Why is everyone hating on flippy cards?

AmishEskimoNinja

AmishEskimoNinja

Hating durant since 11/16/11
Member
So this has been bugging me lately.

Someone posts a deck that has a coin flip card in it. And the first post says to remove it with the reason "flippy" As if the person didn't know they needed to flip for it. Some cards are worth it if you get the coin flip because they often let you do something extremely good. Like Level max. If I had a card that said "you win if you flip heads" the first post would tell me to take it out.

EDIT: I wasn't saying you would lose if you flipped tails with that theoretical card

"Flippy" isn't a reason. "This card is better because it doesn't require a flip" is a reason.
 
For one reason look at this.

I need to win the game with this last head's oh no I lost.

Now look at this.

I only need to do the damage to win ah I won.


Flippy's are to unrealiable. DUH
 
Most flip cards are hated due to there lack of potential people will gladly run 3-4 Super Scoop Up because a to the hand retreat is always better than your opponent gaining a prize, so benefit suits flip. with level max people would prefer the whole double switch prem idea even though its more cards. i use max because i don't mind flips sure it sucks when it doesn't pay of oh well life goes on, and more to it than winning
 
It counts on the gain and loss you have for the "flippy." Most of the time, a coin flip isn't worth it. However, if it comes more as an extra benefit or has an alright effect if you don't get all the heads(like, say you have Regigigas(LA lv 48), who does 60 normally for three energies. That and it's ability seem like a nice thing. When you actually attack, it's not really a wasted turn if you don't get a heads with the coin flip, but if you do, 80 damage and 20 bench damage is outstanding). However there are cards who's flip is unreasonable, like Glaceon (MD, LV 46), forcing you to coin flip to see if your opponent's active is put to slip.

Finally, your man attacker should never really rely on coin flips, unless the effect is not necessary for the damage needed. Then there are cards like Drapion. Definitely a mixed bag there. Some turns it's 80+10 from poison, sometimes, it's merely just 20. While it usually turns out to be half and half, if it doesn't attack hard enough like you need it to at the right moment, you're screwed. And I've had it happen to me. That's why I have Tyranitar as the heavy hitter, not Drapion. He's more of a "quick attack, hope for quick win" and "try to recover the battle with a low energy cost attack".

You really need to think if the heads on the coin flip is the only way the attack is positive in any light. If it isn't doing enough damage, has a good effect(for you), or anything at all for the energy cost when you flip tails, it isn't worth it. Sure, a risk can change around something, but when you're playing nothing but risks, you're playing with a double edged sword.
 
sry PW, but I'm kind of a hater of flippy cards...just for the very reason that Tristan stated...a flippy card losing the game for you is a very disheartening thing, and with that happening to me before, I have since become a hater of flippy cards

yea, they're great if they work, but they suck if they don't...and the latter is often on a grander scale than the former

as for the poster before the last poster...if your Super Scoop-Up doesn't work, your opponent will be more than likely gaining a prize anyway if you don't flip heads, so really you're just taking a 50/50 gamble...with the payoff, sometimes, not really being worth pulling the pokemon back to your hand before it gets KO'd...not only that, most times I see SSU's used to re-use cards like Uxie (LA), and this is mainly due to a player trying to use Set Up again to try and come across a much needed card...so in cases like that, the 50/50 payoff becomes even less of a payoff, because let's say you do get heads and you play Uxie again, only to find that what you drew from using Set Up again isn't what you were looking for

in fun decks, sure I don't mind flippy cards, it's part of what makes them fun...but for a competitive deck, that I'm trying to win a tournament with, flippy cards don't cut it...I agree, there is more to life than winning, but what is the point of going to something to win it, if you're just gonna take a half-"worth"ed approach about it
 
qnetykz said:
sry PW, but I'm kind of a hater of flippy cards...just for the very reason that Tristan stated...a flippy card losing the game for you is a very disheartening thing, and with that happening to me before, I have since become a hater of flippy cards

yea, they're great if they work, but they suck if they don't...and the latter is often on a grander scale than the former

as for the poster before the last poster...if your Super Scoop-Up doesn't work, your opponent will be more than likely gaining a prize anyway if you don't flip heads, so really you're just taking a 50/50 gamble...with the payoff, sometimes, not really being worth pulling the pokemon back to your hand before it gets KO'd...not only that, most times I see SSU's used to re-use cards like Uxie (LA), and this is mainly due to a player trying to use Set Up again to try and come across a much needed card...so in cases like that, the 50/50 payoff becomes even less of a payoff, because let's say you do get heads and you play Uxie again, only to find that what you drew from using Set Up again isn't what you were looking for

in fun decks, sure I don't mind flippy cards, it's part of what makes them fun...but for a competitive deck, that I'm trying to win a tournament with, flippy cards don't cut it...I agree, there is more to life than winning, but what is the point of going to something to win it, if you're just gonna take a half-"worth"ed approach about it
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Ok this is true.
But once i won because the oppenent lost due ,flippy, and he totally freaked out (you don't need to be angry when you lose an match lol) which is a bit too overkill. but myself: I hate flippy cards.
 
