#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?

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jboy said:
If people say we evolved from monkeys, How come thats not happening right now?
Do you know ANYTHING about evolution?
1st of all, the process took millions of years. The evolution can be seen in fossil records, and the process of evolution can easily be seen in nature, especially on a microbiological level.
2nd of all, there is no straight line in which organisms evolve, it happens through random mutations. This means that the ancestors of the human race would probably never evolve into humans as we know them again.
3th of all, They which were ape-like creatures, but not apes like we know them, although the apes of today also evolved from the same ancestors, we're very closely related
 
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
jboy said:
If people say we evolved from monkeys, How come thats not happening right now?
Do you know ANYTHING about evolution?
1st of all, the process took millions of years. The evolution can be seen in fossil records, and the process of evolution can easily be seen in nature, especially on a microbiological level.
2nd of all, there is no straight line in which organisms evolve, it happens through random mutations. This means that the ancestors of the human race would probably never evolve into humans as we know them again.
3th of all, They which were ape-like creatures, but not apes like we know them, although the apes of today also evolved from the same ancestors, we're very closely related
I don't believe that we evolved from tiny cells or whatever. I'm a Christian so that evolving stuff can just blow away for all I care.;)
 
No....

Evolution is a NATURAL occurance. I do believe in God, but evolving is something that happens in nature, just like reproducing, adaptation, and our functions as living be-ings. No one can convinve me we humans just "popped up" one day. A process has to occur. We can prove evolution exists because we have evidence of ancient fossil animals evovling into what is today their modern forms. If you don't believe me, I dare you to google it...
 
jboy, if you're so very sure you're right, how come you're so very afraid of a debate? Why are you closing your mind like that?
 
Obviously not, however it isn't a basis for natural selection evidence either.

dmaster out.
 
IMHO, the true meaning of God has been lost for decades. I think God is a God of love and peace. That makes it hard for me to believe there is a God as people still use His name to justify murdering other people or involve His name in warfare.
 
I say no. Basic knowledge shows this:


Q: How could humans originate from apes, if apes still exist?
Q: If the big bang created the world, who created the matter involved in the big game
Q: How could a whole gallaxy's history revolved around religion be completly wrong?
Q: Even with billions of years, how does a one celled organism "evolve" into a complex human
Question from opposing side: You say god always exist, how do you know that the matter in the big bang was always there?
A: Mankind has always thought of there being divine beings controlling the world, and normal matter seems to have none of the qualifications.

Those are just some examples.

But just like pandamore said, evolution happens everyday. It is a natural occurence. If you compare an average man from 2009, to a man from 1809, there will be differences. Changes are natural, but some scintific theories take things too far.
 
@Juliacoolo, there wouldnt be a change between the two men as according to evolution it should have taken roughly millions of years for there to be s minuet change.

@ All others, I wouldn't base my arguements for God around intelligient design as nobody accepts it even though it is a good way of portraying God but oh well... I would only show the flaws in science to prove such a thing, such as... Where did the materials come from to creat the big bang? How did the universe become so perfect for beings to live in? That is from the placement of Earth to the placement of Jupitar. How can a cell develop in a sterile environment without oxygen?

There are many more...
 
There would be noticable changes. The current average would be taller, and healthier, because of new health, growth, and welfare technology. Sure they would be the same, but even little changes are changes.
 
Of course we've evolved from like a hundred years ago. We're living longer, and not all of that is due to better medicine. It's because we're biulding better immune systems to the diseases because of medicine being taken over time.
 
Pandamore said:
Of course we've evolved from like a hundred years ago. We're living longer, and not all of that is due to better medicine. It's because we're biulding better immune systems to the diseases because of medicine being taken over time.

not only this people are getting taller and men start to actually look better as the generations continue because women like good looking guys and by the laws of natural selection men lose traits that women find unattractive bvecause they need a better chance to survive and reproduce.
evolution is real nothing is perfect so i mean God could have created an unperfect human and then nature took charge to attempt to create a perfect world.
 
Fun time. :)

I would first like to make a little point that there are two types of evolution, one which has been proven, the other hasn't.

There is micro evolution. This is for example, a fish that was able to swim faster and therefore hunt better would pass those traits to its offspring. After a while there would be more faster fish, the same fish, but slightly different. Or even simpler, how you have a standard poodle, a miniature poodle, and a toy poodle. All in the breeding. This is proven.

There is also macro evolution. This is the idea that after a very long period of time, a creature such as a sparrow could grow into an eagle. This is only a theory. At the present time there is quite a lot of missing evidence to support this theory, but theres enough that its semi viable. The one main thing to remember about this is, a LOT of things need to happen at the RIGHT time for anything to change in this way. Our current understanding of genetics pretty much says that you can't have a sparrow change into anything else even if its billions and billions of years.

