Discussion Broken Cards...

[Dennis]

Why are there broken cards.
Forest of Giant PlantS
Lysandre Trump Card..
and the most recent.....wait for it...

BRIGETTE...seems like they needed to ban that card when GX's came out. Our league alone is clamoring for a Brigette. Why would putting ,say , 3 Drampas, or 3 Tauros , be ok. Bidding has gone for at least 7 to 8 dollars in our section of players.

Discuss.....and feedback.....and dealings ....GO.

 

[Draskk]

Trevenant should have been banned. I've been playing it recently and its so good now-it has Lele to search for Wally, it has Necrozma, it has Acerola, and ridiculous amounts of denial. Even with people playing to counter it it's still ridiculously good because it's counters don't really counter it very well. The most prominent one is Dark which gets owned by item lock. They only counterish thing about it is that it hits for Weakness. We also have the Tapu Lele non GX promo coming out which puts Trev in an EVEN BETTER place. At this point the card needs to be rotated or banned.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

They might have an errata for Brigette so it only gets one Basic GX or EX.

I agree Trevenant is pretty good, but not hard to beat. Its always had Jirachi to search Wally, and AZ and stuff. It still loses pretty badly to darkness though even with the lock.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Kiawe should be banned too if we're talking about broken cards.

 

[PMJ]

Kiawe should be banned too if we're talking about broken cards.

Remember when I said that all you do is whine instead of helping people? This would be a great opportunity to make your case so you can show the class that you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Blakers]

Kiawe should be banned too if we're talking about broken cards.

I would also like to see a case on why you think Kiawe is a broken card.

 

[Jacktropolis]

Zoroark Break is kinda broken, stealing big GXs attacks for a single energy is absurd. Stealing Bulus natures judgement, Drampas berserk, Turtonators bright flame(don't have to discard energy either) etc.. I personally love zoroark so I'm gonna keep using the break(preferably with Golisopod GX) but I can't lie in some matchups he's just unfair

 

[Jacktropolis]

Kiawe should be banned too if we're talking about broken cards.

How is Kiawe broken? It's your supporter for the turn and ends your turn

 

[AuraJackle]

Trev is a definite In that it's to oppressive to be healthy. Its really the only thing that is completely unhealthy tho battle compressor is a close second. Standard is pretty good as far as broken cards go briggete is healthy in that it makes evo decks more viable it's not like your getting 3 tapu bulus often usually just 1 or 2 and it's your supporter you need on your first turn to be good

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Remember when I said that all you do is whine instead of helping people? This would be a great opportunity to make your case so you can show the class that you have no clue what you're talking about.

I really do question your position as staff with how you talk to other people. I wouldn't have you on staff with how aggressive you are to people but since you yourself stated that you're a bad player in this game, I'll do my best to explain this to you as a game designer.

This game give a HUGE advantage to the player going first. They get the first Supporter, the first attachment for Energy, the first player who can evolve their Pokemon - Everything but attack on the first turn. Kiawe gives the player going first a five Energy turn, or up to five anyway. Sure you have to end your turn afterwards but this doesn't matter because you, as the player going first can't attack. This comes with no consequence to the player going first. Giving the player going first a that can put four energy on the board, with many good attackers to support with is too much advantage to the point the player going second can't respond with since this puts them down two Prizes cards before they can even do anything meaningful. This places too much pressure on the player going second who can't respond to it.

As a game designer, these kind of things need to be avoided because it gives too much advantage. MtG would never make a card like this. Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards would never make a card like this and for good reason. If you happen to go second against a deck using Kiawe and they manage to get four Energy on a Ho-Oh-GX, you have a unrealistically high chance of losing the best of two because you lost the coin flip. This is the reason they banned Forest of Giant Plants from Expanded, because it gives too much advantage to the player going first and with lock decks being everywhere, the ban was needed. It's why they banned Archeops, because it gives too much advantage to the player running it.

The game already demands too much of the player going second and giving the player going first a cards that can powerful a four Energy attackers breaks any kind of balance they could make with the type.

 

[Jacktropolis]

I really do question your position as staff with how you talk to other people. I wouldn't have you on staff with how aggressive you are to people but since you yourself stated that you're a bad player in this game, I'll do my best to explain this to you as a game designer.

