#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?

[afstandopleren]

The fact is (I've said this before in this thread) that God is just a simple answer. And every time we find the real answer, the definition of God becomes more and more obscure. What's the point of God when he's not even needed for anything, and you're just using him to answer questions you otherwise wouldn't be able to answer? Wouldn't trying to find the answer be more logical?

Science and religion could co-exist, but it's pointless when science has actual evidence for one, and doesn't leave much room for God anyway.

Uhm not to be bothersome, but ancient civilizations had religions that perfectly merged the whole God/Science thing. Then again, those civilizations often had more then 1 God. Those pagans! >=O

And just so you know, currently scientists are pretty much stuck as we have explained how every dead thing works in the way that our paradigm allows us to think/know that it works like that.

 

[DarthPika]

As far as evolution goes, I honestly believe there is no intervention from a divine being going on here. I'm not even going to expand my point here, because if you want my opinion on that matter then just read Spoon's posts.

However, my trust in science being the only explanation starts to falter as I consider not life, but the universe as a whole. All my doubts are basically expressed in this thread here. I wouldn't go as far to say that a God of some form is the only other alternative explanation, but there is certainly something very curious going on here.

Thanks for posting that link to that thread, you saved me a LOT of typing.

Science can only go so far. There are all these little quirks that it just cant explain, such as the "magic" numbers scampy talks about in that link.

Also, one BIG problem with the whole idea of how the universe evolved on its own, and its a heck of a big one. I don't remember the name of it, but its a law that pretty much states that a system (a system could be your room, the world, the universe etc) tends to go from an orderly state to a disorderly state, with more and more energy being needed to keep the system in an orderly state. This is easily seen in say a building. The building when first built will be in an orderly state. As time goes on, the system(the building) will start to go towards a disorderly state as it decays and falls apart. EVERYTHING in the universe works like this. Evolution says that somehow everything is always trying to be more perfect, yet this directly contradicts this law. It all doesn't quite work.

 

[Ka$h Money]

They don't actively change their body to adapt to the environment. It works like this:
Creature exists, and has specific DNA
Creature has babies, these babies' DNA is slightly different that that of the parent(s), it's called mutation, and it's a fact.
Most of these babies are barely different, but one of them is somehow better adapted to the environment (because of the mutation) and therefore has more of a chance at survival.
Baby A, the one with the positive mutation, will live longer, and will therefore have more other babies, also because the other animals will want to mate with Baby A, because they will see that he is superior. (in microbiology, the others die, whilst Baby A lives and is able to duplicate)
Baby A passes on his or her genes to his or her babies, and the cycle continues.

It's also explained (with images, yay!) in one of the vids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_RXX7pntr8&feature=PlayList&p=DB23537556D7AADB&index=6

EDIT: I will be gone for quite some time now, don't overwhelm me too much

My question is what causes the Dna to be different and what are the odds that this mutation will be benificial as most mutation come from ionising radiation and that is obviously not a good thing/?

 

[Pokémaniac]

As far as evolution goes, I honestly believe there is no intervention from a divine being going on here. I'm not even going to expand my point here, because if you want my opinion on that matter then just read Spoon's posts.

However, my trust in science being the only explanation starts to falter as I consider not life, but the universe as a whole. All my doubts are basically expressed in this thread here. I wouldn't go as far to say that a God of some form is the only other alternative explanation, but there is certainly something very curious going on here.

Thanks for posting that link to that thread, you saved me a LOT of typing.

Science can only go so far. There are all these little quirks that it just cant explain, such as the "magic" numbers scampy talks about in that link.

Also, one BIG problem with the whole idea of how the universe evolved on its own, and its a heck of a big one. I don't remember the name of it, but its a law that pretty much states that a system (a system could be your room, the world, the universe etc) tends to go from an orderly state to a disorderly state, with more and more energy being needed to keep the system in an orderly state. This is easily seen in say a building. The building when first built will be in an orderly state. As time goes on, the system(the building) will start to go towards a disorderly state as it decays and falls apart. EVERYTHING in the universe works like this. Evolution says that somehow everything is always trying to be more perfect, yet this directly contradicts this law. It all doesn't quite work.

