Will sp pokemon take over?

[dmaster]

Yeah, Weavile owns for Weakness/Sp. Dark, etc. Toxitank is a terrible matchup on the other hand. I'm expecting about 25%/30% of decks at Regionals to be SP, maybe even more. There might be slightly more Rampardos, but I'm not really worried about that, seeing as so few play it. SPs are slowly taking over, kind of like Xous! ;o

dmaster out.

 

[Blue Thunder]

I'm taking out a Fun Fact for what you said in the last sentence.

Anyway, SP is starting to prove itself. The sheer number of players that are using it and the number of top-cuts with it are just amazing. If this is how good SP is now, I can't imagine Fall BRs. =O Even I'm going to run an SP deck when BET comes (Raichu GL + Gallade 4 ftw!), even though I used to not like them.

I think we have all come to this conclusion: They're not going to take over now, but they will become a huge part of the metagame once we get to the 2009-2010 season. If your deck doesn't fare well with SPs by that time, you might as well throw it aside.

 

[PokeKid Brandon]

Yeah it looks Like pokemon is trying to shift it over some. I will probably run a SP deck after regionals are over baecuse Dusk will be out beacuse of flygon. The only problem is now I have to decide waht Sp deck to play.

 

[Dark Espeon]

Yeah it looks Like pokemon is trying to shift it over some. I will probably run a SP deck after regionals are over baecuse Dusk will be out beacuse of flygon. The only problem is now I have to decide waht Sp deck to play.

Personal recommendation would be either Gallade E4 or Luxray GL with the classic beatdown and spread assistance to enable the deck to shift tactics on the fly. In case we are talking about DPt3 Blaziken FB and Absol G as well as Garchomp C would also be nice contenders. I am also partial to Mismagius GL but the card needs more assistance than the others to be viable.

 

[Zyflair]

Alright. I've decided. Since it's evident that SP Pokemon are going to be popular, I'm going to run speed Flygon/Mewtwo when BET is released. Rampardos is the best non-SP choice in DP-PT I see, but when BET comes out, you can bet Flygon is going to get popular, especially with Flygon's advantage against Stadium users and Trapinch's self energy accel.

 

[The Fallen One]

Yeah it looks Like pokemon is trying to shift it over some. I will probably run a SP deck after regionals are over baecuse Dusk will be out beacuse of flygon. The only problem is now I have to decide waht Sp deck to play.

BET won't be released by Regionals. Platinum was released in February. Regionals is in April. The minimum number of months between sets is 3. It'll be 2 by Regionals, so there won't be Flygon. -_-

 

[Blue Thunder]

Flygon/Mewtwo seems the most anti-SP deck that will be out in the future. Looks like SPs will need to find a new way to get around Mewtwo...Dialga G is murdered by Flygon. =/

 

[Zyflair]

Well, the idea isn't completely foolproof either. We still have that Warp Point sneaking in a couple of KOs, and perhaps SP Pokemon might even tech a Regice to deal with such a threat. Who knows? The future can go anywhere.

 

[PokeKid Brandon]

Yeah it looks Like pokemon is trying to shift it over some. I will probably run a SP deck after regionals are over baecuse Dusk will be out beacuse of flygon. The only problem is now I have to decide waht Sp deck to play.

BET won't be released by Regionals. Platinum was released in February. Regionals is in April. The minimum number of months between sets is 3. It'll be 2 by Regionals, so there won't be Flygon. -_-

Notice that I said after regionals?

But ya Flygon/mewtwo is going to be one of the bigger combos after BET comes out.

 

[Dark Espeon]

I am playing in a Japanese environment here and might have my first DP-DPt3 tournament this weekend in case my time schedule allows me to participate. Mewtwo was not an issue and Flygon turned out to be a little too slow to deal with the various kinds of Pokémon [SP] decks available. Hippowdon on the other hand is an entire different issue. The card is better than people give it credit for. Combine it with a decent starter that enables the deck to survive the first rush and even punish some Pokémon [SP] mechanics and you are able to give different Pokémon [SP] deck food for thought. It is also a decent deck able to hold it's own. I would rather bet my cash on Hippowdon builts then Flygon or Mewtwo.

 

[Zyflair]

I am playing in a Japanese environment here and might have my first DP-DPt3 tournament this weekend in case my time schedule allows me to participate. Mewtwo was not an issue and Flygon turned out to be a little too slow to deal with the various kinds of Pokémon [SP] decks available. Hippowdon on the other hand is an entire different issue. The card is better than people give it credit for. Combine it with a decent starter that enables the deck to survive the first rush and even punish some Pokémon [SP] mechanics and you are able to give different Pokémon [SP] deck food for thought. It is also a decent deck able to hold it's own. I would rather bet my cash on Hippowdon builts then Flygon or Mewtwo.

