Discussion Tierno VS Professor Birch's Observations
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Generally you will build a deck to combat this, with a balance of multiple card copies, shuffling supporters (and Shaymin) and resource retrievers. Of course, you'll get a bad hand once in a blue moon, but the benefits always outweighs the negatives.
True, they can do that but I found out I was discarding way too many good cards all to often. Now I'm playing with Dragonite EX and the problem was discarding my SSUs when I didn't want to. The solution was to just replace juniper altogether. Sure I could still use the raw draw power but I think discarding key cards is far worse than drawing 7 at times.
Even if you have resources in your hand that you'd be discarding with Juniper, generally speaking, you're better off just doing it than say waiting around for a Professor Birch or an N. It might be difficult to do psychologically, but you're usually the better for it. There's only been one time where I've been stuck with a Juniper that I absolutely could not play because of the other stuff in my hand (2 Garchomp and 2 Super Rod) was too important, and considering all of the games that I've been playing Juniper, that's pretty good odds. Having a Juniper and 4 Max Potions doesn't sound pleasant, but it also sounds like a rare occurrence. Usually, it'll be like a Max Potion, an Energy, and 2 VS Seeker--something that isn't ideal to discard but is still manageable. That's been my experience with it anyways. There's definitely the risk/reward aspect of playing a card like Juniper/Sycamore.
That is true though. It is pretty rare but with my decks, then tend to be pretty gimmicky in nature. Since I play 2 Super Rods in all my decks, I can part with Pokemon and basic energy easily if needed but all the items in my decks are needed for the deck to maintain itself. losing 2 max Potions to a juniper is two less plays and or options I have against my opponent, which is bad because if that Pokemon goes down, I lose a lot of energy - same with Dragonite EX. I cant afford to discard SSU. While most people would just do it, I just can't because of how my play style is. I'm looking for other ways where I can draw cards but still maintain my conservative play style.
What sucks is the game is just hit as fast and hard as possible. I've been testing around with a single copy in my deck for the just in case but so far, when I really needed to see new cards, it has just been way too painful to discard everything for a chance.
What sucks is the game is just hit as fast and hard as possible. I've been testing around with a single copy in my deck for the just in case but so far, when I really needed to see new cards, it has just been way too painful to discard everything for a chance.
I feel whoever started playing the TCG in one of the XY sets (like myself) have lots of extra tiernos in their collection because when you use your fist deck, you throw a bunch of cards together and Tierno seems to be in there. I always go with Shauna rather than birch (unless I have to go with Birch for some random reason)to get the definite 5 rather than a smaller amount of four (or if the once in a life time heads finally shows up then 7). Tierno I found is a throw in card in most decks when people are still thinking of what to add and what would be the most standard for their deck. Even a deck with 2 stage two lines, I found the standard draw support (Expanded: N, Professor Juniper, Shauna/Birch). In standard, even Vileplume I feel works with Sycamore, Shauna/Birch, and Judge. Overall Tierno just isn't as speedy as the other draw supporters so I think the best choice would be Birch for draw support.
In conclusion, Birch is the better choice for draw support.
When it removed 2 damage counters was when there was the difference in HP. For ex: Sceptile had about 100 hp when now sceptile has about 130 hp. What I am saying is maybe if the draw support is almost unneeded (like how potions are now compared to back then) or a lot better (like now potion heals technically 30 damage rather than 20). Either way it shows even if that does happen where Tierno/New supporter draw 4 cards, it still won't be seeing more play.
In conclusion, Birch is the better choice for draw support.
I tossed out the birch last night for Tierno and it worked well. I think the most interesting play I had with the card is when I had an ultra ball and was looking at four cards in my hand that I didn't want to discard. I played Tierno to increase hand size and it helped. I was able to play the four cards on that turn, plus discard out for a shaymin and draw upward the six.
I also noticed that my increased hand sized was giving me a lot of options. But the one thing that really bugged me was that Hoopa never saw play in the two games I tested. Because of the increased hand sizes, I really didn't play the pokemon. I was getting the cards I wanted, and just ultra balling for what I needed.
