What's Wrong with this Format?

[DNA]

Ah yes, I've seen quite a lot more ZPST around lately. It's surprising what great synergy Tornadus has with the deck. Even so...I'm not sure if it changes anything much about this format.
By the way:

On PokeGym, it says ZPST and Stage 1s have the most wins. Stage 1s has 1.

I see a grammatical error with this statement; care to edit?

 

[Card Slinger J]

Too few good decks that are playable, too few really good I/S/S floating around (we've got Collector, Catcher, PokeCom, and the ever-powerful Junk Arm), and you basically either have to play a good deck or everyone laughs at you.
I won't lie. I went into Worlds being totally excited for a new experience, and left despising the TCG with a passion. It was only due to one of my friends at League that he convinced me to stay with it (I went into a funk for at least 2 weeks).

THANK YOU, someone here that has enough common sense of what I've been going through. I feel ya man, this format hasn't been easy for both of us and I probably take it you're tight on money as well due to the economy, am I right?

Unless Noble Victories actually gives us a lot more deck choices to choose from, instead of things that would be good except they just keep getting killed by cheap annoying elephants (I'm looking at you, Hydreigon) - yeah, it won't be fun anymore.

God I hope so we NEED more deck choices to choose from, it's bad enough that Pokemon USA keeps cutting alot of good cards out of each set just for the next one and I wonder why we've been 2 sets behind Japan recently. The problem with this game is that they keeping making Basic and Stage 1 Pokemon attack for low energy cost for like 50+ damage, that's what's really been hurting the game. It isn't Pokemon Catcher as some people make it out to be. Yes I've complained about Catcher before but I agree with everyone else that it isn't as bad as it was hyped to be due to the checks we have with Vileplume/Gothitelle.

I'll stick with the game, but I can safely say that MD-CoL was one of the greatest formats we've had. Sure, Luxchomp was a prominent deck, but it didn't have high matchups against everything, and it was possible to beat it (I myself loved playing against Luxchomp as it was so easy to watch them squirm), and most any good strong card had a chance (Gyarados, Gengar, Blastoise, Arceus, Magnezone, and the list goes on and on), but now?

Spoken like a true player, I remember I used to run Charizard in MD-COL before Pokemon Catcher was released and it was a really fun deck that I used to dominate with at Battle Roads and Cities and now with the rotation and the change of the metagame things just haven't been fun and consistent anymore. Yeah now I know why my old pal SPIRE_FAN was getting frustrated with this format as well.

Yanmega. Everywhere.

I loathe all dragonflies now.

Amen brother.

Though it is most widely seen, its not the BDIF. On PokeGym, it says ZPST and Stage 1s have the most wins. Stage 1s has 1.

Many decks can beat it too. I've beat it with ZPST.

It really is hard to say If there is a true BDIF in this format, judging from J-Wittz's most recent episode 6 ZPST decks topped in the Masters Division including 3-4 TyRam decks where there were just 1 of each other popular deck played by other players. That is roughly the amount of decks people were playing in that area out of I'm gonna guess around 32 people which is an amazing turnout for a BR IMO. And incase you don't know what MegaZord is it's Yanmega/Zoroark unless I'm missing a key piece there.

 

[Glace]

Lets focus on the discussion.

Ah yes, I've seen quite a lot more ZPST around lately. It's surprising what great synergy Tornadus has with the deck. Even so...I'm not sure if it changes anything much about this format.

Tornadus does make a difference because its a great Donphan counter. I've seen TyRam players teching it into there decks even.

 

[Card Slinger J]

The only problem I have with Tornadus is that it sucks in MewBox If you don't run Yanmega. Then it also becomes a problem of energy consistency and If you're running Plume then you can't use Energy Exchanger to swap out for that Rainbow or Grass you need for Mew Prime to Mass Attack with Jumpluff in the Lost Zone. I know what you're going to say, "Then don't play MewBox". And I'm like is that really your best response?

There is a Donphan counter however there isn't one for Yanmega aside from Zekrom and Magnezone that's easy to get ahold of. Thundurus isn't that consistent either, heck you're probably better off with Elektrik from Noble Victories cause while benched it you can get 2 energies on it and by getting it Active it will be setup to do 100 to Yanmega putting it in 10 HP range and If you have Trainer Lock going they can't use Max Potion. I can see it now, Elektrik combined with Muk's Sludge Drag's Poison for that KO. Amazing! 0_o

 

[Celebi23]

The first statement is irrelevant to this topic and the second statement simply isn't true. Megazord is the BDIF right now, and if not BDIF, then the most widely seen.

The first statement is not irrelevant because the delta formats are widely considered the best the game has ever had so I was curious if you'd played in those because you were saying SP formats were the best the game has had. I was wondering if you'd played before SP was out or not.