I already saw Hippowdon, but I don't see its potential. Stock Sand makes it similar to Blissey, but only weaker. Sand Reset potentially helps your opponent instead of you if your opponent is not the "traditional" supporter person, but the PokeDrawer + and PokeDex Handy guy that burns the deck for more cards. Also, a T1 Hippowdon (assuming if you even play BTS for a Stage One) deals only 30 damage, while a T1 Flygon deals 40 with the Trapinch self-accel. Flygon is far from slow if you concentrate on the speed issue.

EDIT: Also, the Japanese metagame is completely different from other metagames anyway. Why would I care about the Japanese metagame? I don't live there.

 

[Dark Espeon]

Hi Zyflair,

Have a more close look at the spoiler:

Hippowdon LV.48 - Fighting - HP110
Stage 1 - Hippopotas
Poke-Body: Sand Cover
As long as this Pokemon is your Active Pokemon, in between turns, place 1 damage counter on each of your opponent’s Pokemon LV.X.
[C] Stock Sand: Does 20 damage plus 10 damage times the number of Energy attached to Hippowdon. Before doing damage, you may attach 1 Basic Fighting Energy card from your discard pile to Hippowdon.
[F][F][C][C] Grand Quake: 80 damage. Does 10 damage to each Benched Pokemon.
Weakness: Water (+20)
Resistance: Lightning (-20)
Retreat: 4

Hippowdon is as likely to dish out a turn two 40 damage as Flygon and has a nice second attack which hurts Pokémon [SP] decks. Furthermore he is self sufficient and needs little to no assistance while Flygon needs a bench of evolved Pokémon to hit hard. Not taking about the Lv.X version. Hippowdon's version is mediocre while Flygon has a nice Poké-Body but the attack relies on the opponent to have a Lv.X card on the battlefield. Most new Pokémon [SP] Lv.X cards are at their best when combined with immediate Galactic's Invention 105 to abuse their disruption capabilities. Hardly any Pokémon [SP] cards are weak to colorless while a lot of them have a fighting weakness.

 

[Zyflair]

Let's break your argument down:

Hippowdon is as likely to dish out a turn two 40 damage as Flygon and has a nice second attack which hurts Pokémon [SP] decks. Furthermore he is self sufficient and needs little to no assistance while Flygon needs a bench of evolved Pokémon to hit hard.

If you had read my earlier post, I was concentrating on a T1 Flygon and Hippowdon. WHY? Most SP Pokemon can deal a good T1 with Energy Gain. Flygon’s T1 40 damage is OBVIOUSLY higher than Hippodown’s 30. With Flygon, I’m not concerned at all about a mediocre 60. Add some Pluspower and Crobat G, and you can 2HKO anything. And please don’t forget that Mewtwo will come in mid game and sweep once Dialga G is taken care of.

Hippowdon's version is mediocre while Flygon has a nice Poké-Body but the attack relies on the opponent to have a Lv.X card on the battlefield. Most new Pokémon [SP] Lv.X cards are at their best when combined with immediate Galactic's Invention 105 to abuse their disruption capabilities. Hardly any Pokémon [SP] cards are weak to colorless while a lot of them have a fighting weakness.

Hippowdon’s power is useless against SP Decks, but discarding an Invention between turns is just pure evil. Great, I have to rely on a LV.X to appear. In fact, I have no clue if even a single SP deck ever plays LV.X Pokemon and depends on them. What in the world is PokeTurn is going to do to me? Activate the effect and then scoop it back up. Fine. But can you do that to your Dialga G LV.X also to avoid Flygon? No! If I ever get my Flygon setup, I can attack with Mewtwo. There’s no way around such a problem, unless you can level up your Dialga G LV.X and then OHKO right on that same turn. Hippowdon has no surefire way to counter them. You say “alot” have the weakness, but when you think about it, many of them aren’t.

 

[PokeChamp]

The only LVX I play is Dialga, and if you kill him, I don't really care. I'll put your Flygon into a world of pain!

 

[Zyflair]

What about the Mewtwo sitting on my bench that I'm going to send up? What can you do then?

 

[PokeChamp]

Right. Like you are going to play Mewtwo LVX in a Flygon deck? Give me a break...

 

[Zyflair]

You completely missed the point. The whole point of a Flygon LV.X/Metwo LV.X is that Flygon LV.X destroys all LV.X which includes your Dialga G LV.X, letting Mewtwo LV.X sweep. It is the best SP counter I can think of, and it is decent against the rest of the meta.

 

[Dark Espeon]

If you had read my earlier post, I was concentrating on a T1 Flygon and Hippowdon. WHY? Most SP Pokemon can deal a good T1 with Energy Gain. Flygon’s T1 40 damage is OBVIOUSLY higher than Hippodown’s 30. With Flygon, I’m not concerned at all about a mediocre 60. Add some Pluspower and Crobat G, and you can 2HKO anything. And please don’t forget that Mewtwo will come in mid game and sweep once Dialga G is taken care of.

