Discussion Why Banning DCE is stupid-the score settled

[crystal_pidgeot]

Yet again the issue isn't with DCE, it's with the attacks themselves. Sure, DCE can 2HKO everything on Zoro, but only because of how Zoro's attack works. DCE can also do 20 damage when attached to a Slugma.

It's not DCE that's inherently broken, it's the attacks and their unfair cost.

Correct, but DCE indirectly is the issue. Zoroark is just symptom of the card existing. Remember, X-Ball like attacks are a problem too because they can use it. Gardevoir-GX is easy to setup and can get five energy in a turn with DCE. Zoro isn't the only good DCE attacker. You have to remember that DCE wasn't designed to be used by every type in the game, kind of how like in the main game, Surf is more powerful coming from a Vaporeon and not a Lugia.

Since the attack cost won't change, banning DCE is the easiest way to balance all those cards. Remember they can make a DCE Prism Star if they really need to keep it around.

These attacks can be very powerful, but not necessarily. Look at Nosepass BCR! These attacks would be too OP for a single energy attachment, while they would be unplayable for 2 energy (not CC). DCE is necessary to give attacks a 1.5-energy cost.

A lot of cards are bad. Zoroark could be [D][C], but it isn't.

 

[Otaku]

@Lanstar I did not quote everything in your comment. If you believe I distorted what you were saying, instead of just challenging it, please let me know!

The [CC] cost is no more a blessing than the attacks that revolve around it. Lots of cards have this cost, but they are anything but broken. It is just that the very few that do have it have proven to be so broken, that too many players just play it as the only energy needed. That's just a sign that those cards are broken, not DCE.

Is it really? I think you are oversimplifying things. I want to say that clearly, the broken card is the one that is involved in all the different broken combos but it really all boils down to game mechanics. It isn't the decks that can get by only by running DCE that worries me. It is what certain cards can do with DCE, but even more than that it is how DCE constrains future card design coupled with...

So to me, DCE doesn't need to go - The game creators just need to have more discipline to making attacks that revolve around it as a single attachment. And no doubt: Zoroark-GX, Night March, Seismitod-EX, among other cards were big mistakes in card creation because of how they abused the 'single attach' clause with their attacks.

...how the designers cannot be trusted not to "break" things. If the powers-that-be were infallible, there would be no Ban List in the first place.

Yet again the issue isn't with DCE, it's with the attacks themselves. Sure, DCE can 2HKO everything on Zoro, but only because of how Zoro's attack works. DCE can also do 20 damage when attached to a Slugma.
It's not DCE that's inherently broken, it's the attacks and their unfair cost.

You have made an assertion, but you haven't proven it. To argue against it, one just has to reverse what you said; the problem isn't [CC] attacks, it is how DCE allows that Energy requirement to be met with a single manual Energy attachment from the hand. The difference is, if we just got rid of the attacks with [CC] requirements that seemed to be abusing DCE, we'd just be waiting for the next one to release... because it keeps happening. If DCE were allowed to rotate from Standard and then was banned in Expanded, we only have to worry about the developers changing their mind and re-releasing DCE or creating something oddly similar.

 

[Latte1504]

You have to remember that DCE wasn't designed to be used by every type in the game, kind of how like in the main game, Surf is more powerful coming from a Vaporeon and not a Lugia.

You continually bring up this argument. But let me ask this: was the Pokemon TCG originally designed well? I would argue definitely not. Powerful Trainers inherently broke the game. Additionally, you seem to constantly forget about a very potent grass type out of base set that abused DCE: Scyther.

As a complete aside to Scyther, you also think that Shaymin/Ultra Ball (specifically, you argue Shaymin) broke the game. How do you feel about Uxie from Legends Awaken or Claydol from Great Encounters.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

You continually bring up this argument. But let me ask this: was the Pokemon TCG originally designed well? I would argue definitely not. Powerful Trainers inherently broke the game. Additionally, you seem to constantly forget about a very potent grass type out of base set that abused DCE: Scyther.

As a complete aside to Scyther, you also think that Shaymin/Ultra Ball (specifically, you argue Shaymin) broke the game. How do you feel about Uxie from Legends Awaken or Claydol from Great Encounters.