I honestly don't see why everyone hates them. I have come to accept that coin flips are just part of Pokemon. If it weren't for coin flips, Pokemon would be an entirely different game. IMO, coin flips make this game a bit more healthy. I mean, if SSU and Fainting Spell didn't have coin flips, we'd have a huge problem!
 
julian99janssen said:
Ok this is true.
But once I won because the oppenent lost due ,flippy, and he totally freaked out (you don't need to be angry when you lose an match lol) which is a bit too overkill. but myself: I hate flippy cards.
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Well, you shouldn't base your WHOLE deck on flippy cards. I'm talking about things like SSU and Level Max. They help you win, but they don't win or lose the game by themselves.
 
Actually, they could. When you can win if you get heads but you flip tails and you lose, you just wasted up to 4 cards which could be used for more consistency, more speed, more power, more techs and any other factor that could have won you the game.

I myself love SSU though. Level Max depends on the deck. In Blaziken, I'd probably wouldn't play it, yet in Torterra (Shaymin), I would because you also have Torterra LV.X
Also remember that SSU depends on the deck too.
 
amisheskimoninja said:
Well, you shouldn't base your WHOLE deck on flippy cards. I'm talking about things like SSU and Level Max. They help you win, but they don't win or lose the game by themselves.
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Well, SSU... Like others have said, doesn't always pay off. There are a few other alternatives to removing some pokemon. I honestly wish we could have the regular Scoop up come back, even if it came back in a supporter form.

As for Level Max, at best, they're used for Heatran and Giratina, so you can have them out in the back...but that's about it. You'll be using most other pokemon as the active, and if not, cards like Uxie X and Blaziken FB X have low low retreat costs.

I honestly don't see why everyone hates them. I have come to accept that coin flips are just part of Pokemon. If it weren't for coin flips, Pokemon would be an entirely different game. IMO, coin flips make this game a bit more healthy. I mean, if SSU and Fainting Spell didn't have coin flips, we'd have a huge problem!
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Let's put it this way...They don't hate that it's part of the game. They hate certain coin flip conditions that can make a card useless, or ruin their chances of winning. If you're doing constant damage that you can control, you don't have any problems. It's all your will. But if you remove that control, you may be dooming yourself. Basing a deck on luck just...isn't the best idea. You don't want it to work 50% of the time, you want it to win 100%.

Sometimes the coin flips are just pathetic. One Nidoking can do 100 damage for 4 energies. Would seem fair enough, if it wasn't for the fact you need to get TWO heads in two coin flips, or the attack does absolutely NOTHING. That's one heck of a huge waste, for four energies and a stage 2? Maybe if it was one energy and a basic, it would make more sense |D

One Dialga, on the other hand, can do 100 damage for 3 energies. But requires the same conditions. Only, if either of them are tails, it does 50 instead of nothing. Wow... They really love Dialga, don't they?
 
Bane said:
Well, SSU... Like others have said, doesn't always pay off. There are a few other alternatives to removing some pokemon. I honestly wish we could have the regular Scoop up come back, even if it came back in a supporter form.

As for Level Max, at best, they're used for Heatran and Giratina, so you can have them out in the back...but that's about it. You'll be using most other pokemon as the active, and if not, cards like Uxie X and Blaziken FB X have low low retreat costs.

I honestly don't see why everyone hates them. I have come to accept that coin flips are just part of Pokemon. If it weren't for coin flips, Pokemon would be an entirely different game. IMO, coin flips make this game a bit more healthy. I mean, if SSU and Fainting Spell didn't have coin flips, we'd have a huge problem!
Click to expand...

Let's put it this way...They don't hate that it's part of the game. They hate certain coin flip conditions that can make a card useless, or ruin their chances of winning. If you're doing constant damage that you can control, you don't have any problems. It's all your will. But if you remove that control, you may be dooming yourself. Basing a deck on luck just...isn't the best idea. You don't want it to work 50% of the time, you want it to win 100%.

Sometimes the coin flips are just pathetic. One Nidoking can do 100 damage for 4 energies. Would seem fair enough, if it wasn't for the fact you need to get TWO heads in two coin flips, or the attack does absolutely NOTHING. That's one heck of a huge waste, for four energies and a stage 2? Maybe if it was one energy and a basic, it would make more sense |D

One Dialga, on the other hand, can do 100 damage for 3 energies. But requires the same conditions. Only, if either of them are tails, it does 50 instead of nothing. Wow... They really love Dialga, don't they?
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^ that hits the nail right on the head right there...

it couldn't be better explained as to why flippy cards aren't too well liked for competitive play

IMHO...instead of using Level Max, for Heatran, I would probably try to find a way to make his retreat from the active spot easier after X'ing him...for Giratina, I would probably prefer to just make a deck with him being used as an attacker
 
