The Tier List (HS-BW)
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One more thing that Kyurem has over TTar..
It's not weak to DonChamp lol
It's not weak to DonChamp lol
And then the things T-tar has over Kyruem:
-A beast 160 HP means each T-Tar survives two turns while any good deck (Reshiram, Zekrom, Magnezone, etc) will one-shot Kyurem every time.
-No need for energy acceleration; it only needs one energy to spread
-Attacks that do good damage you can build up on the bench
-Absol Prime starter which fits perfectly into the deck as an occasional attacker/sweeper
-A beast 160 HP means each T-Tar survives two turns while any good deck (Reshiram, Zekrom, Magnezone, etc) will one-shot Kyurem every time.
-No need for energy acceleration; it only needs one energy to spread
-Attacks that do good damage you can build up on the bench
-Absol Prime starter which fits perfectly into the deck as an occasional attacker/sweeper
I have to favor Kyruem over T-Tar. I have actually tried T-Tar spread, and in theory, it seems good, but if faces one annoying snag... It's recovery is pitiful. Kyruem can be EASILY recovered via Revive, which works with the fact that Junk Arms and a couple Energy Retrievals will be in the deck, anyways. T-Tar requires a complex system of Flower Shop Lady and Dual Ball/Pokemon Communication (unless you have Rescue energy, which will still require more resources and at least an extra turn before you can place it down again), which isn't worth it. Did I mention that Donphan Prime one-shots all that hard work?
Also...
- The energy acceleration is satisfied with a stage-2 pokemon (the same as T-Tar). Kyruem is just a basic and is easily placed down along the way to setting up Feraligatr Prime. This is not an issue at all.
- Kyruem does the same, building up damage on the bench. The different here is that you don't damage your own pokemon, and most importantly, it does the big extra 10 damage that allows it to become a threatening spreader. 60 damage can be accumulated on one pokemon in two turns, where-as T-Tar requires three turns to match that number, and that makes all the more difference in a spread deck. This lets finisher cards like Jirachi, DCL, and Feraligatr Prime deliver the crippling blow one turn sooner, and we all know how big of a difference that one turn can make in a game.
- Absol Prime isn't that good. It doesn't solve your weakness problem, its attack is mediocre, and you're not always going to start with it. It's Poke-body is its only high point, and that requires the brittle guy to be active. The extra two damage counters isn't work it when Kyruem has greater versatility and does the extra spread damage to begin with.
Overall, I'd heavily favor Kyruem over T-Tar. The easier recover and greater spread damage are the big deciding factors for me, and the setup speed is the same.
Also...
- Without Evolite, yes, Kyruem would be one-shotted with PlusPower. However, even if we don't get Evolite when Kyruem comes out, we still have Defender, which will still buy the extra turn it needs, anyways. Regardless, this means that in these cases, Kyruem will NOT be taken down in one turn. That means two Glaciates and either mass abuse of those damage counters via DCL or Feraligatr Prime, and that means prizes incoming.win said:
- The energy acceleration is satisfied with a stage-2 pokemon (the same as T-Tar). Kyruem is just a basic and is easily placed down along the way to setting up Feraligatr Prime. This is not an issue at all.
- Kyruem does the same, building up damage on the bench. The different here is that you don't damage your own pokemon, and most importantly, it does the big extra 10 damage that allows it to become a threatening spreader. 60 damage can be accumulated on one pokemon in two turns, where-as T-Tar requires three turns to match that number, and that makes all the more difference in a spread deck. This lets finisher cards like Jirachi, DCL, and Feraligatr Prime deliver the crippling blow one turn sooner, and we all know how big of a difference that one turn can make in a game.
- Absol Prime isn't that good. It doesn't solve your weakness problem, its attack is mediocre, and you're not always going to start with it. It's Poke-body is its only high point, and that requires the brittle guy to be active. The extra two damage counters isn't work it when Kyruem has greater versatility and does the extra spread damage to begin with.
Overall, I'd heavily favor Kyruem over T-Tar. The easier recover and greater spread damage are the big deciding factors for me, and the setup speed is the same.
