme decks so that it would offset the costs of doing that to begin with. They could still get it done for "free" by having a higher level than professors and judges with their own set of goodies. But then they risk card info leaks. Which is why if they keep it internal, they can control the leaks better.
having them run it solves 2 problems, poor wording, and the snail pace of rulings decisions.
added bonus of this system.. It will effect the types of cards released because they're looking directly at possible matchups. Leading to a more fair and balanced card game.
also, the statement about putting off new players with a 50 page rulings book.. Have you read your cell phone's book cover to cover? Probably not. You may have skimmed the quick start guide and then dove into the features. The current rule book is written like a quick start guide anyways. And if it's a young player who is truly new to the game, they have the trainer kits. It'll be like wizard's labeling system all over again, but it made sense. Starter deck was for beginner, theme decks for intermediates, and boosters for experts.
sorry if I got off topic there, I'm listing a a possible means for the rulings to be done in a much faster pace and hopefully more clear manner.
having them run it solves 2 problems, poor wording, and the snail pace of rulings decisions.
added bonus of this system.. It will effect the types of cards released because they're looking directly at possible matchups. Leading to a more fair and balanced card game.
also, the statement about putting off new players with a 50 page rulings book.. Have you read your cell phone's book cover to cover? Probably not. You may have skimmed the quick start guide and then dove into the features. The current rule book is written like a quick start guide anyways. And if it's a young player who is truly new to the game, they have the trainer kits. It'll be like wizard's labeling system all over again, but it made sense. Starter deck was for beginner, theme decks for intermediates, and boosters for experts.
sorry if I got off topic there, I'm listing a a possible means for the rulings to be done in a much faster pace and hopefully more clear manner.
its all about having it official whether its in a theme deck that people will buy (it would be mostly beginners anyway...we know not to buy those cause they usually suck. or they just send registered P!P players one or you get one when you go to an event it doesnt matter as long as players get them. and really there arnt that many problems that arise each set so they would have to reprint it every 3 months but they would have to do it at least every year
This is a common misconception: the gym is NOT given rulings for the compendium from TPCi: they make 90% of them themselves. It is _not_ official, you can check that with any senior event organizer from P!P.
There would BE no 50 page book of rulings if there was a better rulebook, probably about 8-10 pages long, which would not replace the introductory book, but augment it. Done.
Have any of you read the comprehensive rules for Magic? Take that, cut it down to Pokemon's level of decision complexity (MUCH lower) and that's about what we need.
There would BE no 50 page book of rulings if there was a better rulebook, probably about 8-10 pages long, which would not replace the introductory book, but augment it. Done.
Have any of you read the comprehensive rules for Magic? Take that, cut it down to Pokemon's level of decision complexity (MUCH lower) and that's about what we need.
@kittymew: no problem
A 50-page booklet wouldn't be that hard to read. It'd probably take you 30 minutes at the most, and there are activities in life that are far more time-consuming (such as studying for exams), and if it helps us understand the rules of the game more, so much the better. (The first time - and the second time - I took the Professor Test, I wanted to make sure I got a passing grade, so I read the entirety of the Compendium, which took me over 2 hours, just so I could make sure I knew the material.)
Additionally, not everyone would need to read it, but it would be highly recommended. That, or just make a much better rulebook, which would probably be incredibly effective. I don't think it would need to be overly complicated, just clear enough so that people know what they're doing. And if it needs to be complicated, so be it - remember, the vast majority of Pokemon TCG players are in the Masters division, and they can handle an advanced rulebook just fine. (Have you seen the super-early Yugioh rulebooks? Confusing beyond reason. The newer ones are much clearer yet with the same level of complexity, and incredibly effective. I had to learn by playing the video games plus by trial and error.)
So realistically, things cannot keep staying the way they are. You end up with ill-informed participants, both players and judges alike, who only have a cursory understanding of the game, and only a small handful who really have a solid grip on everything. Were a new document released, I think Pokemon as a whole would be better.
As a judge in a tournament, I am obligated to go by what the Compendium rules, of course. That does not mean, however, that I agree with it on every point. And this isn't even the issue anyway.The Pain said:
A 50-page booklet wouldn't be that hard to read. It'd probably take you 30 minutes at the most, and there are activities in life that are far more time-consuming (such as studying for exams), and if it helps us understand the rules of the game more, so much the better. (The first time - and the second time - I took the Professor Test, I wanted to make sure I got a passing grade, so I read the entirety of the Compendium, which took me over 2 hours, just so I could make sure I knew the material.)
Additionally, not everyone would need to read it, but it would be highly recommended. That, or just make a much better rulebook, which would probably be incredibly effective. I don't think it would need to be overly complicated, just clear enough so that people know what they're doing. And if it needs to be complicated, so be it - remember, the vast majority of Pokemon TCG players are in the Masters division, and they can handle an advanced rulebook just fine. (Have you seen the super-early Yugioh rulebooks? Confusing beyond reason. The newer ones are much clearer yet with the same level of complexity, and incredibly effective. I had to learn by playing the video games plus by trial and error.)
So realistically, things cannot keep staying the way they are. You end up with ill-informed participants, both players and judges alike, who only have a cursory understanding of the game, and only a small handful who really have a solid grip on everything. Were a new document released, I think Pokemon as a whole would be better.
I'm really not seeing it. In 3 years of playing and 2.5 of judging, the "inconsistencies" you refer to are bold faced wording differences. A handful are translation issues, I'll give you that, but most are clearly logically different.
In 3 years of judging I have disagreed with a ruling once, and after confronting Team Compendium about it personally, they sat me down and explained the wording differences. I think you should go back and pay more attention to wordings and follow logical strings through the decisions made. I don't have time to deal with your "inconsistencies" card-by-card, but I'm sure Team Compendium would be willing to take you up on that if you were to post about it on Pokegym in their territory.
Also, Kittymew, the Compendium is 100% official. Any rulings made on the 'Gym are made by representatives of TPCi. That is why it takes so long to get rulings on new cards. Team Compendium do not make rulings unless they can specify a precedent or have direct word from P!P. I don't know what Organizers you've been talking to.
In 3 years of judging I have disagreed with a ruling once, and after confronting Team Compendium about it personally, they sat me down and explained the wording differences. I think you should go back and pay more attention to wordings and follow logical strings through the decisions made. I don't have time to deal with your "inconsistencies" card-by-card, but I'm sure Team Compendium would be willing to take you up on that if you were to post about it on Pokegym in their territory.
Also, Kittymew, the Compendium is 100% official. Any rulings made on the 'Gym are made by representatives of TPCi. That is why it takes so long to get rulings on new cards. Team Compendium do not make rulings unless they can specify a precedent or have direct word from P!P. I don't know what Organizers you've been talking to.
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