It wasn't designed well, but my argument still stands. DCE was a thing but the sheer amount of energy removal killed it. I believe Otaku is better qualified to talk about that than me so I'll skip it.

I say Shaymin, sure but also the new Pikachu clone that does the same thing. Ultra Ball enables the combo. Uxie was powerful as well (as was Claydol) but the main difference is the power of trainer cards back then. Trainers can now win you games as opposed to just aiding you. Deck building back then was a lot different than it is now. A lot like how DCE wasn't as powerful back then like it is now.

 

[Latte1504]

A lot like how DCE wasn't as powerful back then like it is now.

Garchomp C Lv X? That card was able to rule its format.

Aside from that, could you make a list of your current grievances against the game? I just want to see and try to respond, either by historical evidence in this game or others.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Garchomp C Lv X? That card was able to rule its format.

Aside from that, could you make a list of your current grievances against the game? I just want to see and try to respond, either by historical evidence in this game or others.

I'm not including Colorless Pokemon since DCE was more than likely made for them to make up for the lack of hitting for weakness. As for a list of things? Its mostly just the game balance. It would be too big a list to make. I just want them to make less cards and make what they do make useful. Right now, this huge sets end up being a waste of paper.

 

[Lanstar]

Is it really? I think you are oversimplifying things. I want to say that clearly, the broken card is the one that is involved in all the different broken combos but it really all boils down to game mechanics.

It is only in 'broken' combos because of the cards that have the broken attacks. So many non-broken attacks use the card, too, and I believe we should preserve the countless worthwhile strategies that the card could be used for. As I said, the designers modeled attack costs of all cards since HGSS to take DCE into account.

Also, you also have to think about non-DCE-based strategies that are extremely powerful, too. Since they would not be affected by the ban at all, watch as they might swallow up the meta, and people could end up calling them broken. Yet people probably wouldn't ban a basic energy card - they would want to ban energy accelerator, or something else instead. Such a double standard that would be.

the designers cannot be trusted not to "break" things. If the powers-that-be were infallible, there would be no Ban List in the first place.

So in other words, you want to ban a card because you don't trust the designers to implement the attack costs properly?

That sounds more like a "grudge ban" - and I don't reasons like that to ban a card.

I've talked about "Lock Cards" like Greedy Dice and Lost March, in how they really lock certain game mechanics. I call them "mistake cards", too: They were just badly designed cards upon being introduced, as they really did restrain game mechanics. But DCE does not constrain much of any card design that much more than a basic energy would. It is up to the designers to suggest how powerful attacks should be to the energy provided - and it is equally as easy to make broken attacks with even a single basic energy as well.

DCE is not "mistake card": The abusers of energy - DCE or not - are the real mistake cards to begin with, as the designers failed to balance energy cost to the powers of attacks and abilities. I'd rather ban/nerf those abusers instead to fix mistakes instead of gutting the game of a huge resource countless cards rely on for potential.

 

[Otaku]

@Lanstar

I disagree with most of what you just said. I want to be clear it is not a "Rargh how dare you!" kind of stupid disagree. Just a "Well, guess there isn't anymore to discuss." because where we disagree is kind of fundamental.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

The problem with Zoroark's attack is not DCE existing, it's that Zoroark's attack is too powerful to be CC. It's the game designers' fault fore giving it a CC attack cost, not the fact that DCE exists (and, remember Pokemon want it to exist).
To everyone who thinks the Gen 1 format was good because DCE was balanced, think again. The Gen 1 format sucked-there were way more powerful Trainers than there are in Expanded now. You could be item locked T1, all your energy could be removed, Pokemon catcher existed without errata, not to mention Muk and Aerodactyl.

 

[Otaku]

To everyone who thinks the Gen 1 format was good because DCE was balanced, think again. The Gen 1 format sucked-there were way more powerful Trainers than there are in Expanded now. You could be item locked T1, all your energy could be removed, Pokemon catcher existed without errata, not to mention Muk and Aerodactyl.

For the record, I never said that Base Set, Base Set - Jungle, Base Set - Fossil, Base Set - Gym Heroes, or Base Set - Gym Challenge were "good" Formats. I have noticed some others saying or possibly implying that, which is why I wanted to say that.