Megazord is a horrible play. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person to have a win with it yet, so obviously it's not BDIF. It can't ever beat Gothitelle or Vileplume once they're setup, Megazone is hardly favorable, Zekrom is even if they don't go first, Reshiram is really rough, and Magneboar is really its only good matchup.

I'll respond to Card Slinger J's post later; I'm sort of in a hurry now.

 

[DNA]

The first statement is not irrelevant because the delta formats are widely considered the best the game has ever had so I was curious if you'd played in those because you were saying SP formats were the best the game has had. I was wondering if you'd played before SP was out or not.

I detect an SP hater. (And before you ask...no, I never played with an SP deck myself.) SPs were a fun strategy - you trade HP for maneuverability. Not like I ever minded.

Furthermore, you're acting as if I think MD-CoL was the best format. I'm not. I'm saying it's one of the best. And...although Luxchomp was a big deck back then, around the time of TM and CoL it was not overbearing in presence at all. I mean, sure you had to watch for it, but that was it. I think the only bad thing about MD-CoL was that we lost Roseanne's Research. (But we did have Collector, so you could say it was a fair trade.)

If you really must know, I didn't play at all during any Hoenn formats save for the very tail end of Holon Phantoms-on. I got disenchanted with the TCG around the e-Series because of how displeasing the cards looked and didn't start up again until I heard that Leagues actually still existed. (By then, it was around the start of Mysterious Treasures prereleases.) Even so, the time at which I started is totally irrelevant to this topic - we are here to discuss the HGSS-on format, not when DNA started playing again.

 

[Zyflair]

I'm not playing in this format simply because I got too used to the speed that DP-on offered. I played some RS matches in HGSS-on, and I (personally, before some of you people jump me) found that the format isn't that limited. Celebi is also correct in the fact that the cardpool is normally small to prevent disasters such as Sablelock in the MD-on era. Sure, a larger cardpool allowed more possibilities and rogues, but it also gave metagame decks possible combinations for even further domination. In any case, I hardly play the TCG at this point, so my views don't have as much merit in terms of experience.

But really, a debate about whether a format is good or bad simply is an argument of preference. E-series was great fun, DP-on was pretty awesome with the speed, but I didn't bother spend pointless money to play in a game that I felt could be better. Eh, the Pokemon TCG will thrive anyway.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Well If it doesn't get any better after Noble Victories I'm going to be disappoint. Be nice If they'd put the Psycho Drive and Hail Blizzard cards in Noble Victories but knowing Pokemon USA holding back cards for future sets I know they won't. So what are we getting out of Noble Victories that should help fix the metagame?

* N - Really amazing draw supporter and I prefer this over Judge simply cause If you're running it in a deck that falls behind on prizes it can be a devastating hand disruption piece to help win you the game. Maybe even pair it with Weavile for Claw Snag I guess.

* Terrakion - A better version of Bouffalant, it can actually go toe to toe with Zekrom or even Magnezone and do 180 damage for 2 energy as long as they've KO'ed one of your Pokemon on their last turn. The 4 retreat is a pain but aside from that it has 130 HP for a Basic which is nice, and Grass isn't played that much these days which is another plus.

* Super Rod - Night Maintenance reprinted, sort of for decks that don't run Trainer Lock. Recovery that saves your Supporter for turn is amazing, definitely worth running If you're not playing Vileplume however Gothitelle can use it like crazy for sheer consistency.

* Eviolite - This in MewBox combined with using Leaf Guard from Jumpluff LZ'ed is amazingly good against Donphan but only If you can play it before you Trainer Lock. Drawing into an Eviolite by T1 or T2 is tricky but it can be done.

* Victini - It's ability alone almost makes Sharpedo for Strip Bare playable for a nice hand disruption strategy. Expect to see this being tested for that combo among others. Some people have been considering using it's Ability with the new Vanilluxe that uses coin flips on attacks thus increasing your chances to paralyze the Defending Pokemon.

 

[Celebi23]

Yep Victini will make the format even more interesting. Somewhat more luckbased, but certainly a lot more interesting. Buy your Sharpedos now!

Evolite will basically just make Zekrom better - it'll help Reshiram too, but I'm not sure how relevant the deck will be now that Zekrom has Tornadus and only hits itself for 20 and still gets up T1.

It will be interesting to see how much play Super Rod sees - most decks are running 6 or more attackers already and if they aren't they're running Vileplume. However, it could help Magnezone out seeing as it also helps its decking out problem.

N will be good, but Judge will see play as long as Yanmega sees play. This also makes Tropical Beach a lot more playable, which is bad.

Terrakion is way worse than Bouffalant. Bouffalant is good because you can drop it with a DCE out of nowhere as an automatic check to RDL for decks that don't have it. It also does some nice fast damage. Terrakion takes 2 energy and takes a specific type of energy, which automatically ruins it. I'll admit to it having better typing, but it's also twice as much of a scary start than Bouffalant. 4 retreat is horrible and a huge stalling liability.

