Will Raquaza replace Terrakion in ZekEels?

[Celebi23]

If you want to move forward, you'll have to stop resorting to the stubborn "your argument is invalid" without actually countering my points too. Furthermore, I ask that you read my posts a little more carefully before posting; some of the things you're saying are actually directly countered in the very same post you're responding to!!!

The fact that you had to bring Mewtwo EX into this proves that you know you lost that arguement...Of course Mewtwo is an amazing choice for the match-up, but if you don't OHKO Terrakion (4-5 Energy needed), then the Prize trade is equal.

Mewtwo-EX does nothing of the sort. Also, I really appreciate your bringing the energy requirement into the argument. Because with Rayquaza or Terrakion in the deck, you need 3 Eelektrik out just to potentially OHKO Terrakion with Mewtwo. With DCE, you need 2 Eelektrik to do the same; 3 will guarantee the OHKO. This actually gives the deck a fighting chance against Terrakion decks, whereas you're probably going to lose with Rayquaza or Terrakion in the deck. The builds with Rayquaza and Terrakion HAVE to be hitting for Weakness or they're vastly inferior to the Mewtwo-based builds.

You said soley on Lightning Energy, you just made all of this^ invalid.

Let's take a quick look back at where I said this. I believe it was here:

Also, Zekrom-EX can run solely on Lightning Energy. How is it harder to set Zekrom-EX up?

Now, examining this post, one word stands out. I made it huge for clarity in the above quote. I said it CAN run on Lightning Energy if necessary. It does not have to run without DCE, however. And I never claimed that was the case. I was explaining how you get multiple outs to the same attack, which makes it more consistent than Terrakion where you need the non-native Energy.

Therefore, you now have to respond to all the points I made in the post you were responding to, or it looks like you've actually lost the argument.

And Terrakion seems to do just fine with it's Fighting energy and Energy Search, so why would Rayquaza be any different?

As I have explained before, Rayquaza is different for a couple reasons. First of all, Terrakion did fine with Fighting largely because of Smeargle; you could draw twice as much in a turn as you can now, so it was a lot easier to draw a Fighting. Junk Arm also made Energy Search a semi-playable card, so it offered even more outs to the Fighting. Now Energy Search is a totally dead card.

The other reason Rayquaza is different is because the cards it is "countering" OHKO it. Terrakion would survive a turn, so you didn't need a Fighting every single turn. Rayquaza needs a Fire Energy every time. Not good. Even if we look the fact that the Prize trade is still even between the cards so it's not exactly a counter, it's still going to be hard to stream Rayquazas.

You don't have to take out any DCE or anything, just add in 2 Fire and 2 Energy search?

The #1 rule of deckbuilding is that in order to add a card, you have to drop a card. So something has to come out, and if it's not DCE, I'd love to hear what it could be. What cards are less important than a soft counter to two decks in a standard Eelektrik list?

 

[Shun]

I don't Terrakion is staple. Zeels have too many good attackers to play. It doesn't need any special techs against Dakrai (as Kevin Nance showed). Especially now, as Darkrai is way slower.

 

[Shaymin Lv.X]

Terrakion was never a staple in Zekeels decks.
Many people played the DCE variant before US nats.

 

[RobertBenjamin]

let's put aside theorymoning and input real world results, an eel list with rayquaza ex, normal rayquaza and mewtwo ex with an energy line of 4 DCE, 8 lighning energy and 3 fire energy did win a masters worlds qualifier in japan. another list which had 2 rayquaza, 2 rayquaza ex, 2 zekrom, 2 raikou ex also won a worlds qualifier in japan in the juniors/seniors level. so in practice rayquaza can slot in an eels list that can win a worlds qualifier.

 

[Emopanda133]

Even with DCE, Rayquaza is still easier to build up, I need a basic energy, rather than a special one, and I can search for mine.

There are several people at my league that are testing B&W-On Zekeels with Terrakion and Energy search, and it works with no problems. I would use two Energy, Two Energy Search, and a one-of Rayquaza. That's five cards compared to Terrakions 7-9 (deck dependent) which means I have at least two cards to add, in other words, DCE. And any smart player would make sure they have Mewtwo EX in with DCE before adding in other techs.

The reason I said "You lost this argument" when you mentioned Mewtwo is because you veered way off the arguement. The Arguement was Rayquaza or Zekrom EX vs. Terrakion, and when you change one side of an arguement that much, that's like saying: "Which car can get me to work faster", then someone says: "Oh my bike can" you're now saying you don't need Zekrom EX or Rayquaza, which contradicts your previous statements.