What I believe I have said is that DCE was not a balanced card during this time, though I initially thought it was because of counters like Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal, as well as how it didn't feel like a requirement for decks at the time. I should emphasize "feel"; in hindsight it was vital for certain decks and good in most. It is circumstantial, but I believe it proving so useful in the face of S/ER, low-Energy attackers, Rain Dance, etc. says something.

 

[Mega Mewthree...]

I don't believe that the problem is simply DCE or DCE on Zoroark-GX but the combination of Zoroark-Gx's high HP, overwhelming ability, Stage 1 status, and decent attack.
Naganadel-GX has a similar attack for 1 energy but it is reduced to only Ultra Beast Pokemon. Zoroark is allowed a combination of any pokemon to fuel its attack (Tapu Lele-GX, Macargo, Naganadel, Decidueye-GX, Alolan ninetales-GX, etc).

 

[Silence]

I see both sides of this argument. However, I would argue that since the HGSS era, DCE has been kind of a problem child. Even back then, when LuxChomp and DialgaChomp dominated, DCE on Garchomp was overpowered. I look at a card like Upper Energy, which acted as a balanced version of DCE as something much more acceptable.

At this point, however, with 8 years of design with DCE specifically in mind, its banning could lead to some problems. Even if DCE is banned, cards like Zoroark are going to remain a problem. IMO, the best thing Pokemon could do, though I doubt it will ever happen, is to actually ROTATE sets in Expanded, while also putting effort into fostering eternal formats (other than just Legacy on PTCGO - I LOVE Legacy! Why can't we allow for more sanctioned events with interesting formats such as these?)

If DCE was banned from Expanded AND Dark Patch and other problem cards were rotated, we might not have such a mess with all of the truly unfun lock decks dominating the meta. I can see people's argument that they don't want their cards to become useless after rotation - but we have to remember, we dealt with that for YEARS and I would argue that the original EX era and the DP-HGSS era were some of the most balanced and fun in the history of the game. Back then, once a card rotated, sure, it was useless, but at least Standard (Modified) was fresh!

I guess I've just felt like the power creep that has been present since all the way back to Next Destinies has only become a bigger and bigger issue with the way Pokemon has treated the Expanded format - the Wild West was fun for a little while, but now it's grown completely out of control. If you're going to invest in some kind of eternal format, you should do so properly, and Expanded has always felt kind of half-baked. And if half of the major P!P events needed to get to Worlds are in this format, you can't just let it become so untamed.

Further development and refinement of Expanded and other eternal formats would make ban lists and rotations way less of a big deal, allowing ALL formats to remain fresh, and most importantly, FUN! This is how other major card games like Magic are able to thrive in a multi-format environment. The meta-game is just as important as the game itself, where different cards do different things depending on the format they are played in. Expanded has ALWAYS felt like "the older good cards you aren't allowed to play in Standard anymore + new stuff."

Just my two cents.

TL;DR, the DCE/Zoroark debate is just a symptom of a bigger issue when it comes to Expanded, and Pokemon should really put some significant effort to refine it and foster other eternal formats.

 

[Otaku]

@Silence

Wait, I'm allowed to actually address the underlying pacing issues in the game?

Yes, I'm kidding. I chose not to get into my more detailed stance because I thought it would confuse the issue. Maybe it will, but I largely agree with Silence. Well, I think I do; I could easily be misunderstanding the situation as well. XP

The (relatively) short version is that I believe the Pokémon TCG has always had an issue with "pacing" and that is not based on my personal preferences for gameplay, but looking at how game mechanics were intended to be balanced against each other have never truly worked as intended. The fact that Evolution has only ever seemed "balanced" by the specifics of the cardpool is what I offer as evidence, though I can see how some would claim it to merely be circumstantial. Sometimes the cards are designed so that running a Stage 2 is its own reward; usually, that is the case with Basics. What the game needs to be, however, is for neither to be a reward, just simply alternate paths. The designers have tried that as well but usually trying to give bonuses to the more time and resource demanding Evolutions or by penalizing Basics.