And to add on Wes' point, that 20 damage to your own side of the board is what kills T-Tar, you hurt your own Larvitars and Pupitars which opens them to easy OHKOs.. (Turns 2 Pluspowers into 1 in Donphan's Case) and Donchamp will still remain popular even with all the new releases. TTar has to contend with the fact that it has a 20-80 Matchup against one of the best decks in the format while Kyurem can easily handle DonChamp given that he has access to spread, acceleration and synergy with each other. Kyurem will defenitely be a Tier 1 deck (whether it'll be an upper or lower Tier 1 is beyond me) and TTar will be a Tier 2
Also, after you use a couple of darkness howls, your stuff are also within 3 energy Lost Burn Range by Magnezone Prime
Also, after you use a couple of darkness howls, your stuff are also within 3 energy Lost Burn Range by Magnezone Prime
I like Tyranitar better than Kyurem, considering 120+ for a small drawback is amazing, and it abuses Sp. Dark. But with heavy retreat Pokemon out of favor this format, I think it won't be as great as Kyurem. Plus, Kyurem has Feraligatr to work with, both the Prime and the regular. I think it's more of a tier two deck IMO.
I'm leaning on Kyurem to be 1.5 to 1. It has too much firepower not to reach that high. It can also abuse a 1-1 Darkrai-Cresselia Legend Tech to move the counters out and make it even more annoying. The only thing that this deck lacks is consistent draw which can be solved by playing 4 PONT and 4 Juniper/Sage's and 4 Eng. Adjustments.
There are two things that could give Kyurem a lot of trouble. One of them is pokemon that can quickly one shot Kyurem. If Kyurem does not get off two Glaciates before getting killed, Feraligatr can only OHKO a couple things in the meta. Doing so also risks Gatr getting revenge killed, so another one needs a fairly quick setup. What's probably a bigger problem though is Reshiram (or Zekrom especially I think) running the recently announced trainer that takes 20 damage off basics. This render's Glaciate's effectiveness to a minimum.
Serperior could also be a problem I guess but the only decks I know that run that are straight serperior/reuniclus (which, barring dragging out Gatr I guess) has very little offensive power, and Donphan, which can get OHKOed by Outrage if Donphan even attacks Kyurem once, so I'm not sure where I stand with that yet. Solrock and Lunatone can also shut Serperior down anyway, though with Catcher waiting in the wings I seriously doubt that will last.
Serperior could also be a problem I guess but the only decks I know that run that are straight serperior/reuniclus (which, barring dragging out Gatr I guess) has very little offensive power, and Donphan, which can get OHKOed by Outrage if Donphan even attacks Kyurem once, so I'm not sure where I stand with that yet. Solrock and Lunatone can also shut Serperior down anyway, though with Catcher waiting in the wings I seriously doubt that will last.
Well if you do Catcher the SolLuna you'll get mauled by his incoming active.
Though one thing that can give Kyurem trouble is Scizor Prime. It's a bit faster since he only needs Stage 1 and hopefully should see play because it can prevent easy turn 2 to turn 5 BearPlume setups.
Though one thing that can give Kyurem trouble is Scizor Prime. It's a bit faster since he only needs Stage 1 and hopefully should see play because it can prevent easy turn 2 to turn 5 BearPlume setups.
Scizor may actually be a viable deck (or at least a viable tech) if Beartic and Kyurem do as well as expected, considering it's a fast deck and it can make an absolute joke out of either of those pokemon due to weakness.
In terms of Catcher I was referring to Serperior as well btw, especially in something like Donkperior. With the healing engine shut down, I don't think Donphan will get terribly far on its own, especially since it really can't revenge kill.
In terms of Catcher I was referring to Serperior as well btw, especially in something like Donkperior. With the healing engine shut down, I don't think Donphan will get terribly far on its own, especially since it really can't revenge kill.
I could see it as high as tier 2, but I think most people will say tier 3. I myself vote for tier 2 since with two houndoom on the bench and a rainbow energy for roserade, it can do a fairly consistent 150 (not including PSN and burn), which can let it OHKO anything in the meta. It's also a fairly quick deck as a pure stage 1 deck, and it can use confusion or sleep to stall a bit if the knockout isn't guaranteed, both of these rely on flips though and Switch completely ruins that approach. Reshiram is also a big problem for the deck too.
I think Catcher will be the death of this deck though. All the pokemon are too fragile, and if Roserade is KOed, most of the damage potential goes with it.
I think Catcher will be the death of this deck though. All the pokemon are too fragile, and if Roserade is KOed, most of the damage potential goes with it.
Magnevire said:
Oddly enough, I actually find Torkoal to be equally useful. Regardless, though, I do agree with how Catcher will cause the death of it. However, Catcher isn't out, yet, so until that card makes the scene and completely changes the face of the format as we know it, I say that Powerade (AKA Leafeon/Roserade) it should be on that tiers list.
On a side note, the thread creator seems to be banned. Should someone create a new thread so we can keep the list updated?
First poster is permabanned, so yea, new thread.
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