This game give a HUGE advantage to the player going first. They get the first Supporter, the first attachment for Energy, the first player who can evolve their Pokemon - Everything but attack on the first turn. Kiawe gives the player going first a five Energy turn, or up to five anyway. Sure you have to end your turn afterwards but this doesn't matter because you, as the player going first can't attack. This comes with no consequence to the player going first. Giving the player going first a that can put four energy on the board, with many good attackers to support with is too much advantage to the point the player going second can't respond with since this puts them down two Prizes cards before they can even do anything meaningful. This places too much pressure on the player going second who can't respond to it.

As a game designer, these kind of things need to be avoided because it gives too much advantage. MtG would never make a card like this. Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards would never make a card like this and for good reason. If you happen to go second against a deck using Kiawe and they manage to get four Energy on a Ho-Oh-GX, you have a unrealistically high chance of losing the best of two because you lost the coin flip. This is the reason they banned Forest of Giant Plants from Expanded, because it gives too much advantage to the player going first and with lock decks being everywhere, the ban was needed. It's why they banned Archeops, because it gives too much advantage to the player running it.

The game already demands too much of the player going second and giving the player going first a cards that can powerful a four Energy attackers breaks any kind of balance they could make with the type.

I disagree Kiawe is broken.....it's really good lol but only turn 1, I do agree that the staff member who replied to you was completely out of line and just mean to be honest don't worry about him though. You did give a solid explanation as to why Kiawe could be considered broken

 

[GrandPanacea]

MtG would never make a card like this.

Primeval Titan says Hi. Black Lotus says Hi. Both of those are LEAGUES better than Kiawe. The entire Power Nine are better. And you said "Would never", so you can't go back and say "Would never again." Please research your statements first. Kiawe really isn't broken. Granted, he's great in the right deck, but he's only helping the already good Volcanion.

I really do question your position as staff with how you talk to other people. I wouldn't have you on staff with how aggressive you are to people

This is not your place to question, nor is this an appropriate place to do so. If you have an issue with him, take it up with a Super Mod. This is coming from a mod of this forum. Doesn't matter if you think he's aggressive or not, this is about cards, not about questioning the motives of our staff.

but since you yourself stated that you're a bad player in this game, I'll do my best to explain this to you as a game designer.

This is just plain condescending and rude. Please refrain from further comments like that. I'm aware that what PMJ said could be considered rude in their own right, but he is trying to make a point, and is asking for your rationale. This is, as stated, condescending and quite rude.

 

[Xeynid]

Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards would never make a card like this

Soul Charge.

Basically everything involving "Draco" in its name.

zoodiac.

Try coming up with some real arguments.

Kiawe is a really fun, powerful card that leads to cool moments where you can instantly get set up. It's also not so strong as to overcentralize the metagame. Therefore, it's a wonderful card.

 

[PMJ]

Dragging me out of bed for this smh

I really do question your position as staff with how you talk to other people.

I treat everyone fairly. No one gains my ire without having done something to deserve it, and you, my friend, seem to do it on the regular. That doesn't mean I am hostile towards everyone, or even anyone besides you. I asked you to explain yourself so everyone could see how wrong you were, and you did exactly that! Let me rebut your points one by one.

This game give a HUGE advantage to the player going first. They get the first Supporter, the first attachment for Energy, the first player who can evolve their Pokemon - Everything but attack on the first turn. Kiawe gives the player going first a five Energy turn, or up to five anyway. Sure you have to end your turn afterwards but this doesn't matter because you, as the player going first can't attack. This comes with no consequence to the player going first. Giving the player going first a that can put four energy on the board, with many good attackers to support with is too much advantage to the point the player going second can't respond with since this puts them down two Prizes cards before they can even do anything meaningful. This places too much pressure on the player going second who can't respond to it.

Oh no, please don't do 180 damage to my Alolan Vulpix!

Using Kiawe as your first Supporter means you get no setup for the turn. If your hand is naturally strong enough that you can afford to Lele for Kiawe, then all the better, but in almost every deck the optimal turn one Supporter is Brigette. The reality is that sometimes you are better off advancing your board state than trying to go for the Kiawe blitzkrieg.

As a game designer, these kind of things need to be avoided because it gives too much advantage. MtG would never make a card like this. Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards would never make a card like this and for good reason.

I can't speak to the truth of this because I have never played either of these games but @GrandPanacea seems to know what he's talking about I guess?

