Discussion Why do I hear the term "Greninja is dead"?

[Pokeman]

I am dumbfounded how the term dead belongs anywhere goes with this card/deck. I see nearly anyone playing this amazing deck, which doesn't really have any weakness in the current format. I've been playing it since I got back into TCG, & find it to be a deck that will probably be amazing till the day it rotates. I've been such a master of this deck and have won several events playing it, and right now I find it to be among the top decks! I've heard this term before from some people & it draws me to the question are you nuts?!? I find it even at a better point of it play as of right now even. I'd like to hear opinions on people that believe this rubbish & get some other side points. By the way I'm only talking about standard format, I don't play expanded.

 

[Fayld]

Couple of points.

1. The current "hot" deck is Decidueye / Vileplume and that hits Greninja for weakness. It also shuts off items and snipes bench sitters. It also has a whopping 240 HP and typically you see at least 1 ready to go T1 and 3 ready to go by T3. And that isn't even talking about how bad Vileplume makes things on top of that. No dive balls. No Trainer's Mail. Etc. Overall, Decidueye flat wrecks Greninja.

2. Most of the best decks in the format don't require abilities to function rendering shadow stitching useless. Many of the best decks in the format also use Garbodor which hurts Greninja lots. The decks that don't, but have issues with Greninja usually tech Giratina promo to shut off Greninja's snipe ability.

I don't think the deck is dead per se, but if you were to take it to a regional / league cup right now, there is a high likelihood that you aren't coming anywhere near winning. It just runs into a brick wall with Decidueye / Vileplume.

 

[Pokeman]

I've only lost to Garbador once out of all the times I played it. It's not a threat, a very easy card to get around and kill. I find vileplume would hurt, but how easy is it for that to get going? Two stage 2 decks seems slow in this format.

 

[Asmer]

I am dumbfounded how the term dead belongs anywhere goes with this card/deck. I see nearly anyone playing this amazing deck, which doesn't really have any weakness in the current format. I've been playing it since I got back into TCG, & find it to be a deck that will probably be amazing till the day it rotates. I've been such a master of this deck and have won several events playing it, and right now I find it to be among the top decks! I've heard this term before from some people & it draws me to the question are you nuts?!? I find it even at a better point of it play as of right now even. I'd like to hear opinions on people that believe this rubbish & get some other side points. By the way I'm only talking about standard format, I don't play expanded.

You didn't hear...?
His funeral was last weekend... he ended up dying while trying to cross the freeway to get back to the pond. His wife and kids were at the funeral and I heard that his daughter discovered the body...

...wait, you said Greninja? Oh... whoops. I thought you meant Frogger.

No, in all honesty, people love throwing around terms like "dead" and "unviable" and all sorts of nonsense whenever something starts to fall out of favor, whether its via Meta shifts or bans or whatever. The deck is still a good deck, but it may have new threats, in all reality (Decidueye/Plume is a good example, of course). Granted, that doesn't mean anything in retrospect, considering we all thought Night March was long gone in Expanded and, what do you know, it showed up strong again recently.

That said, Vileplume is honestly fairly easy to get out, and, more importantly, so is Decidueye. The fact that the Owl can go up on Turn 1, immediately target Froakie with its ability, and then potentially score a Knock Out (or two if they set up a 2nd Decidueye) is a massive problem to decks like Frogs, who, unless they start Talonflame, don't run too many bulky options for Basics. So, in reality, the deck can be quite the handful to deal with. Still, if you slow down the tempo of the deck, you can easily kill off Oddish/Rowlet with Greninja BREAK, which I find funny.

That all said and aside, if you really think about it, that's kind of how Pokemon TCG works. We find something that works, we play with it, we find something else that works, we play with that and either shun the original thing that worked or other things, then someone else finds out that those things still work well and it starts all over again. Always do what you feel is best for you and always play what you feel you will be best on. That's realistically that only thing that truly matters.

After all, we're all playing a game, anyway.

(Glad you brought this up, by the way. I feel a lot of people fall in to the unfortunate trap of "this is good" and "this is bad", so keep at it with your own thing, yo~)

-Asmer

 

[21times]

Unfortunately, I agree with Asmer and FayID. I played a lot of Greninja until Feb 4th and won a lot as well with Greninja. I miss the big blue frog.

