#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?

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... Did I say you were a scientist? No. Did I say anything about the afterlife, or heaven, or reincarnation? No. I don't touch that subject. Agreeing about creation is a hard enough thing to do.

Let me put it you this way. There are 6 main world views. Each view is bigger than the last.

View one: Material. Your view, Heavenly spoon. The view is simply this: Live it up while you can, because life holds no meaning.
View two: Defeatist. We're all doomed to nothingness, so we give up. Bigger than view one.
View three: Revenge. The world is against me, so I have to take out my frustration upon it and its inhabitants. This view is commonly held by terrorists. Bigger than view two.
View four: Ambition. I can win life by becoming powerful/rich. Bigger than view three.
View Five: Repentance. I did wrong, therefore, if I do good works, I can live freely. Bigger than view four.
View six: Righteousness. My view. I will do good unto others, without expecting good things to be done to me. This view is commonly held within Christian and Catholic beliefs. Bigger than view five.

It's been awhile since I last said this, so forgive me if I messed up on a couple of the smaller points.
 
I doubt view 3 is more prominent than view 1, you sure you're not stereotyping Muslims or something weird?

View 6 seems to make it easy to push people around. I know religion was used (and is still used) to make sure people behave and don't try to challenge the authorities.

Also, just because something is more morally justified (which it isn't necessarily) doesn't mean it's right. Imagine if we'd all be perfect thinking cows are reading our minds and will kill us all if we weren't. This would mean we'd all be perfect, but this doesn't make what we think reality.

EDIT: kashmaster, changes in the DNA causes the replication of cells to be different, therefore giving an animal more hair, longer necks, whatever.
 
1. I don't stereotype anybody.
2. I'm horrible at debates, but I don't give up on them.
3. I can't make you believe in anything. It's your choice on what to believe and what not to believe.

But before I leave (I've gotta sleep), here's some food for thought.
If life came from nothingness, Where did nothingness come from? While I'm on the subject, where did matter come from? What started life? How are we so complex? How can we think freely? How does the imagination work? How does reality work? Is reality actually real?

Think about it.
 
I really have to get this off my chest about Christians/Islamic/whatevers and some other 'strict' religions. I can't seem to get past the fact that every time something is proposed that doesn't fit in the Christians/Islamic/whatevers way of believe (like a tiny thing that makes someone else believe that God doesn't exist to call an example), they take a defensive stance. It annoys me as it happens 99% of the time and it makes them complete stereotypes in my paradigm. I am annoyed by the fact that because they do that, they label themselves as short sighted and God dependant. I still don't have anything against religions, but against those people with utterly silly reactions.

darkrai master777 said:
1. I don't stereotype anybody.
2. I'm horrible at debates, but I don't give up on them.
3. I can't make you believe in anything. It's your choice on what to believe and what not to believe.

But before I leave (I've gotta sleep), here's some food for thought.
If life came from nothingness, Where did nothingness come from? While I'm on the subject, where did matter come from? What started life? How are we so complex? How can we think freely? How does the imagination work? How does reality work? Is reality actually real?

Think about it.
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WE DON'T KNOW. And we don't know if we will ever know what/how/why we exist and what there was before we existed and got conscious. AGAIN, this is one of those things that I believe makes people grasp for the Bible because they want the answer this instant and if they can't, they would have to live with the scary questions that we can't even grasp, let alone understand the answer.
 
Watch the playlist, it answers all those questions perfectly. Short answers, though:
"If life came from nothingness, Where did nothingness come from?"
No idea, we don't know (yet). Science has never been afraid to admit that it doesn't have an answer for something, scientists just see this as a challenge.

"where did matter come from"
Big bang for Hydrogen and Helium, the others were formed within stars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMQk6MveZOE&feature=PlayList&p=DB23537556D7AADB&index=1

"What started life?"
Scroll up and read
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8nYTJf62sE&feature=PlayList&p=DB23537556D7AADB&index=3

"How are we so complex?"
Ditto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_RXX7pntr8&feature=PlayList&p=DB23537556D7AADB&index=6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCayG4IIOEQ&feature=PlayList&p=DB23537556D7AADB&index=8

"How can we think freely?"
"How does the imagination work?"
The brain is a cooperation of A LOT of nerve cells, working together. When a lot of things with a very low intelligence of the same kind come together and just react to what the others do, they can become very complex. Just think of a school of fish, and how they act like one big creature swimming through the ocean, avoiding predators, and so on. Of course, the brain is has more braincells, which all have a lot more contact with each other. I'd need to find a vid for this, as I don't have one readily available. If you really want to know, I could try finding you one.

