Pokemon The Tree of Legend
- Thread starter Mitja
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Mitja said:
I meant more than because they are so different compared to other legendaries (Ho-oh and Lugia are well above the 3 of their trio while Rayquaza is a part of his trio and only slightly stronger than either of them) they aren't directly related amongst each other.
Ahhh yes, I completely forgot all of the Johto lore
. Never mind me.
Mitja, i understand your point with the dissimilarities, and now I would have to agree that Lugia is more of a sea monster/half dragon type thing because of the hand-like wings and almost mammal-like feet. So yeah, it makes more sense now that you explain it like that. Also, what I meant when I said "primarily" flying or dragon was that the two look much more like they are flying types, what with the wings and lugia kind of has a beak (not really, but it sort of looks like it) and Ho-oh definitely does, but ray looks much more like a dragon. Lugia doesn't look particularly "psychic" and Ho-oh doesn't look especially fiery, but Rayquaza definitely looks like a dragon. Anyway, moot point I guess because I absolutely agree with you now. It's just very interesting to contemplate about this stuff, even if it is all fantasy
Blui129 said:
It could have anything connected it's head, in PMD red/blue Diglet says he has feet, but he could have drills or other digging instruments attatched to him as well. Or change underground to be a drill-like creature, much like Excadrill when he uses Drill Run in the anime.
Equinox said:
I know, but I wanted to stick 100% to canon (which is the main games, because the people making those, gamefreak, are the people who design every pokemon in the first place), and as far as I'm concerned, the anime makes up tons of things or handles them differently, so I'd rather not open that can of worms, otherwise people will start posting that Giratina and Shaymin are related etc etc.
Some thoughts:
The theory is interesting but there's absolutely no relation between the Tower duo and Rayquaza, only coincidences... and there is no relation between Regigigas and Kyogre/Groudon as well...
Lugia is definitely the trio master of the legendary birds. There's no arguing about that. It doesn't matter if is not explicitly stated in the main games. The movie proves it, that HGSS trailer also makes a reference to that, in the first PMD games, you have to befriend the birds for Lugia to appear and the TCG also has an obvious reference because of Lugia's TCG signature move, Elemental Blast.
Honestly, ignoring the anime just because it may deviate a bit from the games is no reason to not consider the relations it shows between the legendaries...
And ignoring the Pokédex entries in the main games which is what you used for this theory, is even more appalling... Besides providing general information for the species, the Pokédex entries make subtle references that help to confirm things sometimes not specifically stated in the games...
Another thing that keeps annoying me is people that still believe in the Lacunosa town legend... That is what cannot be taken into account. Kyurem didn't come from space. Like Mitja said (and that is something that I always thought as being the most logical explanation for Kyurem origin, even before BW2 came out), It most likely fell from the sky when the original dragon split up and just crashed in the ground. The split probably originated a huge explosion that send the leftovers of what was the original dragon (aka Kyurem) back to the ground. When people in Lacunosa saw the object crashing they probably thought it was a meteor, hence why they think it came from space...
Another thing about the original dragon is that it is either a fusion of Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem but still a different species, or it is simply a complete forme of Kyurem when it absofuses with both Reshiram and Zekrom. Since that didn't happen in Gen V, if the original dragon doesn't appear in gen 6 as a new pokémon, then I think we'll never see it. Also, in terms of stats, what you guys seem to didn't notice is that while B/W Kyurem have 40 more base points than normal Kyurem, they also only are 20 points stronger than Reshiram/Zekrom.
Meaning:
Kyurem -> 660
Reshiram/Zekrom -> 680
Black/White Kyurem -> 700
Original dragon -> 720 - IMO, the original dragon would have the same base stat total of Arceus.
btw: People are so off when it comes to Diglett's apparent lack of logic in the moves it learns and its body, etc. Diglett is based on the whack-a-mole game, that's why its design is only a head coming out of the ground with nothing else that can be seen. Still, if the game is called whack-a-mole, Diglett is still based on a mole, and as such, it learns moves (Slash, Aerial Ace, etc.) based on the features of a normal mole. If you wish, Diglett is that game's version of Drilbur, the other mole pokémon that actually looks like a real mole. So, yeah, Diglett has feet, claws, etc., they're just not there because like I said, it is supposed to just look like a head coming from the ground that you have to smash with a hammer...
The theory is interesting but there's absolutely no relation between the Tower duo and Rayquaza, only coincidences... and there is no relation between Regigigas and Kyogre/Groudon as well...
Lugia is definitely the trio master of the legendary birds. There's no arguing about that. It doesn't matter if is not explicitly stated in the main games. The movie proves it, that HGSS trailer also makes a reference to that, in the first PMD games, you have to befriend the birds for Lugia to appear and the TCG also has an obvious reference because of Lugia's TCG signature move, Elemental Blast.