I will say this: I'm seeing a TON of Volcanion, and Greninja almost always runs roughshod over him. So it might be that you're just not coming across a lot of Grass decks? Maybe you've just recently had a number f favorable matchups?

With regard to events, I win more in events than I do on the versus ladder. My win percentage in events is around 72%, my win percentage on the ladder is around 60%. Part of that is because I only take good decks into events, but part of it is also because you can get paired against anyone in an event. On the versus ladder, there's a threshold for minimum number of matches played. Basically, I've been playing for about a year and have played probably 5000 matches in that time. I'm not going to get paired against someone who maybe has only played a couple of hundred matches. The algorithm won't do that. I don't know exactly where the line of demarcation is, but I know that they have it built into the programming that an experienced player won't play a new player on the versus ladder. As far as events go, that's a whole different story. I played in an event last night against someone who was probably new and didn't have a lot of great cards, so it was an easy win.

But if you don't believe me, send me an invite on PTCGO (IGN 21times). I'd be more than happy to drop feather arrows all over your Froakies and Frogadiers.

 

[Fayld]

I've only lost to Garbador once out of all the times I played it. It's not a threat, a very easy card to get around and kill. I find vileplume would hurt, but how easy is it for that to get going? Two stage 2 decks seems slow in this format.

Garbodor is a threat. Just because someone is playing a deck running Garb doesn't mean they run it well. Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that Garb is insta-loss for Greninja. That clearly isn't the case given how well the deck had done earlier in the season.

That said, T1 Vileplume is quite common for Deciduplume. To the point where if they whiff it, that is more surprising. The thing with Greninja is that it has two T1 / T2 decks that hit it for weakness (Deciduplume and Vespiquen). That's a big deal when you go into a tournament.

Again, I am not saying you can't win with the deck. The deck is a top 10-12 deck in this format for a reason. It is amazing. I would just be surprised if we see it place top 8 in another regional this season.

 

[Kietharr]

SM basically killed Greninja not because of Vileplume but because of the new partners Vileplume has that let you run a stage 1/2 or a stage 2/2 deck without it feeling slow at all via FOGP. Previously the only other card that really benefited from FOGP alongside Plume was Vespiquen, which was fairly manageable due to very low HP and how easily Greninja could trade with it.

Now Vileplume has two good partners that can hit OHKO range on Greninja super easily and also have enough HP to take hits from it. Greninja still does fine when it has a workable matchup, but both the Decidueye and Lurantis matchups are probably 75-80% favored for those decks if they move second and 95+% if they move first. Turn 1 item lock remains devastating for Greninja decks as well. Now that these new grass decks are taking off, Greninja is going to have a hard time maintaining the record you need to hit top cut at major offline events when these two decks are both very popular.

 

[Pokeman]

To be honest, I haven't played any Vileplume at the other days cup, it was fluttered with Lapras, though I only played it once and lost by 2 prices (I would have won on my last turn if I didn't prize my last super rod, other than that being like the most used deck there, I played against two speedrai decks and well I lost to both of them unfortunately, this was my first tournament coming back in which I did have a losing record. I did some small changes that I wanted to try without testing and that hurt, but what hurt me mostly, was my horrible luck with my prize cards, I never had that bad of luck at a tournament, but oh well. I have been working with the deck for sometime and I know it is still very hot. My answer to any deck as of anything that plays evolves (Umbreon GX, which I played this past weekend plus beaten), and also gives me the win nearly everytime against Lurantis, my favorite & new hottest tech, check it out people, I play 1 of these!

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Greninja BREAK is just as dead as any other deck with a x2 Weakness.

 

[Pokeman]

That doesn't make a deck dead, it gives the deck an uphill battle, new cards, different techs to adjust to the format only give it more strength to win against those match ups.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

That doesn't make a deck dead, it gives the deck an uphill battle, new cards, different techs to adjust to the format only give it more strength to win against those match ups.

To be fair, you take the auto loss. Dark auto loses to fighting, etc. etc. Weakness is a bad mechanic right now.

 

[Asmer]

Greninja BREAK is just as dead as any other deck with a x2 Weakness.

I'll admit... this made me cackle. Nice.

That doesn't make a deck dead, it gives the deck an uphill battle, new cards, different techs to adjust to the format only give it more strength to win against those match ups.

Almost 100% certain he was kidding, yo.