When you said" can runs solely on Lightning", that means you're expecting to, and I was using that situation as the example. But like I said Earlier, which is harder to obtain and stream, a basic energy that's searchable vs a deck with Enhanced Hammer, or a DCE with no search vs a deck with Enhanced Hammer?

Rayquaza is more versatile than Terrakion, meaning you're not just countering, you're Donking and 2HKOing in many more situations. Yes, the things it attacks (Garchomp/Hydregion) return KO it, but you only need to worry about Garchomp. And Garchomp becomes a very favorable match anyways if you start with Ray because you have the Donking potential. You just need to KO it's Swablu's quick, even Altaria on T2 and now you're up 2-0 prizes, so if they don't take Ray down, then you are way ahead.

Against Tetrakion, Rayquaza is and even trade, Zekrom EX however, without Eviolite, loses the trade, and with, loses the trade unless you can drop two more energy onto him. And please don't say: "Oh we'll I'll just through (enter attacker here) out and Tank, leave everyone else put of it, I can through the same attacker up, remember my car analogy?

 

[iisnumber12]

I believe that both are great techs in Zekeels, but I like Terrakion more. Rayquaza is a great early game attacker, but it is terrible late in the game. Zekeels is also already a fast deck, so aving te turn one 40 isn't that amazing. Terrakion, however, is great at any time and hits 3 big EXs for Weakness, OHKOing them. I personally like both in the deck, but space is why I think Rayquaza won't be in a ton of Zekeels.

 

[RobertBenjamin]

actually its rarity and its expected expensive price will be the main reasons why Rayquaza won't be in a ton of Zekeels. this card has a starting pre-order $39.99 price tag in T and T already and that's only pre-order. it will skyrocket in the coming days.

 

[Emopanda133]

I believe that both are great techs in Zekeels, but I like Terrakion more. Rayquaza is a great early game attacker, but it is terrible late in the game. Zekeels is also already a fast deck, so aving te turn one 40 isn't that amazing. Terrakion, however, is great at any time and hits 3 big EXs for Weakness, OHKOing them. I personally like both in the deck, but space is why I think Rayquaza won't be in a ton of Zekeels.

Yea, but when Rayquaza Donks you're tynamos, gabites and Swablu's, it doesn't really matter late game. Plus He can take Hydregion's out easily and quickly.

 

[iisnumber12]

actually its rarity and its expected expensive price will be the main reasons why Rayquaza won't be in a ton of Zekeels. this card has a starting pre-order $39.99 price tag in T and T already and that's only pre-order. it will skyrocket in the coming days.

I don't think a high price will stop people from playing the list they would prefer. I think there will be a regular one in the set too.

Yea, but when Rayquaza Donks you're tynamos, gabites and Swablu's, it doesn't really matter late game. Plus He can take Hydregion's out easily and quickly.

Sometime, a situational donk isn't worth it. That's why I don't run DCE in my Zekeels.

 

[dmaster]

I don't think a high price will stop people from playing the list they would prefer. I think there will be a regular one in the set too.

There's only the Shiny one in the set. :F There could be a promo but I doubt there will be, personally.

There will definitely be Rayquaza version of Eels now that both versions will be in the set. I think a version that has the EX and Shiny has the potential to be very strong in the early tournaments where people gravitate toward Dragon types in general. I wouldn't compare this version to the very reactive Terrakion/Eels decks we've had for the last couple months though. It's definitely a varient to watch out for though.

dmaster out.

 

[Cinema]

There's only the Shiny one in the set. :F There could be a promo but I doubt there will be, personally.

There will definitely be Rayquaza version of Eels now that both versions will be in the set. I think a version that has the EX and Shiny has the potential to be very strong in the early tournaments where people gravitate toward Dragon types in general. I wouldn't compare this version to the very reactive Terrakion/Eels decks we've had for the last couple months though. It's definitely a varient to watch out for though.

dmaster out.

I think there's a decent chance there will be a promo/tin of the regular Rayquaza, since there's 3 different artworks in Japan.

 

[Emopanda133]

There will, most definitly. Within the year there at least be a promo.

 

[Dork Void]

And you know this because every card that has been printed in a tin, promo, theme deck, etc. in Japan has been printed in the same thing in English? News to me. In addition, its highly unlikely that Rayquaza will be a tin promo because all of the tin promos since Next Destinies have been EX cards, and I highly doubt that they will run out of EX cards this year. In addition, every set has the potential to vastly change the metagame; sometime this year doesn't necessarily mean the card will be playable when it comes out again, if it does.

