Discussion Tierno VS Professor Birch's Observations

[poke4trade]

I... am starting to get it. I think. >.> The trick with N never registered as a major part of the deck to me, because something similar is done by pretty much any deck using N (if it will disrupt the opponent in a timely manner, do it even if you're hitting your own hand hard). My record against Seismitoad-EX decks is far worse than my general record, so maybe that is why the opponent using N when I've got a large hand seems more likely to make no difference or to backfire than to help?

Honestly, I know I this sounds off, but more opponents lost on the second strategy versus the first, because it was a far easier strategy to achieve. It only took one card, N. A lot of them however didn't know item lock was so easy to achieve. They were playing N because, well, that whats you do. N, in combination with seismitoad has a 33% chance that the opponent will dead draw on next turn. That is high, almost darn near as high as the shiftry deck stats. And not to get into it, but pokemon finds that stat acceptable, which I'm like you, I don't like the stat at all.

The energy disruption just makes it all the more irritating. But even without the energy disruption, because it is random, it does not make it the top two strategies of the deck. The strategy would come in third because it is random. N is what made seismitoad very consistent last year + the fact there were no draw pokemon. All the other stuff in my opinion was just icing on the cake.

In my opinion, I think Seismitoad EX was made carelessly. I think the game developers have since realized their mistake and are doing everything to rectify the problem. Killing a trainer is one thing, but nerfing a pokemon EX really throws kinks into production lines and economics of company. They probably had output contracts with printing presses and opted to solve it via game mechanics. In the future, for standard play, I can see the card diminishing over time via new pokemon/supporters. I don't think they want another year of a 100,000 quacking punch's.

All a larger hand does is increase your probability of drawing into a supporter or having the supporter when item locked.

I did ask my kiddo about Tierno and how he played it. He said he would ultra ball out for shaymin/hoopa, draw up 6, then tierno to take nine. He said it really helped with mega turbo. I did ask if he wanted try another card (birch), and he said no. I think Tierno worked for that deck at the time.

 

[Otaku]

Maybe I am just not skilled, intelligent or informed enough but I am not following your line of reasoning at all. There are some terms I tried to discuss as being confusing, such as subdividing what is basically the strategy of the typical Seismitoad-EX deck and trying to paint them as separate strategies as well as ranking them when in fact they are ultimately useless without each other and/or apply to general usage of the card in question. Why does Seismitoad-EX mean an opponent has a 33% chance of drawing dead off next turn? What about the cards drawn off of N in the first place against an opponent that likely already has a dead hand? How do we subtract out the general usefulness N provides in terms of disruption to what is specific to using it alongside Item lock?

Shiftry (NXD) in a proper build had far, far better odds of winning than that and on the very first turn of the game.

I don't think Seismitoad-EX was carelessly made, I just think the developers don't care about such things anymore. Short version of a long rant: players aren't the only ones buying the Pokémon TCG, are likely not even the main focus and it might be easier to attract new players via the Yu-Gi-Oh route (gimmicks and faster gameplay so you can just spam games until you win) than keep the old with balanced, satisfying gameplay.

All a larger hand does is increase your probability of drawing into a supporter or having the supporter when item locked.

With respect to the draw off of N the reason one must be careful when using N while maintaining Item lock is yes you're likely throwing a bunch of Items that your opponent cannot use back into his or her deck so that all of his or her new draws will once again individually have a high likelihood of being dead (that is, Item) draws, but you also give additional chances to draw in doing so while potentially shrinking the hand so that he or she can pull off a Shaymin-EX to draw, toss fewer important cards with Professor Sycamore, etc.

I did ask my kiddo about Tierno and how he played it. He said he would ultra ball out for shaymin/hoopa, draw up 6, then tierno to take nine. He said it really helped with mega turbo. I did ask if he wanted try another card (birch), and he said no. I think Tierno worked for that deck at the time.

Everything your kid did, he could accomplish with other draw cards. With the information provided, he could easily be declining Professor Birch because just as we may be dismissing Tierno because we don't understand how to use it well, he thinks the same of Professor Birch. You can Ultra Ball for Shaymin-EX (either directly or through Hoopa-EX), Bench the Shaymin-EX to use Setup and draw up to six cards. Yes if one's hand had valuable cards to save for next turn, using a Tierno to just draw three more and end is fine. If you didn't draw well, especially if it is the awkward "These aren't bad cards I just don't need them right this second." then shuffling and drawing four (Judge, "tails" flip on Professor Birch), drawing five (Shauna) and drawing seven ("heads" on Professor Birch).

I'd like to point out that if Shauna drew six or Professor Birch was a five/seven split, I don't think there would be a debate. The format is such that most decks are built to just keep drawing and using more and more cards, then drawing a smaller hand that might have new cards is apt to be better than holding onto a large hand for what you might do with it next turn. Always? Of course not, but as a general strategy yes. The game is very fast right now; conserving resources for late game now means like turns five through eight, not turns 10 and after. Again not all, but most decks need to get as much of their set-up on the field (or in the discard pile!) ASAP.

This does not mean that Tierno is without its uses; indeed despite what I just said it doesn't actually settle the debate. I am just saying that going on what I have I still can't settle the debate even in my own mind. XP