Honestly, ignoring the anime just because it may deviate a bit from the games is no reason to not consider the relations it shows between the legendaries...
And ignoring the Pokédex entries in the main games which is what you used for this theory, is even more appalling... Besides providing general information for the species, the Pokédex entries make subtle references that help to confirm things sometimes not specifically stated in the games...
Another thing that keeps annoying me is people that still believe in the Lacunosa town legend... That is what cannot be taken into account. Kyurem didn't come from space. Like Mitja said (and that is something that I always thought as being the most logical explanation for Kyurem origin, even before BW2 came out), It most likely fell from the sky when the original dragon split up and just crashed in the ground. The split probably originated a huge explosion that send the leftovers of what was the original dragon (aka Kyurem) back to the ground. When people in Lacunosa saw the object crashing they probably thought it was a meteor, hence why they think it came from space...
Another thing about the original dragon is that it is either a fusion of Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem but still a different species, or it is simply a complete forme of Kyurem when it absofuses with both Reshiram and Zekrom. Since that didn't happen in Gen V, if the original dragon doesn't appear in gen 6 as a new pokémon, then I think we'll never see it. Also, in terms of stats, what you guys seem to didn't notice is that while B/W Kyurem have 40 more base points than normal Kyurem, they also only are 20 points stronger than Reshiram/Zekrom.
Meaning:
Kyurem -> 660
Reshiram/Zekrom -> 680
Black/White Kyurem -> 700
Original dragon -> 720 - IMO, the original dragon would have the same base stat total of Arceus.
btw: People are so off when it comes to Diglett's apparent lack of logic in the moves it learns and its body, etc. Diglett is based on the whack-a-mole game, that's why its design is only a head coming out of the ground with nothing else that can be seen. Still, if the game is called whack-a-mole, Diglett is still based on a mole, and as such, it learns moves (Slash, Aerial Ace, etc.) based on the features of a normal mole. If you wish, Diglett is that game's version of Drilbur, the other mole pokémon that actually looks like a real mole. So, yeah, Diglett has feet, claws, etc., they're just not there because like I said, it is supposed to just look like a head coming from the ground that you have to smash with a hammer...
Metalizard said:
They are the fishy connections of the tree yes.
Because of absolutely no plot indication.
But the stats and the details are there.
I doubt they are as intentional as Id like them to be though lol
(for example Rayquaza has any similarities with Lugia/Ho-oh, probably because they started making these legends with Rayquaza as the new guy doing this role, not because of some underlying structure)
Metalizard said:
I totally forgot the trailer. Yes they are undoubtably as related as beasts-Ho-oh
Metalizard said:
Okay, yes they do.
What bothers me is that they have proven too many times that they aren't reliable. Sometimes they have a point, sometimes they are random bull.
Metalizard said:
The most logical approach at figuring this out is looking how absofusing either dragon affects the stats, and then simply applying both changes to Kyurem.
125-125= 0
130-170= +40
90-100= +10
130-120= -10
90-90= 0
95-95= 0
1 absofuion:
atk1 +40
def1 +10
atk2 -10
combining both sides would result in:
atk1/atk2 +40 -10= +30
def1/def2 = +10
Therefore
Original Kyurem:
125-160-100-160-100-95 -- 740
Mabye within the next few generations, they might tie up loose ends and connect the 'Mythical Pokemon' to the Legendary Pokemon. You should see if you can use placeholders (with nothing in them of course) to see if any connections can be made.
Maybe the key is not finding a link between ONLY the legendary pokémon.
As I see it, this occurred:
Arceus was first, no doubt (unless one of the future gens points out arceus is a member of lifeforms form a different universe)
It is a fact that Arceus created the legendary trio of Sinnoh and the Lake guardians to keep these allpowerful beasts from intercolliding.
The point we have to see here is that NONE of these legendaries was ever destined to actually be in the dimension of "the Universe".
So, as I see it:
In our dimension, Mew came first ( how, i cannot explain).
Starting from Mew, all currently known pokémon evolved. So, in essence All legendary pokemon are related through Mew.
[ best guess is that at that point the continents were One.]
Following from that Groudon, Rayquaza and Kyogre together with Regigigas evolved and they created/changed/moved the world into the different regions.
Groudon and Kyogre ended up in Hoenn, Regigigas in Sinnoh.
Now we have to skip ahead in time. By then all other legendary pokémon evolved in their respective regions ( unrelated to other regions).
Then comes the interesting stuff.
We know that Lugia is related to Articuno Zapdos and Moltres because Jotho is near Kanto, so both factions could have evolved simultaneous ech taking on a different element of the land (fire/ice/lightning/ [psy-water]).
The legend of Regigigas and how MAN created the 3 other Regi's to contain him also fits as people would eventually develop the ability to travel betwen regions.