"How does reality work? Is reality actually real?"
It just does, and how would we know if it weren't? What's the point in doing any research when you're going to claim it's all a dream anyway? It might as well be, but we don't know, because we're restricted to this dream. All we can do is try to find out how this funny little dream works. We can also sit around and do nothing, but I like the 1st option just a little more.

But seriously, why should I be able to answer everything? I try to find real answers, not come up with stuff, unlike what the people who came up with what you believe in did.
 
Forum Shark said:
Our God is the only God because he has always been, and always will be. Other groups build statues of rock and gold, or have multiple Gods. This is to please themselves. Even Catholicism has saints for everything, and their treated like Gods!
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This is slightly off topic, but is something that I must clarify. It is a common, and very irritating misconception that Catholics worship the saints and treat them like gods. We, just like every other Christan worship only one god. We ask the saints to pray for us, but we don't think in any way that they are actually gods. We see them as more of someone to help us along on the way to heaven. Kind of like having a friend who knows the road ahead helping you on your journey. Please don't fall for the many very odd things that are said about Catholics. Most of them aren't true, and many of them are simply something very simple that is misunderstood.

Back on topic now...

HS, you place to much faith in something which HARDLY qualifies as a theory. Yes, there is evidence that supports it, but then again, if that evidence is misinterpreted you can easily have everything wrong. I's along the lines of,"if these numbers mean this, then this must be true" where as, if those numbers don't mean what ever you think they represent, heaven only knows what your looking at.

Also, explain how even though most mutations are harmful, all these animals evolved so nicely? Furthermore, how is it possible that not only were these mutations helpful, but they must have happened to more than one of X animal at a time? You can't seriously believe that one random mutation of X animal would suddenly cause the whole species (assuming that X animal survives) to evolve into Y animal over a given period of time? Science is so orderly, yet evolution is so random. It really doesn't add up.

On a side note, do I believe that the creation of the universe happened JUST like it was told in the story of Adam and Eve and that it was made in EXACTLY 7 days? Not really. I take it as a story that tells that God created the universe, nothing more. I've never understood why anyone would care if it took God 7 days or 7000000 years to make the universe as it doesn't really matter when you get down to it. :rolleyes:

And yes, God could have created the universe through evolution. This would explain how species could evolve so nicely. Don't take this as a fact, but it certainly could have happened.
 
I dont really buy what science is selling. Knowing how science works, usually by tomorrow or in a x amount of time, that theory will be old and proved wrong. Chasing behind all the facts as a regular not science-y person is a bit tiresome to do.
 
hmm.. well I don't believe in God. The whole evolution theory well it just fits, animals are still evolving (over a million years orso we probably don't have toes anymore, but just big squary feet xD) the cause of our smartness comparing to other animals has to do with few facts:
1. we are one of the less animals with a personality (recognising yourself)
2. and the animals who do have a personality don't have a big enough brain mass
3. why should an animal be smarter if they can survive the way they are now?
4. there were animals as smart as humans (humans from many years ago) too, example: the Neanderthal, but they extincted cuz of the global warming, the weren't build for warm weather and maybe because some other reasons, otherwise they maybe evolved into the intelligent species of Earth


afstandopleren, i think the same, if there's something what can't be explained immediately most religion people are scared and say it's a cause of God, if you think about it and go investigate instead of looking in the Bible (or other religious books) then you would discover it's very logic. It just scares the people they aren't the smartest and don't everything, i'm fine with that, i accept i don't know everything and i also wouldn't ever, but i will try to make something good of my life and i'll probably going to investgate the universe and such and try to get to know as much as possible and helping the people in the future with better changes of surviving


Heavenly Spoon, i've heard some theory that life (DNA) does exist in whole the universe and always had lived in it, some cells accidently came on Earth, sounds interesting, but i don't know...


