#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?

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Heavenly Spoon :F said:
Normal science states that stuff like teleportation is impossible in normal conditions. Quantum physics just changes the rules, this doesn't mean the normal rules no longer apply, and that all of the old research should be disregarded. Like I said, when relativity is added to a law or theory, this just restricts the area in which the law or theory applies, this doesn't mean it's wrong.
Quantum physics doesn't even touch evolution, evolution is part of biology, which is a science based upon observation and research, not on mathematics and calculations. I know there's some chemistry involved, but this doesn't mean that changes in quantum physics will suddenly show us that the way we think molecules work is all wrong.

And If I'm not mistaken, we've been able to teleport very small particles already.
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Rules are made to be broken so new rules can be set. =P

And why do you say that Quantum physics doesn't involve evolution? That's like saying science doesn't involve cold logic. >_>
Evolution can also be changing your thinking pattern to improve your life's quality.

Who says what the normal conditions are or what they need to be for particles to teleport? Again normal science does that. Then how did people make it happen? By thinking out of the box, meaning, thinking in a not very science way.

There is more I want to say but I can't put it to words ATM. You will see it when the time comes for me to know the way to put onto paper.
 
afstandopleren said:
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
Normal science states that stuff like teleportation is impossible in normal conditions. Quantum physics just changes the rules, this doesn't mean the normal rules no longer apply, and that all of the old research should be disregarded. Like I said, when relativity is added to a law or theory, this just restricts the area in which the law or theory applies, this doesn't mean it's wrong.
Quantum physics doesn't even touch evolution, evolution is part of biology, which is a science based upon observation and research, not on mathematics and calculations. I know there's some chemistry involved, but this doesn't mean that changes in quantum physics will suddenly show us that the way we think molecules work is all wrong.

And If I'm not mistaken, we've been able to teleport very small particles already.
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Rules are made to be broken so new rules can be set. =P

And why do you say that Quantum physics doesn't involve evolution? That's like saying science doesn't involve cold logic. >_>
Evolution can also be changing your thinking pattern to improve your life's quality.

Who says what the normal conditions are or what they need to be for particles to teleport? Again normal science does that. Then how did people make it happen? By thinking out of the box, meaning, thinking in a not very science way.

There is more I want to say but I can't put it to words ATM. You will see it when the time comes for me to know the way to put onto paper.
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Your true about that, the 'normal' science isn't 100% accurate, it are just laws which fits physical things, after a time when new things are discoverd and scientist discover some laws aren't right they will be removed for some new more accurate ones, that's how it works
 
There are actually people saying that mutation isn't the main engine behind evolution (natural selection still applying, though). The theory of evolution is constantly evolving (pun intended but not funny), just like every other science.

The theory of evolution was pretty out of the box at the time anyway, and there's no box to climb out of which would prove the theory of evolution wrong, and on Earth, I doubt there'd be another way life formed, especially considering the evidence. Feel free to prove me wrong, but if 150 years of science and a lot of creationists weren't able to do it, I doubt you'd be able to.

(The time argument doesn't apply to religion because everything contradicting Christianity was banned at the time, nice try, though)
 
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
There are actually people saying that mutation isn't the main engine behind evolution (natural selection still applying, though). The theory of evolution is constantly evolving (pun intended but not funny), just like every other science.

The theory of evolution was pretty out of the box at the time anyway, and there's no box to climb out of which would prove the theory of evolution wrong, and on Earth, I doubt there'd be another way life formed, especially considering the evidence. Feel free to prove me wrong, but if 150 years of science and a lot of creationists weren't able to do it, I doubt you'd be able to.

(The time argument doesn't apply to religion because everything contradicting Christianity was banned at the time, nice try, though)
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Evolution is nothing else than adapting to the climate and environment, of course also defending itself and getting faster/more defensive/and creating changes to make it easier to get food etc., just evolving to be better than other species and be better and surviving and such...
 