Since Unova is so far off from the rest, it's legends are naturally very different. [ Just look at the difference in animals in the real world!]. The legendary dragon is therefore not related to Arceus. It developing similar power is merely coincidence and may also explain why the legend of Arceus in not known in Unova ( Legendary Dragon <<< Arceus)
Coming to the modern age, the influence of mankind led to the evolution of new species ( Magnemite, Vanillite, Garbodor, Banette, ...).
And then there are pokemon like Ditto, who is believed to be a failed attempt at cloning Mew (eventually leading to Mewtwo).
Unova faced something similar when Team Plasma modified and revived Genesect.
So, my conclusion is: Everything is related to Mew. The various legends of various regions are due to the simple fact that the regions are quite literally separated from eachother. The resemblances we Do see come from very powerful pokémon who not only have the ability to travel between regions, but also affected events/pokémon in these regions.
Mankind has (indirectly) caused the creation of many species, and we All owe it to Arceus and his creations that this universe exists and remains balanced.
The only thing I cannot place is where Mew came from? He seems to be the solution and at the same time the problem....
As I see it, this occurred:
Arceus was first, no doubt (unless one of the future gens points out arceus is a member of lifeforms form a different universe)
It is a fact that Arceus created the legendary trio of Sinnoh and the Lake guardians to keep these allpowerful beasts from intercolliding.
The point we have to see here is that NONE of these legendaries was ever destined to actually be in the dimension of "the Universe".
So, as I see it:
In our dimension, Mew came first ( how, i cannot explain).
Starting from Mew, all currently known pokémon evolved. So, in essence All legendary pokemon are related through Mew.
[ best guess is that at that point the continents were One.]
Following from that Groudon, Rayquaza and Kyogre together with Regigigas evolved and they created/changed/moved the world into the different regions.
Groudon and Kyogre ended up in Hoenn, Regigigas in Sinnoh.
Now we have to skip ahead in time. By then all other legendary pokémon evolved in their respective regions ( unrelated to other regions).
Then comes the interesting stuff.
We know that Lugia is related to Articuno Zapdos and Moltres because Jotho is near Kanto, so both factions could have evolved simultaneous ech taking on a different element of the land (fire/ice/lightning/ [psy-water]).
The legend of Regigigas and how MAN created the 3 other Regi's to contain him also fits as people would eventually develop the ability to travel betwen regions.
Since Unova is so far off from the rest, it's legends are naturally very different. [ Just look at the difference in animals in the real world!]. The legendary dragon is therefore not related to Arceus. It developing similar power is merely coincidence and may also explain why the legend of Arceus in not known in Unova ( Legendary Dragon <<< Arceus)
Coming to the modern age, the influence of mankind led to the evolution of new species ( Magnemite, Vanillite, Garbodor, Banette, ...).
And then there are pokemon like Ditto, who is believed to be a failed attempt at cloning Mew (eventually leading to Mewtwo).
Unova faced something similar when Team Plasma modified and revived Genesect.
So, my conclusion is: Everything is related to Mew. The various legends of various regions are due to the simple fact that the regions are quite literally separated from eachother. The resemblances we Do see come from very powerful pokémon who not only have the ability to travel between regions, but also affected events/pokémon in these regions.
Mankind has (indirectly) caused the creation of many species, and we All owe it to Arceus and his creations that this universe exists and remains balanced.
The only thing I cannot place is where Mew came from? He seems to be the solution and at the same time the problem....
That seems to be the most popular fan version of this story.
I was trying to do something different hwith this thread, by following the data rather than the lore.
IMO we don't know enough to be sure that these are really more than just strong/rare/special pokemon for which the people in the pokemon universe invented fitting stories.
I mean, its giving Mew so much credit, when all we know is that it shares DNA with most pokemon, and that because of this, scientists are suggesting it might be an ancestor.
The Mew/Arceus contradiction is probably just a poke-verse representation of the theory of evolution and creationism.
For all we know, there might be more "Arceus"-like legendaries in future generations, who will be worshipped by their region as creators.
I was trying to do something different hwith this thread, by following the data rather than the lore.
IMO we don't know enough to be sure that these are really more than just strong/rare/special pokemon for which the people in the pokemon universe invented fitting stories.
I mean, its giving Mew so much credit, when all we know is that it shares DNA with most pokemon, and that because of this, scientists are suggesting it might be an ancestor.
The Mew/Arceus contradiction is probably just a poke-verse representation of the theory of evolution and creationism.
For all we know, there might be more "Arceus"-like legendaries in future generations, who will be worshipped by their region as creators.
Mitja said:
I love what you said about the Mew and Arceus being evolution vs creationism. I think you're correct with that and I hope there are more Pokemon who will be similar to Arceus. Maybe it's just me but I don't like the fact that there is a supposed all powerful Pokemon.