You assume that Flygon has an energy in the discard to dish out 40 damage turn one. Hippowdon does the same in case you assume he has an energy in the discard pile like in your Flygon example.

Hippowdon’s power is useless against SP Decks, but discarding an Invention between turns is just pure evil. Great, I have to rely on a LV.X to appear. In fact, I have no clue if even a single SP deck ever plays LV.X Pokemon and depends on them. What in the world is PokeTurn is going to do to me? Activate the effect and then scoop it back up. Fine. But can you do that to your Dialga G LV.X also to avoid Flygon? No! If I ever get my Flygon setup, I can attack with Mewtwo. There’s no way around such a problem, unless you can level up your Dialga G LV.X and then OHKO right on that same turn.

The Poké-Body on Flygon is indeed more than awesome but Hippowdon has a nice one too on the standard version of the card which hurts Pokémon Lv.X in general. Just to counter your example: Play Dialga G Lv.X and have a Psychic type Pokémon [SP] take care of Mewtwo Lv.X. The Pokémon [SP] deck should get the resources out faster than your chances are to get both Flygon and Mewtwo leveled up and fueled same time.

Hippowdon has no surefire way to counter them. You say “alot” have the weakness, but when you think about it, many of them aren’t.

The second attack of the standard version can be fueled turn two and dishes out 80 to the active and spreads to the entire bench of Pokémon [SP] decks. The Poké-Body of Flygon Lv.X is indeed awesome and there is no need to deny that at all. Same with the fact that Hippowdon Lv.X is mediocre at best but the standard version is great versus Pokémon [SP] decks and at least decent against other decks. Mewtwo Lv.X on the other hand is 120 damage each second turn or a mere 60 damage each turn. Double weakness to psychic is not that great either.

Why do you assume that a stage 2 leveled up card and a basic leveled up card are faster than a standard stage 1 attacker that is self sufficient and able to hold his own? Just because there is a Lv.X card does not mean that you have to use it . Hippowdon is much better than the Lv.X version. It is just my point of view and what we experienced over here. We tried Flygon with Eeveelutions and Claydol but it is not a true force in the metagame because it turned out to be slow compared to Hippowdon, Rampados, Gengar and various Pokémon [SP] decks. Juvenile Eevelutions were even better but still did not make the tier cut. Dislike that myself since I am an Eevee fan.

Regarding counters: Pokémon [SP] decks are focused on spread, control and beatdown in a variable combination. Either use a similar tactic and match the speed or reduce the tactical options of the local Pokémon [SP] decks. their strenght resides in their tactical choices that can be modified on the fly and their speed. This is where you want to hit them hard .

 

[Zyflair]

You assume that Flygon has an energy in the discard to dish out 40 damage turn one. Hippowdon does the same in case you assume he has an energy in the discard pile like in your Flygon example.

And the chances of that are close to none, considering if you run a Lunatone or some other discarding tech. Roseanne's or Uxie easily picks one up.

The Poké-Body on Flygon is indeed more than awesome but Hippowdon has a nice one too on the standard version of the card which hurts Pokémon Lv.X in general. Just to counter your example: Play Dialga G Lv.X and have a Psychic type Pokémon [SP] take care of Mewtwo Lv.X. The Pokémon [SP] deck should get the resources out faster than your chances are to get both Flygon and Mewtwo leveled up and fueled same time.

OHKO of a Pokemon LV.X hurts no matter how you argue your way out of it. And what kind of argument is that? Flygon is "more that awesome but Hippowdon has a nice one too?" And actually, no, Pokemon SP have no setup advantage compared to a Stage Two besides the fact SP Pokemon can just get more of them out T1 than a Stage Two, which only needs one out T1.

The second attack of the standard version can be fueled turn two and dishes out 80 to the active and spreads to the entire bench of Pokémon [SP] decks. The Poké-Body of Flygon Lv.X is indeed awesome and there is no need to deny that at all. Same with the fact that Hippowdon Lv.X is mediocre at best but the standard version is great versus Pokémon [SP] decks and at least decent against other decks. Mewtwo Lv.X on the other hand is 120 damage each second turn or a mere 60 damage each turn. Double weakness to psychic is not that great either.

Why in the world would I care about weakness if my opponent can't even scratch me?! If Hippowdon is as amazing as you say with its 80 damage, then why doesn't most of Japan play it over SP Pokemon? It's because it normally deals that 80 damage on T3 (unless you're playing Registark) while Flygon can do a moderate 60 on T2. Also let's not forget you deal bench damage to yourself. I'm sure Gallade 4 would thank you.