 

[Emopanda133]

I think we'll get a normal version in FreezeBolt/ColdFlare, or as the only non-EX tin of that set but that's just me.

 

[dmaster]

I think we'll get a normal version in FreezeBolt/ColdFlare, or as the only non-EX tin of that set but that's just me.

This is pretty much all but confirmed. All the Dragon mini set will probably be printed in our next set in November where we'll most likely see the normal version of the Rayquaza. For this reason, I just find it less likely that we'll see the promo until then or later.

dmaster out.

 

[9Tailz]

Terrakion can be more consistent than Rayquaza thanks to Blend WFLM. Just take out some Lightnings and fill them in with Blend.

 

[Emperor]

Terrakion can be more consistent than Rayquaza thanks to Blend WFLM. Just take out some Lightnings and fill them in with Blend.

Blend Energy is neither searchable or recoverable by coventional means. Rayquaza only requires 1 {L} (Which is both easily searchable and recoverable) energy to fuffil its purpose which is primarily to get the T1 KO against Tynamo/Swablu/Deino.

In my opinion neither are as good as eachother as their uses are highly dependant on your metagame, however saying that, they can both to used to combat the same decks (Somewhat contradicting) However it's all about how you want to go about winning the game.

Rayquaza and Terrakion can both be used to "counter" Zeel, however both go about doing so in different ways: Rayquaza just wants to get the prize advantage and cripple Zeels set-up by Ko'ing Tynamo then just go aggro *insert attacker here*. Even if you opponent does set up, you should be at a point in the game where they have no chance of closing the gap in prizes. Terrakion however just aims to get the surprise Retaliate on an EX, but seeing as the deck is primarily {L} it pretty muchs guarantees you a KO against nearly anything in the deck.

Against Darkrai EX/Hydreigon, again, Rayquaza aims to get the prize advantge by KO'ing Deino and stopping your opponent from utilising Hydreigon to abuse Max Potion. Terrakion simply Retaliates Darkrai EX hopefully getting you the KO netting you 2 prizes and of couse the deck can only run so many Dark Patch to keep {D} energy on the board so one-shotting a Darkrai EX can be devastating depending on the game-state.

Now the real question is which would you put in your deck? (if you wanted to) They both have pretty decent HP and having access to Eviolite gives them some additional bulk, however both have horrible retreat costs so you may be at the mercy of being catcher stalled or just be in a posistion where you'd rather want something else active but lack the Switch in hand to get it back. Rayquaza self mills, which may not seem that bad in the Zeel deck as having the chance of sending {L} energy to the discard pile is always nice, but without any way to manipulate the top cards of the deck you may just as well end up sending useful resources to the discard pile, and without Junk Arm this could be quite crippling. Terrakion doesn't self mill so you won't run the risk of losing precious resources using it, BUT starting with a Terrakion is just awful and that surprise Retaliate is no longer possible, unless you burn resources to Super Rod it back into the deck. However starting with Rayquaza isn't so bad as it can easily get the T1 Dragon Pulse as long as you don't whiff on the energy. Their second attacks aren't really the main focus but depending on the build of the deck you may have the chance to utilise their attacks. Rayquaza's Shred attack is easier to utilise as you could double Dynamotor to it and attach a {R} energy and attack, though it's only worth using when KO'ing Hydreigon, outside of that match-up, you're better off dedicating that energy to something else. However getting around Eviolite and other effects on the defending pokemon could prove useful. It's quite hard to get the one-turn Land Crush with Terrakion as it requires 2 {F} energy so it becomes ALOT more situational to use it, though it can OHKO an un-eviolited Darkrai EX/Zekrom EX/Raikou EX, so obviously it can hit more targets than Rayquaza but again it's mucher hard to use.

Tl;dr - It's all preference and how threatened you are of Zeel and Darkrai EX variants.

 

[9Tailz]

Point taken. As Emperor said, it all depends on your meta. You don't have to run Fire for Rayquaza to serve its purpose. Terrakion can be use with 2 Fighting Energy and an Energy Search. Neither is nessesarily better than the other, because one can be better in one situation, while the other is totally inferior. If you wanted to, you could run both, but your Eels would be pretty inconsistent after that.

 

[Glace]

There should be a neither option. I will use 1 Rayquaza and no Terrakion in BW-on Zekeels.

 

[RobertBenjamin]

again lets see real tournament results for the BW-on format, all three eel decks that won the japan world qualifiers didnt have a terrakion (2 in masters, 1 in juiors/seniors). two of those eel decks had a rayquaza. the terrakion decks that won in juniors/seniors in japan world qualifiers were paired with mewtwo ex and not eels.