I believe the "trick" is adjusting the game's pace during those first few turns so that no Stage can do a lot until even Stage 2 Pokémon have had a chance to hit the field. That when you choose to run a Basic that doesn't Evolve, you'll need the extra card slots to do jobs that the Evolving Basic and Evolving Stage 1 in a Stage 2 deck covers. Fully Evolved Stage 1 Pokémon would be the natural in between; they'll enjoy an extra slot in the deck but need that slot to cover something the Stage 2 Evolution line is handling. Evolving Pokémon should never be seen as "filler". Throw in that each Pokémon needs to "know its role"... by which I mean the designers shouldn't create something that is both a great Bench-sitter and backup (let alone main) attacker or good opening and midgame attacker, etc.

Eh, probably already explained too much for a "short" version and not enough for a detailed one, but I'll stop there. If this is too much of a tangent, let me know... but it does explain why I think DCE, Max Elixir, Ether, Dark Patch, etc. stand in the way of better game pacing and thus better game balance. Even before we get to the risk they pose of eventual "broken" combos because the designers will forget to pre-nerf something, sooner or later.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

The (relatively) short version is that I believe the Pokémon TCG has always had an issue with "pacing" and that is not based on my personal preferences for gameplay, but looking at how game mechanics were intended to be balanced against each other have never truly worked as intended. The fact that Evolution has only ever seemed "balanced" by the specifics of the cardpool is what I offer as evidence, though I can see how some would claim it to merely be circumstantial. Sometimes the cards are designed so that running a Stage 2 is its own reward; usually, that is the case with Basics. What the game needs to be, however, is for neither to be a reward, just simply alternate paths. The designers have tried that as well but usually trying to give bonuses to the more time and resource demanding Evolutions or by penalizing Basics.

DCE benefits Stage 2s as much as it does Basics-look at Gardevoir GX! (Newgaleo as well, also Zoroark for Stage 1s.) There is absolutely a problem with pacing in this game but it has nothing to do with DCE whatsoever. Max Elixir, yes, but that isn't OP enough to deserve a ban.
To be fair though, your point about the game designers not being able to be trusted has just been proven right with the new Lt. Surge's Battle card.

 

[Silence]

@Otaku

Yes, it seems we pretty much agree. I wish Stage 2 decks could be like they used to be, but I don't know if we've gone too far for it ever to be again. Stage 2 decks pretty much died with the printing of cards like Mewtwo-EX and Darkrai-EX and the nerf to Rare Candy. Additionally, we have cards like Lysandre and Guzma, which took the ability of a previous BCIF, Luxray GL LV. X and made it a Supporter card. At least it isn't pre-errata Catcher, but that's not a high bar to hit.

The biggest problem is that in the game's current state, even the best Stage 2's can't hold a candle to the best, much easier to develop EX's and GX's. I again look to the Diamond and Pearl era, where SP's were dominant. That is the best retrospective IMO on "being a Basic Pokemon IS your advantage." The fact they were basic, combined with their engine, was why they were so good, but other decks like Gengar, Kingdra, etc. still stood a fighting chance, because once set up, cards like Gengar SF were inherently more powerful.

I will end this tangent here, as its getting off-topic. Again, I totally feel for both sides of this argument, but we need to accept that even if they ban Zoroark, DCE, or both, it won't fix the ultimate underlying issues with the power creep in this game as a whole. I still love it, and probably will until the day I die, but I don't think anyone can say the game is still the same one it was 12, 10, or even just 6 years ago.

 

[Otaku]

DCE benefits Stage 2s as much as it does Basics-look at Gardevoir GX! (Newgaleo as well, also Zoroark for Stage 1s.) There is absolutely a problem with pacing in this game but it has nothing to do with DCE whatsoever. Max Elixir, yes, but that isn't OP enough to deserve a ban.
To be fair though, your point about the game designers not being able to be trusted has just been proven right with the new Lt. Surge's Battle card.

