#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?

[Pokequaza]

If you say evolution doesn't have evidence, I know more than enough about you to say that you're uneducated about the subject.

If fossil records of pretty much every major step in evolution, ranked in the Earth layers precisely according to the predictions of evolution, every aspect of genetics supporting the theory, a logical, functional, real and OBSERVABLE process being the engine behind the theory, every logical prediction by the theory of evolution being true and not a single science even coming close to disproving evolution, and even supporting it is not evidence, then what is? What do you want? A sped-up film of a group of animals evolving over millions of years?
Evolution is probably one of the theories with the most evidence backing it up and one of the most examined and researched theories, claiming it's based on imagination means you're uneducated.

Well why can't I say it is based on imagination. Do you see evolution happening right infront of you? You decide to believe that it works from fossils. I say seeing is believing in science.

Also I think you know me well enough, you can't say I am uneducated in this area, I just decide not to believe it as it isn't the best of theories

I know you are passionate about this subject, but can you calm down a bit

That's not true what you're saying, it's like: Does gravity exist? I've never seen it. Isn't it just an imagination? Ever been to uh.. New Zealand? (no offense ) maybe it doesn't exist, maybe it's an imagination! Maybe the Roman Empire didn't exist 2000 years ago, maybe it's an imagination... If only the things which we've seen would be true we wouldn't know very much, sometimes you've to accept these things are scientifically proved and are true...

(not that my examples are based on scientific things ._.)

 

[afstandopleren]

But that's like Atlantis. XD It's like part of history (How can a myth survive so long and stay intact?), but we have no proof of it's existence except some written words.

 

[Ka$h Money]

If you say evolution doesn't have evidence, I know more than enough about you to say that you're uneducated about the subject.

If fossil records of pretty much every major step in evolution, ranked in the Earth layers precisely according to the predictions of evolution, every aspect of genetics supporting the theory, a logical, functional, real and OBSERVABLE process being the engine behind the theory, every logical prediction by the theory of evolution being true and not a single science even coming close to disproving evolution, and even supporting it is not evidence, then what is? What do you want? A sped-up film of a group of animals evolving over millions of years?
Evolution is probably one of the theories with the most evidence backing it up and one of the most examined and researched theories, claiming it's based on imagination means you're uneducated.

Well why can't I say it is based on imagination. Do you see evolution happening right infront of you? You decide to believe that it works from fossils. I say seeing is believing in science.

Also I think you know me well enough, you can't say I am uneducated in this area, I just decide not to believe it as it isn't the best of theories

I know you are passionate about this subject, but can you calm down a bit

That's not true what you're saying, it's like: Does gravity exist? I've never seen it. Isn't it just an imagination? Ever been to uh.. New Zealand? (no offense ) maybe it doesn't exist, maybe it's an imagination! Maybe the Roman Empire didn't exist 2000 years ago, maybe it's an imagination... If only the things which we've seen would be true we wouldn't know very much, sometimes you've to accept these things are scientifically proved and are true...

(not that my examples are based on scientific things ._.)

But gravity can be tested and it is a good enough theory as we can see something fall, whilst we can't observe evolution occuring. You don't know maybe in 2000 years time there maybe some new theory. See what I done there I predicted an outcome using my imagination

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

You can't see the interference of a deity occurring AT ALL, if you believe in observation, you should be an atheist, or at least agnostic.

But anyhow, we can observe evolution. I could try to find you some videos, but it would take a while.
Anyhow: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html go to 5.0

 

[Ka$h Money]

I said I observe for science if you re-read my post. Also I don't mind micro evolution, that can be seen, but the thing that troubles me is why we mutate, why we evolve, what makes us do it?

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

I think observed speciation in houseflies and fruitflies qualifies as macro-evolution, don't you?

There's also no such thing as "micro" and "macro" evolution, macro-evolution would just be described as a series of micro-evolutions. You can't expect something which keeps on changing to still look pretty much the same after millions of years.

 

[Ka$h Money]

Urm yes you could, I am scepticle in the process of evolution. I understand where you are coming from but can you help explain why we evolve, what is the reason (don't say due to the environment) I want to know what tells the being to evolve.

Thanks
P.S I don't think I saw something regarding this on your playlist

 

[Pokequaza]

I believe (Heavenly Spoon correct me if i'm wrong): Every time a creature gives birth the youngs of it are a little bit different then their parents, the ones with the good changes will survive and pass this ''good mutation'' to their youngs which are again a little bit different from their parents... etc... I believe that's the way it goes...

 

[GODZILLA]

If Intelligent Design is not a viable argument for the existence of God, then what are the alternative arguments?

 

[Ka$h Money]

Evolution duh!

@ pokequaza, are you saying that you may be better equiped to the environment compared to your father and mother?

 

[afstandopleren]

actually, yes (I guess PKQ). However, with humans, evolution is rather 'invisible'.