Evolution to me is a little to random. How about these animals that DEPEND on each other to survive? Ever think about that for a second? A good example is the cleaner wrass and larger fish. The cleaner wrass eats parasites off of other fish, many that would normaly like to eat a small fish such as a cleaner wrass. They let the wrass clean them because it removes parasites. Now going by evolution, for this relationship to occur several things would need to happen. The wrasses would need to stop fearing their natural predators, and the predators would have to resist the urge to hunt the wrasses. The chances of this happening just arn't that great. Yet, we see similar situations all over the world.

There is such a perfect balance in the world and universe that its very difficult to believe that its all just a random chance. I think that there is plenty of evidence for inteligent design by God weather it be by evolution or some other way. Ya... keep in mind it is possible that God could have worked everything to how it is today BY evolution.

Also... we know that the universe came from somewhere. If we know that the universe must have had something before the big bang, is it THAT hard to believe that there's a God out there? There are many many things about the universe that we don't understand, its just as possible that God created the universe as it is the universe "created" its self.

trevorispro said:
not only this people are getting taller and men start to actually look better as the generations continue because women like good looking guys and by the laws of natural selection men lose traits that women find unattractive bvecause they need a better chance to survive and reproduce.
evolution is real nothing is perfect so I mean God could have created an unperfect human and then nature took charge to attempt to create a perfect world.

I would like to point out that this is micro evolution, not macro evolution. Please don't get the two confused.
 
I'm sorry to say that it isn't a viable arguement as most people seem to see our environment as being built around us where as we have developed in this environment and thats why it fits because we changed to survive it there have been thousands of different attempts at life through natural selection but only a few survived as they better suited there current enviroment.

this all covered by Darwins hypothesis on the evolution of man, based on his trip to the galapicos, and before anyone trys to bad mouth darwin for being against the church he wasn't infact his father worked for the church and darwan just wanted to educate the world
 
@ JuliaCoolo and Pandamore, I dont think that is evolution as the man is not adapting to its environment to survive it is just gaining different characteristics
 
kashmaster said:
@ JuliaCoolo and Pandamore, I don't think that is evolution as the man is not adapting to its environment to survive it is just gaining different characteristics

but if those characteristics make the man better able to live life, it is evolution.
 
kashmaster said:
@ JuliaCoolo and Pandamore, I don't think that is evolution as the man is not adapting to its environment to survive it is just gaining different characteristics

And why would man gain different characteristics, if not to adapt to its environment?
 
Symbiotic creatures existing actually supports the theory natural selection. The 2 animal (the 2 different kinds of fish in your example, one of which is a parasite-eater) working together would obviously have an evolutionary advantage over the 2 fish not working together. The big fish protects the smaller one, and the smaller one cleans the bigger one. Obviously, other fish (be it off-springs or fish of the same colony) would start following this example, and those who do will become the superior species. There aren't that many symbiotic organisms like that around, so this would mean that it is indeed quite rare for this to happen (as you stated), but over the course of millions of years, I don't see this randomly happening at least once being a problem.
Any living creature is an advanced symbiosis of cells anyway. Just look at ancient species like the sponge.

Macro evolution in itself has a lot of evidence. The problem is that you can never draw a straight line from one animal to another, as there will be many kind of animals which evolved, but were subdominant to other animals, and therefore became extinct. The Neanderthals, for example, colonised almost the whole of Europe, but because of the cold, not the fittest, the strongest or the smartest, but the ones better resistant to the cold survived. However, the Homo Sapiens, who did enjoy the true process of natural selection in Africa, were able to evolve more rapidly in terms of intelligence and the human body, causing them to just dominate the Neanderthals when they travelled to Europe.
As an example of what an evolutionary tree looks like, I give you the evolution of men:
http://www.austmus.gov.au/human_evolution/images/tree.gif[IMG]
This one really isn't complete, though, as there are a lot more humanoid fossils, all of which fit in there somewhere. The problem is also not "where is the missing link" but "who of these links to the human race". It is impossible to find fossils for every small step, that would be like trying to find a picture of every single moment in your life. Just because you don't have a picture doesn't mean nothing happened in-between. Of course, we can put God as a the reason for this small step, or we can do actual research, and find out what really happened.