Unless his above statement disproves my above statement, in which case... you really should be joking, yo. D:

-Asmer

 

[Luis Rodriguez]

I use a single Talonflame break on my greninja deck as well as Hex Maniac and 2 weakness policies. If they lock the trainers me on the first turn what i usually do is get the hex and a weakness policy with Talonflame. If they dont get the lock then i try to get the Talonflame break with Wally (i use 2 or 3 copies) and get the weakness policies out. If they use lysandre on my frogs i just continue to deal 80 and searching for 2 cards in my deck. Vileplume decks arent effective at chaining multiple lysandre because once they setup the Vileplume, they cant use VS seeker.

I know these techs make the deck even more inconsistent but its the only chance i have against the recent swarm of grass decks.

 

[Fayld]

I'll admit... this made me cackle. Nice.


Almost 100% certain he was kidding, yo.

Unless his above statement disproves my above statement, in which case... you really should be joking, yo. D:

-Asmer

I honestly think the grass decks are going through the shiny new feeling out phase all great new strong decks go through. People are going to counter them and counter them hard and once they do, I think we will be right back to rock, paper, scissors. Once that happens, I think Greninja comes right back and does its thing. But right now, there are just so many of them being run that Greninja is a bad play in a tournament.

I know in our last little mini league challenge, 2 out of the 12 masters were running Deciduplume and I was about *this* close to running it as well. If a couple of the other regulars had played, I am also 99% certain they would have run one of the two grass decks as well. Not saying that is representative of every area, but bringing Greninja into that environment is pretty much begging to lose.

 

[Asmer]

I honestly think the grass decks are going through the shiny new feeling out phase all great new strong decks go through. People are going to counter them and counter them hard and once they do, I think we will be right back to rock, paper, scissors. Once that happens, I think Greninja comes right back and does its thing. But right now, there are just so many of them being run that Greninja is a bad play in a tournament.

I know in our last little mini league challenge, 2 out of the 12 masters were running Deciduplume and I was about *this* close to running it as well. If a couple of the other regulars had played, I am also 99% certain they would have run one of the two grass decks as well. Not saying that is representative of every area, but bringing Greninja into that environment is pretty much begging to lose.

Aye, agreed. Though, I do want to point out something for everyone because I feel its crucial for this topic.

It's not that the deck is dead, but it'll need some time off, of course. Then again, every location has a set Meta and that's where the line gets a bit blurry. For example, Grass is incredibly strong right now. This is a fact. That attracts Volcanion, which is a very good check/counter to Decidueye/Plume. If a bunch of players bring Volcanion to the table, guess what? We have a Fire Meta. Greninja is pretty nice against Volcanion from what I remember. All of a sudden, you get this trifecta of Greninja, Decidueye, and Volcanion. The thing is... none of these decks are actually "dead" in regards to the decks themselves no longer functioning, which is what I personally think this topic should be about.

Decks don't simply "die". They shift in and out of the Meta unless something about the deck itself no longer allows it to function at a high level. In that regard, one may deem that a deck is indeed "dead".

Now, as I type this, I have no idea why I'm quoting you since this isn't necessarily a direct response, but an overall "Oh goodness Old Man Asmer is rambling again" kind of thing... but oh well. I digress.

-Asmer

 

[PMJ]

Greninja is dead because it has an auto-loss to the bdif. You are item locked from the word go and there's not a damn thing Greninja can do about it. Weakness helps drive the nail in the coffin, but Vileplume is the murder weapon. Greninja has always struggled with item lock and now that Grass has two good partners in Decidueye-GX and Lurantis-GX--both of which are beefy behemoths, one of which can heal--Greninja can't keep up.

Wobbuffet and Garbodor also gives Greninja a ton of problems, and they're everywhere because, again, Vileplume is the bdif.

 

[Asmer]

Greninja is dead because it has an auto-loss to the bdif. You are item locked from the word go and there's not a damn thing Greninja can do about it. Weakness helps drive the nail in the coffin, but Vileplume is the murder weapon. Greninja has always struggled with item lock and now that Grass has two good partners in Decidueye-GX and Lurantis-GX--both of which are beefy behemoths, one of which can heal--Greninja can't keep up.

Wobbuffet and Garbodor also gives Greninja a ton of problems, and they're everywhere because, again, Vileplume is the bdif.