And even for the people who are believers in Evolution (and know physics and such) there's one thing you don't must do, and that's thinking complex and difficult. Then a lot more questions will be answered, did the Big Bang cause the creating of the universe: No, how can every matter, dark-matter and dark-energy come from one explosion, then everything would have to start in a few micro-meters (and even smaller) time and space don't have an end, neither a begining, what if the universe has a infinite space, what if the universe already always existed and never dies... (think of the conservation law, the energy wouldn't waste and you can't create energy without other energy, so does the universe work)

srry long post :p
 
afstandopleren said:
I don't really buy what science is selling. Knowing how science works, usually by tomorrow or in a x amount of time, that theory will be old and proved wrong. Chasing behind all the facts as a regular not science-y person is a bit tiresome to do.
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The theory of evolution has been around for 150 years and science has only been able to enhance the theory, many new fields of sciene created after the theory only compliment the theory. Science keeps on evolving, but a lot of the stuff we know as regular people rarely get changed, because they're pretty much a fact by now. And even if it's proven that some things are relative (like Einstein did with mass and time), it's very rare for this to cause what we know to be wrong, it usually only affects stuff in very extreme conditions.

DarthPika, if you think it hardly qualifies as a theory (and a scientific theory pretty much equals a fact, including a reason why, it's superior to, say, a law (like the law of gravity)), then you obviously know very little of the theory.
Biology, of which the theory of evolution is part, is nowhere near an exact science. When animals mate, the genetic features get passed on to the offspring. Don't expect everything to happen in the blink of an eye, it's gradual changes over the course of millions of years which cause 1 kind of animal to evolve into another.
And mutations aren't always harmful. Being taller than your father is also a mutation, having slightly faster-growing toenails is as well. Everything that's different in your DNA compared to that of your parents is a mutation. The only mutations we commonly notice are the negative ones, which is why you're confused.

EDIT: Pokequaza, any theory claiming that life on Earth came from another planet is silly, because it's perfectly plausible for it to be formed on Earth for one, and because it would had to have formed on the other planet AND it would have had to move to Earth, that's just overcomplicating stuff without a reason.
 
Darwin's theory is like a religion. As long people believe in it, it will stay. Oh do I long for Darwin to die out. Seriously, shouldn't we have evolved our way of thinking now into something that is capable of grasping something that proofs Darwin horribly wrong?? Or do we keep supporting some dead guy's perception of how he thinks it works just because we can't think of an answer ourselves?

Really Spoon, I can use logic to, but just because a dead guy's idea is still stuck in our paradigm doesn't mean we have to stick with it.
 
afstandopleren said:
Darwin's theory is like a religion. As long people believe in it, it will stay. Oh do I long for Darwin to die out. Seriously, shouldn't we have evolved our way of thinking now into something that is capable of grasping something that proofs Darwin horribly wrong?? Or do we keep supporting some dead guy's perception of how he thinks it works just because we can't think of an answer ourselves?
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If a theory has existed for 150 years and has not been proven wrong yet, and every single new science which even slightly related to this theory, from the discovery of DNA to the discovery of molecules, from the way cells work to the formation of the universe, compliments and further elaborates on the theory, I think it's viable to say that it's not just a silly belief.

Darwin's theory just fits, it's either accepting that, or claiming that we can never find anything out and just stop bother trying, in which case we'll get nowhere real fast. I'm against trying to come up with an answer because we just don't know how, but in the theory of evolution's case, we do have a lot of evidence, and we're pretty certain it's how it happened. Denying something when something's so very obvious is just as silly as coming up with your own answers. There's nothing wrong with being sceptical, it's what every scientists should be, but being sceptical for no reason is silly.
 
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
If a theory has existed for 150 years and has not been proven wrong yet, and every single new science which even slightly related to this theory, from the discovery of DNA to the discovery of molecules, from the way cells work to the formation of the universe, compliments and further elaborates on the theory, I think it's viable to say that it's not just a silly belief.