I said natural selection is of course still the engine behind evolution, but mutation might not be that important in creating new species, as there are ways for evolutionary qualities to expand, so that mutation can happen in bigger steps than previously assumed. Not THAT big of a difference, but it shows that the theory is still constantly being updated and refined.
 
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
I said natural selection is of course still the engine behind evolution, but mutation might not be that important in creating new species, as there are ways for evolutionary qualities to expand, so that mutation can happen in bigger steps than previously assumed. Not THAT big of a difference, but it shows that the theory is still constantly being updated and refined.
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I didn't say you were wrong ;)
 
kashmaster said:
My question is what causes the Dna to be different and what are the odds that this mutation will be benificial as most mutation come from ionising radiation and that is obviously not a good thing/?
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Ah, that is remarkable incorrect. It is true that exogenous cause of mutation in DNA can be caused by ionizing radiation and chemicals, however endogenous cause are much more common. Whenever a cell divides the DNA within the nucleus of the cell is translated and transcribed (copied) to create new daughter strands which are identical to the parent. This process is ensures that normal somatic cells are created and no mutations occur (this process is different in sex cells but thats a different story). However this process is not always perfect and sometimes the wrong nucleotides (building blocks of DNA) are copied or missed or etc, creating a new DNA code which may affect the function of the DNA. Fortunately the body has plenty of proof reading processes to ensure these mutations are corrected, but mutations still occur. These sort of point mutations are much more common than exposure to ionizing radiation.

Anyway Darwins theory of natural selection was created decades before Watson and Crick discovered DNA, but it is still fairly relevant. This theory simple states that the animals that can best adapt to a environmental condition will survive and pass on this trait to there progeny. For example Say you have some bugs and spray them with poison. 3/4 of the bugs might die, yet the remianing 1/4 might have a random genetic mutation which allows them to survive. They pass this trait on to there children and thus over several generation this bug species becomes immune to the poison because only the bugs with the mutated trait have survived to breed. (I hope that makes sense, not the best example.)

To the question at hand, I really think intelligent does not prove much of anything, let alone the existence of god. Yes the odds of earth being created were astronomically slim, but in an infinite universe anything is possible, it does not necessarily have to be the work of some supreme being.

Also at the risk of sounding arrogant, I really think this debate is fairly pointless. It seems to me that most people have made up there mind already, with very little evidence and some outlandish statements (seriously there are some very suspect scientific statements being thrown around). I would encourage people to stick to the facts and not just chuck in opinions and half baked ideas. I am a microbiologist/med scientist so those areas are where most of my knowledge lies, I don't presume to know anything about theology or physics and thus I am not going to comment on anything people say on these subjects. If there is something you don't understand about about a subject, look it up, don't just guess and try and sound smart!! Just putting that out there, not try to offend.
 
kashmaster said:
lol, I am sorry for being incorrect you are a scientist and I am a 15 year old
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Ah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being incorrect. As long as you learn something! That's pretty much the foundation of science!
 
The Dief said:
kashmaster said:
lol, I am sorry for being incorrect you are a scientist and I am a 15 year old
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Ah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being incorrect. As long as you learn something! That's pretty much the foundation of science!
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True, i'm 15 (since Sunday, yay ^^) but i know a lot too of science, just being interested in science is enough, and you'll learn automatically. Just question everything ;)
 
The Dief said:
Also at the risk of sounding arrogant, I really think this debate is fairly pointless. It seems to me that most people have made up there mind already, with very little evidence and some outlandish statements (seriously there are some very suspect scientific statements being thrown around). I would encourage people to stick to the facts and not just chuck in opinions and half baked ideas. I am a microbiologist/med scientist so those areas are where most of my knowledge lies, I don't presume to know anything about theology or physics and thus I am not going to comment on anything people say on these subjects. If there is something you don't understand about about a subject, look it up, don't just guess and try and sound smart!! Just putting that out there, not try to offend.
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Well, all that and the fact that you can only get so far arguing against a 12-16something year old who thinks that they know everything. lol