I don't know too much science, and don't know that law, but evolution spreading out into different species directly goes in line with that. I mean, you start with an "orderly" amount of little organisms(1), then it splits and becomes different, wait a few(million) years and it's nothing the same-it's become "disorderly".

Yes, it is a viable argument- in fact, it's the only one making me give my beliefs a second look. But, it isn't the nail in the coffin(Actually, I don't think its made it to the coffin at all yet, let alone gotten near the nailing stage.). If a "divine" entity exists though, it probably isn't one from any religion.

 

[Forum Shark]

Lol, "The Proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn't prove anything."
Absolutely true, you cannot prove anything, nothing is definite, laws of nature can be altered, maths is decided by axioms, which can be changed (there a millions of different maths, all with their own laws. Our most known form of maths is based on the world around us, but that doesn't mean that other maths is not possible. For example, it it perfectly possible (and very easy) to calculate stuff in the 4th dimension). Morals are also never definite, homophobia is perfectly normal to some, and child Stolen might as well be normal in some cultures where it might be an initiation to, you know. It might not seem right at all to us, but in some cultures, for some species, whatever, it might be.

The site you linked to is very narrow-minded.

Also, if God is so very obvious, how come so many different tribes in the world don't even know about him? God is not making himself obvious to us at all, if he even exists.

That site was just weird, but fails to provide any kind of evidence, and made a sudden big jump from "rationality exists" to "God exists because otherwise you can't prove he exists".

Wait... did I read that correctly? Child Stolen could be okay? In some cultures, they do that, but it is not okay, EVER! If you are saying that morals are only a matter of opinion, then Hitler killing 6 million Jews is fine because he though it was good for Germany? That's what I gather from you statement.
If morals is simply opinion, than why are there rules at all?

How do you know anything without God? What do you know? Do you know everything? If so, how do you know that? If not, how do you know that? How do you decide what is right or wrong? Christians have a basis for morals, while atheists do not.

 

[afstandopleren]

Lol, "The Proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn't prove anything."
Absolutely true, you cannot prove anything, nothing is definite, laws of nature can be altered, maths is decided by axioms, which can be changed (there a millions of different maths, all with their own laws. Our most known form of maths is based on the world around us, but that doesn't mean that other maths is not possible. For example, it it perfectly possible (and very easy) to calculate stuff in the 4th dimension). Morals are also never definite, homophobia is perfectly normal to some, and child Stolen might as well be normal in some cultures where it might be an initiation to, you know. It might not seem right at all to us, but in some cultures, for some species, whatever, it might be.

The site you linked to is very narrow-minded.

Also, if God is so very obvious, how come so many different tribes in the world don't even know about him? God is not making himself obvious to us at all, if he even exists.

That site was just weird, but fails to provide any kind of evidence, and made a sudden big jump from "rationality exists" to "God exists because otherwise you can't prove he exists".

Wait... did I read that correctly? Child Stolen could be okay? In some cultures, they do that, but it is not okay, EVER! If you are saying that morals are only a matter of opinion, then Hitler killing 6 million Jews is fine because he though it was good for Germany? That's what I gather from you statement.
If morals is simply opinion, than why are there rules at all?

How do you know anything without God? What do you know? Do you know everything? If so, how do you know that? If not, how do you know that? How do you decide what is right or wrong? Christians have a basis for morals, while atheists do not.

Actually, you are not going to like this, but EVERYTHING, even moral opinions differ. Sure, we think of it as something horrible, but for some tribe living in the jungle it might just be part of a ritual AKA making it okay.

Christians have a basis for morals? Don't make me laugh.... >_> How many examples in Christian history do you want to be told in order to get that Christianity isn't the most saint religion?

 

[Forum Shark]

Moral OPINIONS differ. However, the Bible says what is right and wrong, and so we, as Christians, can have a basis for morality. For example, child molestation and murdering 6 million Jews is wrong. It is always wrong, and will always be wrong.

That last paragraph; Yes, we do have a basis for morals. It's called The Holy Bible. The word of God, who created you, and everything on the Earth. I didn't quite understand what you meant by a "saint religion", but I think you're saying that Christians still do wrong things? (Please explain.) Of course Christians do wrong things. Are we not human? We are all born sinners.