At the end of each game, I had drawn through my deck, faster then my kiddos Archies Blastoise deck, which I thought was good. I also had more cards in my hand at the end of each turn. I played Standard: MewTwo/Zorark/Jerachi against Expanded: Achies Blastoise for draw power testing purposes.
I ran only a single copy of Tierno and in both games VS seeker for him twice. Because hoopa was never played, I'm going to test with it a little more before I remove him. Even though my sample size was low, the consistency the deck played with was very intriguing as I won both games. Full disclosure, my kiddo is learning the Archies/blastoise deck. I helped him a lot to out maneuver my deck. Unfortunately, my deck was getting the cards it needed. Both games, my kiddo did a first turn one Blastoise.
Thought I post it.
I also noticed that my increased hand sized was giving me a lot of options. But the one thing that really bugged me was that Hoopa never saw play in the two games I tested. Because of the increased hand sizes, I really didn't play the pokemon. I was getting the cards I wanted, and just ultra balling for what I needed.
At the end of each game, I had drawn through my deck, faster then my kiddos Archies Blastoise deck, which I thought was good. I also had more cards in my hand at the end of each turn. I played Standard: MewTwo/Zorark/Jerachi against Expanded: Achies Blastoise for draw power testing purposes.
I ran only a single copy of Tierno and in both games VS seeker for him twice. Because hoopa was never played, I'm going to test with it a little more before I remove him. Even though my sample size was low, the consistency the deck played with was very intriguing as I won both games. Full disclosure, my kiddo is learning the Archies/blastoise deck. I helped him a lot to out maneuver my deck. Unfortunately, my deck was getting the cards it needed. Both games, my kiddo did a first turn one Blastoise.
Thought I post it.
PMJ
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Yes, I understand that. Times have changed. That's why I suggested that sometime down the line, we could have a supporter that offers straight draw of 4. The reason Tierno is so underplayed is because there are more supporters that get you more cards in your hand.
Its good for what it does since the only other draw cards let you draw to a limit, shuffle, has a coin flip or kills your entire hand to get more cards. Tierno is just a solid draw 3 cards no matter what. Without N in the format, its easier to play this card because the lowest your hand can drop to is 4 cards (unless Ace Trainer is involved). With things like Shaymin EX and Tierno, you can see many cards in 1 turn while keeping what you need. If you want to play junipers, then go for it but I want to reduce the risk of discarding what I need since my decks are so technical.
Tierno is unreliable, hes the friend who is always by your side and does what he can. Juniper is unreliable because you never know how much of your hand you can play before your discard it to maybe see new options. Maybe you can play down as close to 0 as you can or you discard a hand full of supporters and vs seekers. I do agree if it were draw 4 cards, it would see more play.
Tierno is unreliable, hes the friend who is always by your side and does what he can. Juniper is unreliable because you never know how much of your hand you can play before your discard it to maybe see new options. Maybe you can play down as close to 0 as you can or you discard a hand full of supporters and vs seekers. I do agree if it were draw 4 cards, it would see more play.
IMO Juniper is not unreliable because it gets you a fresh hand of 7. If that deck which is so technical only uses Tierno and Shaymin, you will still only have 8 draw cards at most which is low so you can`t rely completely on the two of them. Standard draw is what makes the deck more consistent with getting the cards you need. Tierno is less consistent because you get only 3 cards rather than other standard draw support which is normally 4-7. If tierno does get an extra card, that means a better standard format for all. In conclusion, Tierno will probably only be seen as a 1-3 card tech I n some decks like a multi stage two line deck to get the right caress you need, but will probably not see too much play for a long time too come.