We are discussing things in general terms; a specific example disproves an absolute claim, but I'm not making an absolute statement. I am not saying that every Basic Pokémon benefits more from Double Colorless Energy than every Stage 2 Pokémon. If I were, you'd have a point. I am sorry this is going to be another lengthy comment but I believe I have to explain certain things to you that (right or wrong) I took for granted that you knew. Forgive me; I've been playing this game a long time and it is easy to forget something that I've known for about 10 years could still be something it took me 10 years to recognize!

There are advantages inherent to being a Basic Pokémon that do not apply to being a Stage 2 in general. You can and will find exceptions to this in the actual cardpool; that does not mean it isn't true, it just means it isn't absolute. For example, Basic Pokémon have the benefit of being your opening Active Pokémon but Stage 2 Pokémon do not. Is that true of every Basic Pokémon when compared to every Evolution? No, which is why I didn't phrase it that way. I do not recall any Basic Pokémon which cannot serve as your opening Active, but there are some you might wish to run in even a highly competitive deck yet would also wish they could not be your opening Active (taking a mulligan would be preferable). On the Evolution side of things, Manectric (SM - Celestial Storm 52/168; SM - Black Star Promos SM130) and Talonflame (XY - Steam Siege 96/114) both have Abilities that allow you to play them as your Active Pokémon during setup.

So... treating different things identically does not often make them "equal". You have two people; both love chocolate but one is badly allergic and so cannot enjoy it. You give each a chocolate bar. You've done a kind thing to one and a cruel thing to the other. Plus, none of this changes the risk DCE creates for game design. This is where we simply disagree; I see an attack that costs [CC], and which seems "too good" with DCE, and I fault DCE. You see it, and fault that particular Pokémon. It is really the game's designers' fault, but I will tell you that I'm factoring that in with my stance. Any card can be made balanced or broken with the right card pool; we don't have infinite time or resources to find out what can balance all of this out, so I look for the most efficient solution; I believe that is allowing DCE to rotate from Standard Format play, then ban it from Expanded. This also gives both the players and the game's designers a chance to adjust to the change in a more gradual manner.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

So... treating different things identically does not often make them "equal". You have two people; both love chocolate but one is badly allergic and so cannot enjoy it. You give each a chocolate bar. You've done a kind thing to one and a cruel thing to the other. Plus, none of this changes the risk DCE creates for game design. This is where we simply disagree; I see an attack that costs [CC], and which seems "too good" with DCE, and I fault DCE. You see it, and fault that particular Pokémon. It is really the game's designers' fault, but I will tell you that I'm factoring that in with my stance. Any card can be made balanced or broken with the right card pool; we don't have infinite time or resources to find out what can balance all of this out, so I look for the most efficient solution; I believe that is allowing DCE to rotate from Standard Format play, then ban it from Expanded. This also gives both the players and the game's designers a chance to adjust to the change in a more gradual manner.

The most efficient solution does not mean the solution with fewest drawbacks. Banning DCE would create a very unhealthy meta where energy acceleration decks such as Ray and Blastoise would dominate very quickly.
Allowing DCE to rotate from Standard before any hypothetical ban would not solve the current problem in Expanded.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

DCE benefits Stage 2s as much as it does Basics-look at Gardevoir GX! (Newgaleo as well, also Zoroark for Stage 1s.) There is absolutely a problem with pacing in this game but it has nothing to do with DCE whatsoever.

DCE is a problem because of how the attacks are made. With the exception of Colorless Pokemon (who can't hit for weakness so they are balanced as a result), attacks that ae largely colorless on colored Pokemon remained weak. The problem now is these attacks are used more than the attacks that require specific energy. Gardy-GX is normally stacked with DCE over Fairy for example. Mewtwo-EX only used DCE and never used Psychic energy. This has always been true so DCE is the enabler for all this. DCE aside, these attacks are also used in energy acceleration decks simply because of how good the [C][C] cost is. Even Mega Mewtwo Y was more of the same. Banning DCE removes this design from the game or at least slows these decks down.

Max Elixir, yes, but that isn't OP enough to deserve a ban.
To be fair though, your point about the game designers not being able to be trusted has just been proven right with the new Lt. Surge's Battle card.

To be honest, Trainer based Energy acceleration shouldn't exist or at least exist the way it does and yeah, the designers cant be trusted but this is the game they want so play it that way.