 

[GODZILLA]

Evolution duh!

@ pokequaza, are you saying that you may be better equiped to the environment compared to your father and mother?

So Evolution is an alternate theory that attempts to affirm the existence of God?

Perhaps I was unclear. What I'm asking is, if Intelligent Design is not a viable theory, are there any other theories for the existence of God?

 

[Pokequaza]

Evolution duh!

@ pokequaza, are you saying that you may be better equiped to the environment compared to your father and mother?

Yes

actually, yes (I guess PKQ). However, with humans, evolution is rather 'invisible'.

With all animals it's 'invisible', it goes very slowly. But humans are still evolving, our toes are dissappearing :O

So Evolution is an alternate theory that attempts to affirm the existence of God?

Perhaps I was unclear. What I'm asking is, if Intelligent Design is not a viable theory, are there any other theories for the existence of God?

Good question, I would like to see if someone can answer this

 

[Noobnerd]

kashmaster, you seem to think that the people here are using evolution to prove whether God exists or not.

That's way out of point. (not off topic, so I'm not mini-modding)

Zilla, there are no other theories as far as I know. Religion is just faith + some values. IMO, it's pretty much down to believing which set of miracles and Gods you want to believe, or whether you don't want to.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

P.S I don't think I saw something regarding this on your playlist

I think •5 and 6, I'd have to check, of the made easy series talks about it. I could give you an infite amount of other info, but I think you just refuse to get it or something, if you've watched those...

are you saying that you may be better equiped to the environment compared to your father and mother?

Nope. Not every generation is better than the next. Some are better adapted, some are worse. Those who are better adapted will obviously survive better, live longer, maybe even be more attractive to others (sexual selection), and therefore make more babies. DNA gets passed on (although mutations arise), so the gene which makes the animal better adapted also gets passed on, and the babies should also get this gene (not always, though, dominance plays a role, as well as the fact that only half of each parent's DNA get passed on, but if you're lucky). Sure, you might not notice a direct change, but over millions of years, obviously significant changes will arise, as you can't expect something which changes a little every generation to still look like its ancestors millions of years ago.

Natural selection is also VERY observable. The Earth is heating up, especially noticeable on the North pole, which is just one big bunch of floating ice. Therefore, the polar bears, which are not adapted to the new environment, decrease in numbers. I could give you a million and one more examples if you wish, though.

kashmaster, you seem to think that the people here are using evolution to prove whether God exists or not.

Evolution, as well as many other scientific theories and discoveries (Abiogenisis, Big Bang, gravitation, and so on), make a deity more and more obsolete, you don't need something like that to explain pretty much everything anymore, not that answering unanswerable questions using a deity was every valid or justified.

 

[Ka$h Money]

@ Noobnerd, Did I say that prove God's existence if evolution is wrong? You could find a million reasons why there is a God and a million why there isn't

@ Heavenly Spoon, I did say 'may', It looks like in western countries that people are trying to avoid having children as it is a 'burden'.

So a dominant gene can also stop evolution?

Finally I never said I refuse to get it, I get it but don't believe, it is my opinion and nothing you say can change that

 

[Pokequaza]

@ Noobnerd, Did I say that prove God's existence if evolution is wrong? You could find a million reasons why there is a God and a million why there isn't

@ Heavenly Spoon, I did say 'may', It looks like in western countries that people are trying to avoid having children as it is a 'burden'.

So a dominant gene can also stop evolution?

Finally I never said I refuse to get it, I get it but don't believe, it is my opinion and nothing you say can change that

Can you give me a few reasons why god does exist? Because i don't know one... And ''the bible says'' isn't a good reason...

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

^ Seconded.

Also, don't try to apply evolution to humans, we're far too numerous, far too intelligent and far too mobile for evolution to happen rationally within our species. The existence of stuff like condoms is only one of the reasons for this. Our Christian society also brings with it the tradition of marriage, 1 man and 1 woman, which means that there's less sexual selection. And natural selection also doesn't actually apply anymore because thanks to our health care even the weakest of humans are able to survive for a pretty long time (just think of Down syndrome).

 

[afstandopleren]

Humans are far from perfect. I honestly think humans are the most flawed species as we have started to depend on our own inventions like electricity, law and some other things. Why can't God just snap a finger and make us the perfect beings that we think we ought to be? If he created us in his image, then sure God must be incredibly imperfect as well. =O

 

[Forum Shark]

Humans are far from perfect. I honestly think humans are the most flawed species as we have started to depend on our own inventions like electricity, law and some other things. Why can't God just snap a finger and make us the perfect beings that we think we ought to be? If he created us in his image, then sure God must be incredibly imperfect as well. =O

No, we are created in God's image, but you must not take this literally. It means we have the ablility to love and have sympathy. Among other things. Also, if God did that, then Jesus' dying on the cross would be pointless! God gave us free wil.