To add some perspective, there was a time when "Draw three cards, discard one from your hand." was the standard draw card, run heavily in most decks (TV Reporter). Cheren and Tierno are a step up from this (no more discard clause!) but it is questionable whether or not this has kept up with overall power creep in the game. Perhaps we have gotten back to a point where recklessly discarding your hand isn't so reliably good that it becomes almost negligible, making room for these two... but I doubt it. They only matter when you are trying to build up a large hand/keep pieces of a particular combo in hand. That doesn't sound like how most current, strong decks operate; they have the option of doing that but aren't reliant upon it because of how easy it is for the field or hand to change radically.
I agree that strong deck don't operate in that manner. My point is should they be operating in that manner? Are we are stuck on the expanded way of thinking? In standard, it is harder to shuffle ones hand, unless being judged. Because Ace trainer is situational, the player goes to judge. The problem with judge is that it's not like N. I say this because Seimitoad with judge should see an up tick in the results. I'm not seeing an uptick in the deck. Instead, I'm seeing that Judge is a risk play for both players. Which means there are lower odds for both players for it to work out.
My kiddo played a single copy tierno in cities and he said it was handy. It was handier to have 10 cards in his hand than 4 off birch or 4 off judge. Having said that, he still runs a single copy of judge, and he said that came handy too, because when he was bout to deck, he judged and shuffled the cards back to the deck.
The idea is always consistency, inconsistency should come off of risk play cards. I'm almost to the point, because of the shaymin/unown/hoopa draw support cards that judge and birch can bring less consistency to the deck when played often because of the randomness of the cards. Where Tierno brings more because of hand size.
Perhaps? I'm allowing for the possibility, but if someone forces me to come to a conclusion based on my currently available information, I would say "No. The current strategies are time tested having been established since the beginning of the game. We are close to the lowest common denominator of how decks function." I wouldn't bet my life on it, but while there are instances where I would prefer to have a Cheren or Tierno handy, that is true of many cards. When it comes to general usage a card has to be pretty bad to not be something a player wishes he or she had been running on occasion, or would have run if space/consistency was not an issue.
I... don't follow.
Seismitoad-EX decks are focused on basically turning the game into solitaire: the person running Seismitoad-EX continues playing while your deck grinds to a halt. The reason the deck doesn't fair as well in Standard is not the lack of N (though that may be a factor) but primarily because of the loss of Virbank City Gym and Hypnotoxic Laser. Those two provide an easy way to up the effective damage of Quaking Punch and keep the current Active stranded and unable to attack while you do it. Seismitoad-EX decks are usually very resource dependent so I would not expect them to rely heavily on Judge... just like they have to lay off N if they take Prizes very quickly while successfully keeping the opponent locked down.
Okay. As usual, I can't offer examples from competitive play because the only reason I am still playing is the PTCGO. My general experience on the PTCGO is that while I might sometimes desire to just draw three or four cards, it doesn't balance out that I'd have to give up something else I am already using in order to make room for Tierno or Cheren. With specific respect to draw supporters, Judge is proving useful enough I am tempted to include one in Expanded, for when I absolutely need to shuffle both players hands and I can't take the risk of the number varying based on Prizes.
Professor Birch is usually my preferred alternative draw for Standard. No, I'm not completely happy with it but I need a shuffle-and-draw Supporter so I can't just try to rely Professor Sycamore (and VS Seeker) alone. Obviously when it only draws four cards, that is usually bad (sometimes I do use it to avoid deck out) but when it draws seven, it is better than a Cheren or Tierno. At a glance, that seems like an unfair comparison; I need to consider both results, don't I?
Half true; there have been multiple times when timely flipping was a major factor of who won an event. A bad player wasn't going to luck into a win, but you'd see roughly the same pool of skilled players making it to the top cut, but instead of apparent skill ultimately determining things, it would come down to the flips. >_<
Judge adds disruption; this should not be ignored. Professor Birch can offer even better consistency... when you're lucky and unfortunately as contradictory as that sounds, we really have seen that in past formats (as already stated). No matter which of these three we use, the rest of the deck will matter as well. This is where Cheren/Tierno simply growing your hand backfires, because Shaymin-EX has been picking up most of the slack since it released.