Why do you assume that a stage 2 leveled up card and a basic leveled up card are faster than a standard stage 1 attacker that is self sufficient and able to hold his own? Just because there is a Lv.X card does not mean that you have to use it . Hippowdon is much better than the Lv.X version. It is just my point of view and what we experienced over here. We tried Flygon with Eeveelutions and Claydol but it is not a true force in the metagame because it turned out to be slow compared to Hippowdon, Rampados, Gengar and various Pokémon [SP] decks. Juvenile Eevelutions were even better but still did not make the tier cut. Dislike that myself since I am an Eevee fan.

Eeveelutions nowadays have poor damage output and they don't play Rare Candy. That's the only reason why they are favored. Not only are they T2, they are a weak T2 deck. Mewtwo LV.X isn't needed until I make sure that Dialga G LV.X is taken out. If you aren't going to take it out, then I'll gladly take you down with Mewtwo. Stage Ones are nice, but it's the Stage Twos that normally get the better stats.

 

[Dark Espeon]

You assume that Flygon has an energy in the discard to dish out 40 damage turn one. Hippowdon does the same in case you assume he has an energy in the discard pile like in your Flygon example.

And the chances of that are close to none, considering if you run a Lunatone or some other discarding tech. Roseanne's or Uxie easily picks one up.

So what are Flygon's chances to dish out the turn one 40 damage you mentioned in your original post?

The Poké-Body on Flygon is indeed more than awesome but Hippowdon has a nice one too on the standard version of the card which hurts Pokémon Lv.X in general. Just to counter your example: Play Dialga G Lv.X and have a Psychic type Pokémon [SP] take care of Mewtwo Lv.X. The Pokémon [SP] deck should get the resources out faster than your chances are to get both Flygon and Mewtwo leveled up and fueled same time.

OHKO of a Pokemon LV.X hurts no matter how you argue your way out of it. And what kind of argument is that? Flygon is "more that awesome but Hippowdon has a nice one too?" And actually, no, Pokemon SP have no setup advantage compared to a Stage Two besides the fact SP Pokemon can just get more of them out T1 than a Stage Two, which only needs one out T1.

Getting more of them out and fueled within the same time is a set up advantage in my book. If Flygon Lv.X dominates Pokémon [SP] combined with Mewtwo Lv.X why is it not doing better in Japan or in European countries using the Japanese cards? According to your own logic it should do much better.

The second attack of the standard version can be fueled turn two and dishes out 80 to the active and spreads to the entire bench of Pokémon [SP] decks. The Poké-Body of Flygon Lv.X is indeed awesome and there is no need to deny that at all. Same with the fact that Hippowdon Lv.X is mediocre at best but the standard version is great versus Pokémon [SP] decks and at least decent against other decks. Mewtwo Lv.X on the other hand is 120 damage each second turn or a mere 60 damage each turn. Double weakness to psychic is not that great either.

Why in the world would I care about weakness if my opponent can't even scratch me?! If Hippowdon is as amazing as you say with its 80 damage, then why doesn't most of Japan play it over SP Pokemon? It's because it normally deals that 80 damage on T3 (unless you're playing Registark) while Flygon can do a moderate 60 on T2. Also let's not forget you deal bench damage to yourself. I'm sure Gallade 4 would thank you.

My argument was that Pokémon [SP] decks using Dialga G Lv.X can still scratch your Mewtwo Lv.X since they do not have much troubles to recover it from the discard.

I never claimed that Hippowdon is better than Pokémon [SP] deck. I merely claimed that it is better than Flygon/Mewtwo. That is all I said from the start.

Why do you assume that a stage 2 leveled up card and a basic leveled up card are faster than a standard stage 1 attacker that is self sufficient and able to hold his own? Just because there is a Lv.X card does not mean that you have to use it . Hippowdon is much better than the Lv.X version. It is just my point of view and what we experienced over here. We tried Flygon with Eeveelutions and Claydol but it is not a true force in the metagame because it turned out to be slow compared to Hippowdon, Rampados, Gengar and various Pokémon [SP] decks. Juvenile Eevelutions were even better but still did not make the tier cut. Dislike that myself since I am an Eevee fan.

Eeveelutions nowadays have poor damage output and they don't play Rare Candy. That's the only reason why they are favored. Not only are they T2, they are a weak T2 deck. Mewtwo LV.X isn't needed until I make sure that Dialga G LV.X is taken out. If you aren't going to take it out, then I'll gladly take you down with Mewtwo. Stage Ones are nice, but it's the Stage Twos that normally get the better stats.

If this logic would be correct please explain why stage one decks did that well and why Pokémon [SP] decks are on their raise trampling a lot of stage two decks on their way. According to your logic at least Flygon should be the top deck in metagames that have this card at their disposal. According to the best of my knowledge this is not the case.