Darwin's theory just fits, it's either accepting that, or claiming that we can never find anything out and just stop bother trying, in which case we'll get nowhere real fast. I'm against trying to come up with an answer because we just don't know how, but in the theory of evolution's case, we do have a lot of evidence, and we're pretty certain it's how it happened. Denying something when something's so very obvious is just as silly as coming up with your own answers. There's nothing wrong with being sceptical, it's what every scientists should be, but being sceptical for no reason is silly.
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Yup i think you're right, and it isn't that complex if you want to understand it, and afstandopleren please don't say evolution is a religion, the ones who say evolution is the way it is don't believe in a god or a higher being like other religions, we just want to know the facts and how life started evolving, ends and evolves at the moment (well i probably don't should start talking about other dimensions :p)
 
What part of science is stuck the way it is now do I need to make clear? =/

I happen to know a decent amount for a science noob about Quantum sciences. The reason why I have faith in this kind of science is that it is actually open to the unexplained and therefor, walks paths that normal science would avoid at all costs. Can we teleport? Can we travel in time? Current 'normal' science says no, but what if people in the Quantum part of science say you can? Will controversy ensue? Science keeps denying the unexplained while those people close to the unexplained believe it's real and who are the scientists to 'burst that bubble'?
 
afstandopleren said:
What part of science is stuck the way it is now do I need to make clear? =/

I happen to know a decent amount for a science noob about Quantum sciences. The reason why I have faith in this kind of science is that it is actually open to the unexplained and therefor, walks paths that normal science would avoid at all costs. Can we teleport? Can we travel in time? Current 'normal' science says no, but what if people in the Quantum part of science say you can? Will controversy ensue? Science keeps denying the unexplained while those people close to the unexplained believe it's real and who are the scientists to 'burst that bubble'?
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Wha... ok, so you don't believe in Evolution but you do in Quantum science? that's fine :) well i believe in both sciences, normal science is just the way it is and can be explained etc. so just facts, quantum science are more speculations, and most of them are true, yes we can teleport, yes we can travel in time (yes i do know how :)) but those can also be explained with normal science... but when it goes about quantum science mostly i have my own speculations... people have to think more freely, there's more possible than most people ever think...
 
Normal science states that stuff like teleportation is impossible in normal conditions. Quantum physics just changes the rules, this doesn't mean the normal rules no longer apply, and that all of the old research should be disregarded. Like I said, when relativity is added to a law or theory, this just restricts the area in which the law or theory applies, this doesn't mean it's wrong.
Quantum physics doesn't even touch evolution, evolution is part of biology, which is a science based upon observation and research, not on mathematics and calculations. I know there's some chemistry involved, but this doesn't mean that changes in quantum physics will suddenly show us that the way we think molecules work is all wrong.

And If I'm not mistaken, we've been able to teleport very small particles already.
 
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
Normal science states that stuff like teleportation is impossible in normal conditions. Quantum physics just changes the rules, this doesn't mean the normal rules no longer apply, and that all of the old research should be disregarded. Like I said, when relativity is added to a law or theory, this just restricts the area in which the law or theory applies, this doesn't mean it's wrong.

And If I'm not mistaken, we've been able to teleport very small particles already.
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Well we almost are able to transport, a Scientist... uhmm Ronald Mallett is almost able to do, he has an idea how to, (and it's sounds logic) we don't have the materials to make it yet...
 
That is why I like Quantum science. It makes people use their brain for once and let them figure out that A doesn't always lead to B without having gone to C or D first (I hated that in school).
 
afstandopleren said:
That is why I like Quantum science. It makes people use their brain for once and let them figure out that A doesn't always lead to B without having gone to C or D first (I hated that in school).
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If A leads to B numerous times in the same conditions, it's very likely that it will always lead to B in those conditions. Just because you define a new bunch of conditions doesn't mean this all suddenly changes, it just means your conditions get more restricted. Quantum physics doesn't restrict the conditions in which evolution applies, though.
 
afstandopleren said:
That is why I like Quantum science. It makes people use their brain for once and let them figure out that A doesn't always lead to B without having gone to C or D first (I hated that in school).
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I like it too, but like Heavenly Spoon already said, you don't must forget the 'normal' science rules (well i suck at physics, chemistry not, but physics, quantum science hasn't to be 100% true, 99% is enough, if there's just an idea, well that's the point 'normal' science comes and binds it to rules and laws (no offense, i like they do, so it's easier to explain) but sometimes they can make it almost impossible and too complicated... :(

schools have to change anyway their way of teaching...
 
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