Flips on cards simply take the effect and halves it's potency. In a deck that can effectively use Super Scoop Up, like Gyarados or Kingdra for example, the effect of being able to return a 130 HP pokemon and relay it (basically fully healing it) is SO good that it's worth the flip.
Level Max is an interesting example.
First of all, if you want to get your Lv X out quickly, you need to run 4. That takes up more space than just adding another Switch/Warp Point, since your deck will most likely have some anyway.
Secondly, people hate this more than a flip on a SSU for one reason - It helps you set up. It's bad whiffing a SSU but not as bad as if you whiff a crucial Lv Max flip to help you set up. That totally sucks. =[
However, coming back to my first paragraph, SOME decks like AMU can utilise Lv Max SO well that, like my other examples, is worth the flip. Additionally, AMU has no trouble setting up even if it whiffs all it's Lv Max flips (the deck got on fine with just Premier Ball before Lv Max was legal).

People being irrationally afraid of a "flippy" card is silly though. There is a lot of invisible luck in pokemon (will I draw this card to win me the game off my Cosmic Power!?) and SSU is just a more visible form of luck.
 
My Regionals deck used 4 Gengar, 2 Machamp, 1 Machamp LV. X and 4 Super Scoop Up. It's hard for a deck to get more flippy than that, yet I went 9-0. Why? It's all about balance. I'm not saying my deck was the best play, but I am saying that it worked. Super Scoop Up was used for nothing but Crobat G and my deck was based on swarming Gengars and activating Fainting Spell as much as possible. An average of 5-6 Fainting Spell flips per game comes out to 2-3 heads and I usually only need 1-2 heads on SSU anyway. Actually using Hurricane Punch might have happened once out of every 5 games. So my point is that it depends on if you rely on the flips or just use them to your advantage if you get heads. Don't get me wrong, if a flip card can be avoided then by all means do so. But flip cards are by no means bad (or at least not most of them).
 
The only good flippy cards are semi broken trainers like SSU. This is ONLY because you play it, and if you don't get the flip you simply continue on your way, or even play another one. You didn't lose or gain anything from it. If you do hit the flip, it's great, but it's not something that you NEED to make your deck work. (if it is, I suggest you re think your deck)
 
DarthPika said:
The only good flippy cards are semi broken trainers like SSU. This is ONLY because you play it, and if you don't get the flip you simply continue on your way, or even play another one. You didn't lose or gain anything from it. If you do hit the flip, it's great, but it's not something that you NEED to make your deck work. (if it is, I suggest you re think your deck)
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You forgot TSD
 
Celebi23 said:
My Regionals deck used 4 Gengar, 2 Machamp, 1 Machamp LV. X and 4 Super Scoop Up. It's hard for a deck to get more flippy than that, yet I went 9-0. Why? It's all about balance. I'm not saying my deck was the best play, but I am saying that it worked. Super Scoop Up was used for nothing but Crobat G and my deck was based on swarming Gengars and activating Fainting Spell as much as possible. An average of 5-6 Fainting Spell flips per game comes out to 2-3 heads and I usually only need 1-2 heads on SSU anyway. Actually using Hurricane Punch might have happened once out of every 5 games. So my point is that it depends on if you rely on the flips or just use them to your advantage if you get heads. Don't get me wrong, if a flip card can be avoided then by all means do so. But flip cards are by no means bad (or at least not most of them).
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That's an example of coin flips being reasonable, and good. Obviously, the flip is necessary to make Gengar's ability fair, and if fails, it's not like you're losing anything more than you would. A good question is...how do you use Fainting Spell 6 times a game and still win? ^-^; Since Gengar does need to get knocked out to use the ability.

Still doesn't excuse a few of them, however. Well, more like half of them. I'm sure the incident that happened to inspire this topic was over a card that wasn't like Machamp or Gengar.

Was still a good example of the positive side of coin flips though. It's amazing what you can do when you not only think of what you can rely on, but what small factors can change the game around, without possibility of ruining your chances.

You forgot TSD
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So uber rare, so uber-broken.
 
I could have grinded into Worlds if I would have got at least 1 heads of 3 flips on Gengar. Guess what? I got all tails.

I could have won 3 BR's if I would have gotten heads, but I never won any because of it. It's always tails for me and others, that's why flippy decks aren't good for skilled players.

It really is a big deal.
 
I love most "flippy" cards, because they increase the element of luck in my matches. And matches that depend on luck more than strategy are my favourites. Yay~

^~^
 
Trying to reduce the element of luck is something you should always try to accomplish in your deck. Flippy cards only increase the amount of luck.
Now as said before, coin flips for otherwise semi-broken things are a good thing. However, you should try to minimalize the amount of coin flips on things like attacks. When an attack can give you a bonus if you flip heads (Like Regigigas LA), then okay, it is no big deal. However, it is the reason why Porygon-Z GE is junk. When you can get 0 damage out of your attack simply by a bad flip, then it's really bad. Therefore, you should at least try and keep your attack-flips to a minimum.
 
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