Team aqua and magma grunt both discard a card and draw three and if you discarded a team aqua/magma pokemon, you draw an extra card, so this could lead to drawing four because like @Otaku stated, there was TV Reporter and compared to Team aqua/magma grunt which discarding a team magma/aqua pokemon means drawing 4. I'm hoping these facts are true because I want some more draw in standard which could happen. Simple Answer: 3 to discard 1--} then, draw three--}now 4 to discard 1--}(possible future card) draw 4 with no drawback.
A supporter card where you discard a card from your hand to draw 4 would definitely be an interesting idea, though there is the issue that it then nullifies Aqua/Magma grunt (though there have been cases of this before, ie Professor's Letter and Energy Search). They could however fix this by making it another discard X such as "discard an energy card from your hand, then draw 4 cards".
Sorry. Siesmitoad EX is a two fold strategy besides accelerating damage with V/L and keeping you item lock, there was actual second strategy that was going on with the card.
The second strategy was N. The idea was that any deck contained 19 to 26 items cards, if the opponent went up on prize cards you could N and force them to draw into item cards. By drawing into item cards you basically killed the opponents ability to draw out. Because siesmitoad is one of the only pokemon to take advantage of that concept, more than any other pokemon in the meta, it becomes devastating. It is reason why the card is hard to play against. Basically, there are few decks that implement 2 different strategies with such simple mechanics. Most decks it takes two or three cards to get the second strategy off. With Siesmitoad, it took one card N.
Shaymin EX/unown/hoopa was created, complimented with more efficient attackers. To the contrary, we would not see the true advantage of these cards until new standard meta.
In standard, the first strategy of V/L is out. The second strategy is very viable. By using judge/red card you can force your opponent to draw into items. In any one deck, there runs 19 to 26 items cards, which is 1/3 of the deck, 33% chance. 33% is pretty good odds. Siesmitoad EX is still the best card to take advantage of the strategy. Unfortunately, now, you have draw support cards that are no longer items. Because of this draw support, it supports the theory that the second tactic is not advantageous as it once was. If it the second tactic was strong, Seimitoad/Judge/red card would be a top tier deck. Currently, it is not.
My theory is that there are few ways to shuffle the deck in standard, so why not take more cards. Why force yourself to take four. Because there really isn't a good mechanic to block it at this point. Matter of fact the only mechanic to block it is the players decision to take four. Just thoughts.
I... am starting to get it. I think. >.>
Plenty of times I've proven I'm not the greatest of players: I freely admit that at my best I am roughly average (maybe a little above) and usually I'm a little below average. I hate to say it but I am still a little confused and I think it boils down to semantics and perhaps a slightly different experience against the deck. So the primary strategy is locking down your opponent's Items to slow/stop your opponent's capacity to set-up as well as deny the opponent some of his/her own disruption options*, while slowly taking KOs. Even with Virbank City Gym and Hypnotoxic Laser** the deck was slow taking Prizes when compared with the metagame norm.
Then I would count the secondary strategy of Seismitoad-EX decks as additional denial. Maybe I'm just fixated on certain Seismitoad-EX decks, but what usually leaves me in a lurch is the Seismitoad-EX player denying me attacks by discarding my in play Energy, leaving my Active Asleep (via Hypnotoxic Laser) or retroactively by using Super Scoop Up and/or retreating into another attacker to keep me from finally KOing a Seismitoad-EX. After that we get using N to throw an opponent's Items back into the deck, though Ghetsis does a better job of that (maybe that is a bad play in general?). The trick with N never registered as a major part of the deck to me, because something similar is done by pretty much any deck using N (if it will disrupt the opponent in a timely manner, do it even if you're hitting your own hand hard). My record against Seismitoad-EX decks is far worse than my general record, so maybe that is why the opponent using N when I've got a large hand seems more likely to make no difference or to backfire than to help?
* Enhanced Hammer, Hypnotoxic Laser, etc.
** Never heard it referred to as V/L before but by the time I finished reading your post I felt like an idiot for not getting it right away =P