The meta won't change much except that we'll get some gamble decks added to the mix and that the slower decks and decks in general get an interesting comeback aspect in the form of N, which should make for a lot of great games. But it's not like the meta needs fixing anyway. N makes Lostgar more playable too, which should be an interesting deck if Vileplume and Gothitelle stay big. The Zekrom autoloss is a big problem though.

A card I think deserves some mention is Durant - it has a lot going for it now, between N, Twins and a lot of slower decks. The only bad matchup it really has is Zekrom and to an extent Vileplume (and timing out). Of course, any deck can beat it depending on each deck's start.

 

[Domo]

1. Here is the answere to beat the meta! Lanturn prime, shure it gets 1 shot by donphan but it also does the same and it kills reshiram and yanmega and emboar and typhlotion--i dont care what people say--Lanturn is a beast of a card(very underated)
2.People are to afraid to run anything week to fighting becuse of donphan--NEWSFLASH not everyone in the word runs it-shure its a popular card but geez people act like they are scard of it. Have some fun.
3. Basics with 100+hp is un-cool.
4. yanmega prime is like 40+ dollers (i realy hate this because i liked this card before everyone and everyone thought it was bad and now those same people are using it... un-cool)
--Though even with all this i still like this format(i came into playing like a month before COL came out)---though i could do without pokemon catcher(i know its a "double edged sword" but c'mon its just annoying)

 

[Shaymin Lv.X]

This format looks actually a lot like MD-CL/BW:
Reshiplosion = Gyarados (Both simple to use decks and pretty much straight forward to play) or Magnerock (Almost the same strategies)
Yanmega = Luxray GL Lv.X in terms of cost.
Mewbox/stage ones varients = SP Toolbox
ZPS(T) = Uxiedonk/Sabledonk
Trainer lock with reuniclus = Vilegar(Both are strong with trainer lock but trainer lock now has a few weaknesses) or Dialgachomp.
Megazord = Luxchomp (both are fast and can attack on T2)

 

[DNA]

power creep power creep power creep

I'd have to say I definitely agree with Celebi23's post regarding Noble Victories. We'll be getting a lot of cards which have great potential for changing the format one way or the other; whether or not they help the underdog or just keep beefing up the 130+ HP Basics is yet to be seen.

The card that has the most underdog-support potential is, as you're probably well aware, Fliptini. You can make decks like Sharpedo playable, and it beefs up things like Vanilluxe as well.

Imma gonna love running N in my Lostgar when it comes out (and yes, the Zekrom autoloss is a huge problem). Then again, Lostgar has a hard time with anything that runs Junk Arm.

 

[dmaster]

What's wrong with this format?

The 1st Turn balance. Fix that and I would love this format to bits.

dmaster out.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Yeah Jason K was talking about that too on PokeGym with his thread, "Restoring skill to the Pokemon TCG." The problem with the Turn 1 Rules is that it's up to Japan or TPCi to fix it not Pokemon USA since they are the ones that usually translate and distribute the cards in English and other areas worldwide.

Banning overpowered cards in the current format is an option but still there's no point since rotation would push them out of the format anyway. The better idea is errata, by errating cards you still make them playable but by changing their game text instead. He also mentioned another thing...

Play more games, like I dunno have best 2 out of 3 per Round Swiss style? Players do complain about time limit but I don't care. So you end up playing one game per round instead of best 2 out of 3 and usually If you don't make the topcut in the 1st round you're going to be playing less. I would honestly love to see best 2 out of 3 Swiss If Pokemon USA can push for it to happen.

 

[DNA]

I would honestly love to see best 2 out of 3 Swiss If Pokemon USA can push for it to happen.

Please don't make my job harder and more annoying than it is already.

 

[Celebi23]

For the players, best 2 of 3 swiss matches or at the very least best 3 of 5 top cut matches would be one of the best things possible for luck reduction and promoting the best player winning.

Although 2-day battle roads and citites is just a crazy thought so I'm doubtful this will ever happen, at least at the lower level tournaments.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Please don't make my job harder and more annoying than it is already.

Why are you in favor of shorter games? If I recall Magic: The Gathering goes by
Best 2 out of 3 Swiss in PTQ's and Qualifier Events as well don't they?

 

[DNA]

Why are you in favor of shorter games? If I recall Magic: The Gathering goes by
Best 2 out of 3 Swiss in PTQ's and Qualifier Events as well don't they?

I am primarily a judge, not a player. If people play more games in one round, that makes my job a lot harder (considering that the minimum attendance we have is somewhere around 45, Cities rise as high as 80, and - wow I am so glad I play in States instead of judge, phew!).

More games means more busywork for me.

 

[Card Slinger J]

I wonder If Magic Judges have it much harder than Pokemon Judges...

 

[Zyflair]

None cares.

Lower level tournaments clearly will not be able to last two days: that would deter competitive playing on the low level quite a bit.