The most efficient solution does not mean the solution with fewest drawbacks. Banning DCE would create a very unhealthy meta where energy acceleration decks such as Ray and Blastoise would dominate very quickly.

This wouldn't be a single card ban. Many things would need to be banned. I would argue at least 40 cards would need to be removed from the game and would argue for Standard as well. Blastoise is a fine card, just not with Archie but if they wanted to ban it, then they would need to ban all similar cards for the same reason. The main issue is like what was said, and that is the pacing of the game. Stage 2 Pokemon seem to exist to support big basics. Stage 1 Pokemon are still good since the time to remove them from play is so low. You can play four Zoura and evolve three of them if one is killed whereas you can play four Pidgey at kill at least two before the others become Pidgeot (giving Zoura and Pidgey the same in play time).

Also, the design of these decks are vastly different. A Stage 1 player doesn't need Rare Candy whereas the Stage 2 player needs to run them, meaning they can't run something else so everyone goes with the path of least resistance. On top of this, the weakness and resistance scaling is so bad, than decks weak to something can still win the match up and resistance means nothing. It almost feels like half the game works.

Allowing DCE to rotate from Standard before any hypothetical ban would not solve the current problem in Expanded.

Wrong. Allow it to rotate from Standard and change all card design with this decision in mind so when the rotation happens, cards don't exist to need the card and ban it in Expanded. You fix the problem so a year or two later, the game stabilizes. Replace DCE with one only Colorless Pokemon can use and or maker a DCE Prism Star. The problem with Expanded is it exist.

 

[Otaku]

Wrong. Allow it to rotate from Standard and change all card design with this decision in mind so when the rotation happens, cards don't exist to need the card and ban it in Expanded. You fix the problem so a year or two later, the game stabilizes. Replace DCE with one only Colorless Pokemon can use and or maker a DCE Prism Star. The problem with Expanded is it exist.

I wanted to highlight what crystal_pidgeot said as more than just a sign of agreement, but to explain something. We've debated and discussed things both on these boards, on other boards, and via PM. We still don't agree on everything and have some significant differences of opinion. Where we have come to agree is that change can happen. I know cyrstal_pidgeot has played for a while, and too often I point out how long the ol' otaku has been playing. XP That isn't about bragging rights, and it isn't because it means we automatically know what we're talking about but it does mean we've seen a lot. Right or wrong, we didn't just come to these conclusions over the past few months or weeks or years... and we saw things first hand that some people don't realize are possible.

Which includes the kind of adjustment that crystal_pidgeot is mentioning. If that sounds like another tangent... a lot of the rebuttals @RisingRaichuu are making aren't exactly persuasive to someone like me. Sometimes because I think his predicted outcomes don't match what I've seen or expect to happen.

Banning DCE would create a very unhealthy meta where energy acceleration decks such as Ray and Blastoise would dominate very quickly.

DCE is Energy acceleration. I'm not sure - and I mean that, because I don't have time to go searching through the latest results - if any Expanded Format deck works without Energy acceleration. Maybe Greninja BREAK, if that's still a thing? Speaking of Greninja BREAK, it is one of the many anti-Ability decks that sure would love it if the decks that hit hard-and-fast via DCE suddenly didn't have DCE. Maybe that just means RisingRaichuu identified the wrong BDIF deck which would upset the metagame... or maybe it is really hard to predict, and could even result in a better metagame than he's predicting. It might not even truly affect the present, simply creating a different metagame, but it would still be one less "trap" to worry about in card design.

Even if banning DCE in Expanded is a terrible idea... what of rotation? At this point, it just requites DCE doesn't show up in any new sets and that we get a fairly typical four-set-cut from the 2019-2020 rotation. The most recent printing outside of Japan is in Shining Legends... and Japanese reprints of existing cards don't always correlate to an additional printing over here.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

Even if banning DCE in Expanded is a terrible idea... what of rotation? At this point, it just requites DCE doesn't show up in any new sets and that we get a fairly typical four-set-cut from the 2019-2020 rotation. The most recent printing outside of Japan is in Shining Legends... and Japanese reprints of existing cards don't always correlate to an additional printing over here.

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we?