A lot of these kids seem to have learned a little about the theory of evolution with out really understanding HOW it works, which is really to bad. I very much wish that they would not teach evolution in schools as a fact, since this is just silly. Yes, it's a fairly decent theory, but it could easily be wrong, like many other theories. What bothers me the most about evolution is how random it is, when everything else in the universe is so orderly. Also, I'm still waiting for a good explination of why WE, as in humans, are the only creatures on this earth who have supposedly evolved to the level we have? Why didn't some other animal at the very least come close to where we are? This is something else that causes me to have problems with the whole theory. Look at all the other animals in the world. Most of them are on about the same "level" with each other. Why is it that humans are so far advanced past everything else? And no, someone saying, "because we evolved faster" isn't a good argument.
 
A scientific theory is about the best you can get, the common use of the word "theory" refers to stuff like guesswork, "conspiracy theories" for example. A scientific theory means that it has been tried and tested, and has a humongous bunch of evidence supporting it. They might as well call it a fact. Especially the theory of natural selection, which has existed for over 150 years without any evidence contradicting it.

There's nothing random about evolution, it's a perfectly natural process, it has been going on for so very long now, and will probably continue doing so until life on Earth suddenly becomes impossible. The only thing "random" about evolution are the random mutations, and those are a fact, you can OBSERVE them, so you honestly can't go doubting that.

And let's compare, say, a chimp to a Cow. A Chimpanzee can be taught diverse difficult tasks, and can solve complex problems, just look at videos, I'd link you to some, but googling "chimp" and "smart" should give you enough. Cows stand around and no very little, and are unable to solve even some of the easiest problems. They also can't pick up objects, like chimps. If you think all animals are on the same level, you need to grow some eyes ._.
 
I think he means genrally as we could say that chimps, monkeys and dolphins seem to be in the same league give or take that the chimp is still smarter

But cows, sheeps, pigs, dogs and so on are roughly on the same level.
 
Well we aren't actually that much different than chimps (of course we are smarter) but chimps can be thought very much, and in nature these things aren't thought to chimps so they're considered as not very smart. But if you put a human baby into a chimp family he wouldn't get much smarter than the chimps surrounding him, just because nobody didn't thought our ways of being smart.

And there were other human like races in the past, like the Neanderthal. But they all didn't make it.

I always wondered what happened if squids would have gotten smarter...
 
Actually, that all does NOT explain how we became conscious, aware of having choices in situations and be able to take decisions. Thats 1 thing that hasn't been explained by anyone for as far as I know.
 
afstandopleren said:
Actually, that all does NOT explain how we became conscious, aware of having choices in situations and be able to take decisions. Thats 1 thing that hasn't been explained by anyone for as far as I know.
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That's hard for me to explain, even harder to explain in English (i'm Dutch ;P). So all i can say is that it's a thing you just have to understand. It just happened, if we didn't get smarter, other animals would have probably after a decent time... (nahh not really true... damn, i always have found it hard to write things down which are in my mind...)

Hope anyone else can answer this. The Dief, maybe you can?
 
Intelligence has nothing to do with being conscious IMHO. Sure, we have the insight to make tools and such, but animals have that too. But what clearly separates us from other animals is that we can make decisions. So how did this came to be? Why are we the only species with conscious minds?
 
Pokequaza, I THINK (based on usertitle and location) that afstandopleren is Dutch as well, so you might as well give it a shot. I'd also be glad to translate if needed. Let's not let language barriers get in the way of conversation :D

But anyhow, I'm pretty sure most animals with a brain are perfectly capable of making decisions as well, otherwise they just be standing there all day trying to figure out what to do. A cow at one point will have to decide to start eating grass or walk around, and chimps can solve some rather difficult problems. I've seen a lot of other animals do this stuff as well.
 
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