Again, I REALLY don't think this should be discussed on a Pokemon forum, but I will defend myself, and my beliefs.

 

[afstandopleren]

It's okay that you defend your religion. Still, who are we to say that something is right or wrong when others have a complete different understanding of what we think is right/wrong?

And I know that the bible is geared towards peace, love, harmony and anything positive, but it has often been used for negative goals in the past and still is in the pressent.

Now for something different about the God subject. I think the true meaning of God has been lost in translation. Lot's of religions that worship the same God are continuously in conflict, only because they think their God is the only God. Which is IMHO utterly dumb and stupid. There are som many different books preaching 'the same thing' in different ways like how to worship God etc., that the unity seems to be gone.

I'm having a very hard time to put the last part to words, mostly because English isn't my first language. I do hope I can get my point across with it.. =/

 

[Forum Shark]

It's okay that you defend your religion. Still, who are we to say that something is right or wrong when others have a complete different understanding of what we think is right/wrong?

And I know that the bible is geared towards peace, love, harmony and anything positive, but it has often been used for negative goals in the past and still is in the pressent.

Now for something different about the God subject. I think the true meaning of God has been lost in translation. Lots of religions that worship the same God are continuously in conflict, only because they think their God is the only God. Which is IMHO utterly dumb and stupid. There are som many different books preaching 'the same thing' in different ways like how to worship God etc., that the unity seems to be gone.

I'm having a very hard time to put the last part to words, mostly because English isn't my first language. I do hope I can get my point across with it.. =/

In response to your first paragraph:
Who am I to say? No one. Good thing it's not me that determines what is right. It's God! GOD! He created all things, including you!
When has the Bible been used for evil?
Our God is the only God because he has always been, and always will be. Other groups build statues of rock and gold, or have multiple Gods. This is to please themselves. Even Catholicism has saints for everything, and their treated like Gods!

I am still curious as to how you account for morality.

 

[afstandopleren]

How about the Spanish inquisition? Forcing 'pagans' to believe in the Bible/God. That's an awfully dark page in the history of God religions right there. And this is just 1 simple obvious example but I am to hay feverish to think of something complicated.

My morality develops as I go through life (I don't really believe in God but I also don't believe there is nothing devine). From the things I experience, I change and adjust my point of view of what is good and what is bad. It's what I believe make me, me. I always try to keep my mind open, even for things that I think are really bad because I believe everything happens for a reason. I guess you can say that I believe in Life itself instead of God.

Mind you, I was Catholic once so I know a good deal of what the Bible stands for, but that really wasn't my thing.

 

[Forum Shark]

The Spanish Inquisition was the work of the Catholic church. I am not a Catholic, I am a Christian. Catholicism is a Christian variant. So, I kind of knocked that down. Give me a Christian example. Maybe I should have been specific.

So, you learn from your experiences? Are you saying you know what you do because of your senses? Have you ever heard of a mirage? It's when your mind cannot interpret what is happening. How sure are you that your senses are reliable?

 

[afstandopleren]

I don't know. No one knows. All I know is that I think I know that what I know is true for me. Sure it might all be a rouse of some kind, but I opt not to use Religion as a tool to help clear things up that suck about my life.

As for the first paragraph, I'd love to respond, but I can't think clearly atm. I will give you an good example of what actual Christians have done if my head is empty.

Also, I'm not here to knock you off your faith, NOR am I out to crush any religion. That's something I want to have cleared up.

 

[Forum Shark]

I realize that you don't want to hurt anyone's beliefs. I don't want to hurt anyone else's either. This is a Pokemon forum full of people around 12, so I expect it to get nasty. However, I will defend myself.

I am not using my beliefs to "clear things that suck" (?) I belive what I do because it make sense. You saying you believe what you believe because "It's right for me" is actually a little hypocritical. You are simply trying to make things easier, and taking the easy way out by saying "I can do what I want because morals are a matter of opinion". If only life were like that.

 

[darkrai master777]

Here's an interesting fact: many of the same scientists that proclaimed that there is no God (or any other higher entities for that matter) in recent years have been committing suicide. Why? Because they, themselves believe that there is nothingness beyond life. Therefore, they have given up. Lost all hope. Quit.