About what was before the Big Bang, we do not know, and we do not claim we know. There are many theories which all seem viable, but there is little to no evidence supporting them. However, there is a lot of evidence for the Big Bang itself, some of which is given in the playlist linked to in my 1st post, if you really want to know.
But yes, we do not know how the big bang came to be, but, and here is where science differentiates itself from religion, instead of CLAIMING we know, we are honest, we don't know, but we're trying to find out. To me religion just seems like the easy way to answer things. Option 1: Find out what really happened through experiments and research, Option 2: Blame God.

I don't feel like reading through every post trice, so if you feel like I haven't countered an argument well enough, feel free to ask. I do not know everything about the subject, but I like to think that I'm at least rather well-educated. There's always a chance for me to learn something now :D
 
red blastoise said:
kashmaster said:
@ JuliaCoolo and Pandamore, I don't think that is evolution as the man is not adapting to its environment to survive it is just gaining different characteristics

but if those characteristics make the man better able to live life, it is evolution.

Sorry, but that is NOT really true evolution. This is another example of micro evolution, which is also known as natural selection. PLEASE keep the two straight, they are very different from each other.

To HS,

Since there is so much about the universe we don't know, isn't it entirely possible that God/angles/heaven/etc simply are in some other dimension or even another universe? Also, we don't just blame God for everything. :p There is plenty of evidence for there being a God out there. One last little point to make. For someone who believes in God its a win/win situation. If we're right and there is a God, then that's great, we go to heaven and live forever. If were wrong, there's nothing we can do about it anyway and we will wind up just like everyone else. ;) In pokemon terms, its like running Steelix with a coin that has heads on both sides. :p
 
I'd love to hear about your evidence towards the existence of God. I for one know that there is no evidence backed up by science, which means any "evidence" has not undergone the process from hypothesis to theory like pretty much everything in science, making it very dubious to say the least. I'd love to hear it, though, as there's a pretty big chance that I've heard it before (I've been in this kind of discussions quite a lot), in which case I might be able to debunk it.

I know it might seem like a win-win situation for you, but like I pointed out in my previous post, Religion tends to slow down science (increase of scientific knowledge and education causes an increase in atheism, many of the older scientific theories, whilst formed by Christians in a world where the bible was law, were against the will of the church, especially theories conflicting with the bible. It is also doubtful that these people, would they have lived today, would believe in God according to the bible, or any deity for that matter, considering their intellect. They would have not been baselessly arguing against the theory of evolution, that's for sure. I will however agree that the constant bickering between Evolutionists and Creationists has caused the theory of evolution to be more refined, albeit only a little, and a lot of people are very misinformed about the theory because of the Church). Stem cell research, for example, was not legal for religious reasons.
Religion also brings an extra form of discrimination, discrimination based on religion. I do not have to tell you what happened during Hilter's reign of Germany to people who resembled the every day German except for one little thing, their religion. No form of discrimination is justified whatsoever, though, I'm just saying this adds the possibility of. Some religions, at least in their extremest form, often encourage this sort of discrimination. Just look at how homophobic conservative America is.
Religion can also be used as a form of control, for example, the Pope still has a lot of power. This power is even used to tell Africans that they should not be using condoms, causing the Aids epidemic to still grow significantly. This is just not morally justified in any way.

Not only that, I personally would not be able to live my life knowing it is all one big lie to keep myself happy. The evidence against God (when you're at least not closing your mind for it) is pretty overwhelming. God has becoming more and more obscure over the years, from a solid entity living in the clouds to a vague description of the powers holding the universe together. The "omnipotence" of God is the only thing keeping science from disproving his existence. Because my friend Bob, who's sitting right next to me, cannot be seen, heard or touched. Good luck proving he does not exist.

I would also like to point out that going to heaven is a silly concept in itself. Every feature used to describe the human "soul" is located in the brain. We do not quite know how the brain works exactly, but we do know that removing certain bits and pieces of the human brain can change one's personality, behaviour, feelings, memories, everything. Ageing, drug abuse, brain diseases (Alzheimer for example) and so on also changes these. Then what would the soul still be? And even if this "soul" were to exist, it would not be your personality, your emotions, your memories. Therefore, it would not be you. So what's the point making sure something goes to heaven, when whatever you are will perish together with the decomposition of your brain. Be sure to counter this argument (when possible) with decent arguments, not with silly hypothesises with no evidence to back them up whatsoever. Because it's pretty simple to counter every argument when "no rules apply". I know there are usually a lot of senseless arguments used to counter this, and I don't feel like countering every single one of them, when simple logic can do that for you anyway.
 
I want you guys to just look this site over. Actually read the stuff, too.

http://proofthatgodexists.org/

Also, I don't think that this should be discussed here. Isn't this site made up of people around 12? I remember hearing this somewhere. Also, I think there are a lot more atheists than theists.
 
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