Plus you mentioning in your original post about the tree of life Kabbalah, I noticed for the 6th part is beauty, and in this generation, it's gonna be based on beauty. Though the previous 5 don't make any sense, so it may be a coincidence.
How come Mew isn't apart of the "Tree of Legend"? Out of Gen I it was the very first Legendary Pokemon of that era 2nd Legendary If you count Arcanine but that's beside the point. I also noticed that Celebi wasn't in the tree either which I didn't understand including Jirachi as well and why is Victini left out?
Why is Regirock connected to Uxie? Also, where is mew?
Hackzo23 said:
http://www.ata-tarot.com/reflections/11-05-09/_Media/tree_of_life.jpg
OMG for real! XD
Cool find, although I'm sure its really just coincidence, even though we could try seeing the themes 1-5 relate to gens 1-5 if we tried really hard, like
"Severity"-"gen 5 severly buffed the game and added severe amounts of mons",
"Mercy"-"something about Arceus",
"Understanding"-"Archie and Maxie didn't understand basic climate science, now they do lol."
...
but I doubt they would have started this with those keywords, and especially not for the first 2 gens when they had no idea if thegames are even gonna get any popular.
Card Slinger J said:
I was looking for certain connections.
With Mew, there is two things
-obviously its relation to Mewtwo, but that's cut-off from anything else
-"Mew ancestor of all" and just assume its related to all of them..but even the games aren't really confident in saying that and present it as guesswork of a bunch of scientists who analyzed its DNA.
Arcanine is nowhere legendary in any possible sense that would have anything to do with what this topic is about.
Its species is called "densetsu" in japanese, which really is a word for legend/folklore, but its not identical to the word for actual legendary pokemon.
As for the other cute events... there just aren't any hinted relations to other legends. So all we can do is bunch them together into their own cute event fairy group, or draw subjective connections based seemingly similar themes (like Celebi and Dialga both having to do with time, but that's not what I'm looking for in this)
Reggie McGigas said:
I thought I explained all the connections I made step by step..
Its not Regirock that's connected to Uxie, its the whole golem trio. The lake guardians are so strikingly similar, but the details that differentiate them, happen to be things that can be respectively associated with one fo the first three trios. In the golem-Uxie case, it's having no visual sense (closed eyes, or no eyes), knowledge being required to solve puzzles in braille, and being the defensive trio/psychic.
I put the text and everything into a picture recently.
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/174/f/e/tree_of_life_graphic_by_saiph_charon-d6a9nt4.png
This is a really well thought-out thread. I found it really interesting to read through your post, due to the in-depth description of the connection between the Legendary Pokémon. I am curious about what the new trios will be like, and your post got me thinking that they really might be working on a new "tree of life".
I liked the idea of Keldeo as a Legendary Guardian in training, but I don't think they will have the same concept two generations in a row. Time will tell what happens!
I liked the idea of Keldeo as a Legendary Guardian in training, but I don't think they will have the same concept two generations in a row. Time will tell what happens!
Ok so 2 things:
1. I have a theory about Ho-oh, lugia, and ray I came up with while reading this thread.
Lugia- Psychic/flying because psychic is knowledge which is peaceful as opposed to strength which isn't. Lugia uses its knowledge and wisdom to control the 3 birds and create peace.
Ho-oh- Fire/flying because fire is not only seen as destruction, but as life in some cultures as well. This shows how it gave life to the 3 pokemon who passed.
Ray- Dragon/flying because dragon represents strength a power, the things ray uses to keep groudon and kyogre calm.
2. I have a creation theory where there was a big bang that resulted in an egg. When the egg hatched, arceus came out. The shell/placenta of the egg then became mew (the reason why he looks like a fetus). Arceus went on to create the universe and left mew to fill it with pokemon (including legendaries but not the creation trio because that fell under Arceus' jurisdiction). Soon people were made through some means that is too complicated to explain and Arceus created the pixies to teach them the emotion junk (i forget what it specifically is).
Thoughts?
1. I have a theory about Ho-oh, lugia, and ray I came up with while reading this thread.
Lugia- Psychic/flying because psychic is knowledge which is peaceful as opposed to strength which isn't. Lugia uses its knowledge and wisdom to control the 3 birds and create peace.
Ho-oh- Fire/flying because fire is not only seen as destruction, but as life in some cultures as well. This shows how it gave life to the 3 pokemon who passed.
Ray- Dragon/flying because dragon represents strength a power, the things ray uses to keep groudon and kyogre calm.
2. I have a creation theory where there was a big bang that resulted in an egg. When the egg hatched, arceus came out. The shell/placenta of the egg then became mew (the reason why he looks like a fetus). Arceus went on to create the universe and left mew to fill it with pokemon (including legendaries but not the creation trio because that fell under Arceus' jurisdiction). Soon people were made through some means that is too complicated to explain and Arceus created the pixies to teach them the emotion junk (i forget what it specifically is).
Thoughts?