That's an awful mentality to have, @PMJ especially coming from someone like you. Granted, I agree that it's no longer a Meta-viable option, but you speak as if the deck no longer functions, which is a massive mistake. We all thought the same of Volcanion and it came back. We thought the same of Night March and it topped recently.

In other words, no, it isn't a viable deck in the Meta right now and I do agree, but please consider that it may become viable once more instead of simply stating that it needs a tombstone, essentially.

-Asmer

 

[Fayld]

Aye, agreed. Though, I do want to point out something for everyone because I feel its crucial for this topic.

It's not that the deck is dead, but it'll need some time off, of course. Then again, every location has a set Meta and that's where the line gets a bit blurry. For example, Grass is incredibly strong right now. This is a fact. That attracts Volcanion, which is a very good check/counter to Decidueye/Plume. If a bunch of players bring Volcanion to the table, guess what? We have a Fire Meta. Greninja is pretty nice against Volcanion from what I remember. All of a sudden, you get this trifecta of Greninja, Decidueye, and Volcanion. The thing is... none of these decks are actually "dead" in regards to the decks themselves no longer functioning, which is what I personally think this topic should be about.

Decks don't simply "die". They shift in and out of the Meta unless something about the deck itself no longer allows it to function at a high level. In that regard, one may deem that a deck is indeed "dead".

Now, as I type this, I have no idea why I'm quoting you since this isn't necessarily a direct response, but an overall "Oh goodness Old Man Asmer is rambling again" kind of thing... but oh well. I digress.

-Asmer

This is what I am trying to say, but put far more eloquently LOL! For now, it isn't meta viable. People will start countering it though. 1 Hex Maniac + Garbodor tool attachment = good luck stopping M Mewtwo from steam rolling Deciduplume. Not saying there aren't counters. Just saying that it seems like the best players (I am not in this category) find ways to beat decks no matter what kind of "lock" is on there because they have practiced against it over and over and over again.

Wobbuffet and Garbodor also gives Greninja a ton of problems, and they're everywhere because, again, Vileplume is the bdif.

Frankly, I think calling Deciduplume BDIF is premature. It is the latest in a long stream of BDIF for this season. Remember when Yveltal / Garbodor was unbeatable? It is a great deck. An absolutely great deck. But as with every other deck, it has decks and styles it struggles against...decks that are able to stream Hex Maniac, shut off abilities, etc. Yes there are counters built into some of those deck lists, but in general it doesn't stream Lysandre the same way other decks can due to not having VS Seeker. I don't know if it is just the decks I am running or what, but I truly have not struggled against this deck and it isn't like I am running Volcanion as a primary. Last night I was running Decidueye + Alakazam and won 4 of 5 against Deciduplume and that deck is nowhere near BDIF nor is it particularly built to counter Deciduplume. I think a simple meta shift to 1+ Hex along with the ability to spam it is going to become more normal just like it is quite normal in expanded. People will adapt (and have started to). But to call it BDIF is premature IMO and a bit strong given some of the hard counters for the deck that already exist.

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

It's not just the rise of Decidueye-GX/Vileplume decks, but also the response to it, i.e.:

1. More Wobbufet being played
2. Higher counts of Hex Maniac
3. Garbodor still relevant

All of the above hinder Greninja just as much, if not more, than Decidueye-GX/Vileplume. Sure, more Volcanion gives the Greninja player the chance of some easier matches but that doesn't make up for the above.

Now might be the time to try some radical new Greninja builds (e.g. Greninja/Wobbufet) or just park it until more favourable matchups come back.

 

[Kyoushiro44]

This is what I am trying to say, but put far more eloquently LOL! For now, it isn't meta viable. People will start countering it though. 1 Hex Maniac + Garbodor tool attachment = good luck stopping M Mewtwo from steam rolling Deciduplume. Not saying there aren't counters. Just saying that it seems like the best players (I am not in this category) find ways to beat decks no matter what kind of "lock" is on there because they have practiced against it over and over and over again.

On paper hex + float is a brilliant idea. On the actual game though? How many hex's did you think about running? You have no choice as to what you get in your opening hands nor your hands afterwards, how do you think you are going to get that combo.
No wait, how do you think you are going to get trubbish + garbodor + hex maniac + float stone combo under item lock, assuming you are going second?

My point is, we can make all these assumptions of how easy something is to counter, since you only need few cards to do it, but try to remember that in this case, you don't have any outs to search those needed cards when you truly would need them.