I think that, even if there was no higher entity (which, I think there is, being a christian btw) the belief that someone is watching out for you is a sign of hope (a thing of which we desperately need, especially in this day and age) thus keeping one more sane, more relaxed, and, ultimately, happier with ones accomplishments. So go ahead. try to argue me out of my beliefs. In the end, there is nothing you can say nor do to change my mind. Nothing.

 

[~Magma King~]

So people should turn to something they know isn't true so they can escape reality?

 

[darkrai master777]

Look who's talking. It's not an escape from reality. It's the truth.

... I take it from your silence that you think I'm right.

 

[afstandopleren]

We don't know what is real so we don't know what reality actually is. In this society, we are being bombarded with information, true and false. And because of the line being so thin, it's easy to get misinformed and hard to find the true bits. Remember that history is always written by those who won and conquered.

---

I realize that you don't want to hurt anyone's beliefs. I don't want to hurt anyone else's either. This is a Pokemon forum full of people around 12, so I expect it to get nasty. However, I will defend myself.

I am not using my beliefs to "clear things that suck" (?) I belive what I do because it make sense. You saying you believe what you believe because "It's right for me" is actually a little hypocritical. You are simply trying to make things easier, and taking the easy way out by saying "I can do what I want because morals are a matter of opinion". If only life were like that.

Maybe it's denial on your side or maybe because you don't have the same point of view or it might just be that you are not open to it. I don't have the answer and chances are neither do you.

Let me be a hypocrite, if that makes you happy cause I know that I'm not the only one.

The Christian religion has been around for a loooooooong time. Couldn't it be possible that it is different in contents then it was then?

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

My morals: I don't do to others what I don't want other to do upon me. Do I need a deity or a book for this? No.
Would I ever dare commit homicide, Stolen, burglary, and so on? Probably not.
You just give an example of how the Bible is a way of keeping the people tame, yet, if you look at reality, it doesn't seem to help much.
There is also no "Good" and "Bad", for anything you consider bad, I could probably find someone who thinks it good. Hitler, for example, apparently thought the Holocaust was a pretty neat idea.

Bacon, the fact that a lot of stuff in our universe makes life possible just hints towards the theories that there might be more than 1 universe, and that we happen to have life in this one, because, well, us being here wouldn't be possible otherwise. What goes before the Big Bang is still unknown, so questioning everything based on that seems rather silly.
Life in other universes might be impossible, but you can't say "the chances of us being here in this one are very small", because we just wouldn't be able to exist there.

darkrai master777, if there's nothing after life, why wouldn't you live life to the fullest and enjoy it while you can, instead of just waiting for it to end, so you can enter some made-up fantasy world. I also doubt the greatness of your "many". I for one have not considered suicide even once, and I'm denying the existence of God right here, right now.

God creates the Big Brother effect, someone's watching you, so don't screw up. I think this can just as well lead to madness as living a life without God. Have fun living in your little prejudice world, but I'm a very nice person and have rarely ever done a thing wrong in my life, yet I don't believe in any sort of deity.
And way to be wanting to stay ignorant, closing your mind for knowledge. If you people are so very convinced of your believes, why are you all avoiding debate?

 

[Ka$h Money]

Yet doesn't the big brother effect make people act better towards each other otherwise they would be violating God's law?

Don't you think that the way scientist have shown how evolution has occured is to complex to work?

Also heavenly do you have a video which tells me how an animal evolved? Im not saying from randomness as nothing in life is random even though science has some what relied on it. Nothing occurs randomly and there is always a reason what caused the gene in the being to mutate into a beneficial cell?

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

It makes them act like Big Brother wants them to, this is not necessarily best, this just means there's a way of controlling the people.

Too complex? "God did it, full stop." Don't you think that's too easy? Nothing in life is truly simple, but everything in evolution fits in our modern scientific structure and fails to contradict physics, biology, chemistry, whatever. Something being simple or not doesn't affect whether it's true or not.

Evolution is not random, the strongest survive and breed, the weakest don't, that's simple logic. This vid (to which I already linked you, seriously, watch the playlist) explains how it works, not through being random, but logically:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_RXX7pntr8&feature=PlayList&p=DB23537556D7AADB&index=6

As for random mutations, that's because nothing is perfect, contrary to what religion claims.