If you happen to go second against a deck using Kiawe and they manage to get four Energy on a Ho-Oh-GX, you have a unrealistically high chance of losing the best of two because you lost the coin flip.

Do you have any evidence of this, or did you just assume it's "unrealistically high" because you've been on the receiving end one too many times? Did you forget that not every game plays out the same way every time?

This is the reason they banned Forest of Giant Plants from Expanded, because it gives too much advantage to the player going first and with lock decks being everywhere, the ban was needed.

That's why the ban reason specifically stated that "no single strategy was powerful enough" right? That means that lock decks themselves weren't solely the problem - otherwise they would have just banned Vileplume instead of gutting the Grass archetype.

It's why they banned Archeops, because it gives too much advantage to the player running it.

This is wrong too. I explained this to you in the other thread. Archeops wasn't a big deal until now because the focus was on Basic Pokemon. Nobody gave a shit about evolved Pokemon because most of them were bad. The few that were viable all played a way to get around Ancient Power but now the meta has flipped. Now evolutions are the focus. Archeops is too strong in BW-BUS.

The game already demands too much of the player going second and giving the player going first a cards that can powerful a four Energy attackers breaks any kind of balance they could make with the type.

What, exactly, does the game demand of the player going second?

Also, you know you can just Kiawe on your first turn going second, right? Unless you're using Power Heater, you probably aren't attacking on your first turn anyway.

"But they can just Guzma me!" Yeah, well, that's not always going to happen. Sometimes they will prize Ho-Oh, or Kiawe, or they will realize that setting up their board is more important than putting all their eggs into one rainbow basket and just not opt for it.

Once Counter Catcher hits the scene, using Kiawe for quick KOs is going to be less appealing since you won't want to go up in prizes from turn two.

Anyway that's why everything you said was wrong. I'm going back to bed, I promise I'll return for you sometime soon <3

 

[PMJ]

(It's okay when a minority of decks need to run Wobbuffet, but not okay when most of them would)

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Primeval Titan says Hi. Black Lotus says Hi. Both of those are LEAGUES better than Kiawe. The entire Power Nine are better. And you said "Would never", so you can't go back and say "Would never again." Please research your statements first. Kiawe really isn't broken. Granted, he's great in the right deck, but he's only helping the already good Volcanion.

I'm aware of the Power Nine, but these where when the game was new and there wasn't anything to go by. Primeval Titan is six cost creature, which isn't free and isn't a good example of such. However, there doesn't exist (or had existed) a Sorcery card that cost zero mana that gives you four mana. Pokemon has been around for YEARS. Show me a current MtG card that does what Kiawe does for free?

This is not your place to question, nor is this an appropriate place to do so. If you have an issue with him, take it up with a Super Mod. This is coming from a mod of this forum. Doesn't matter if you think he's aggressive or not, this is about cards, not about questioning the motives of our staff.

He choose to publicly attack me so I choose to publicly respond. I do agree this is about the cards, but you could be telling him this as well since she choose to not make it about the cards.

This is just plain condescending and rude. Please refrain from further comments like that. I'm aware that what PMJ said could be considered rude in their own right, but he is trying to make a point, and is asking for your rationale. This is, as stated, condescending and quite rude.

I didn't say it, he did.

Soul Charge.

Basically everything involving "Draco" in its name.

zoodiac.

Try coming up with some real arguments.

Kiawe is a really fun, powerful card that leads to cool moments where you can instantly get set up. It's also not so strong as to overcentralize the metagame. Therefore, it's a wonderful card.

Dark Hole? Yu-Gi-Oh is more adapted as a game to handle such effects. I was thinking more along the lines of a free version of Soul Charge but that is a example, so I'll take it.

 

[Jacktropolis]

Yo that PMJ guy is a total jerk why is he a staff member.....I just made a account and that's a terrible look this is an internet website about a childrens card game lol someone calm that dude down

 

[Xeynid]

Dark Hole? Yu-Gi-Oh is more adapted as a game to handle such effects. I was thinking more along the lines of a free version of Soul Charge but that is a example, so I'll take it.

Yeah, that dark hole is really gonna help when soul charge lets the mermail player discard 3 cards out of your hand before you've had a chance to play, or when they just negate your dark hole, or they have a dracossack and don't care.

Lol @ the concept of ever considering Kiawe to be more broken than the shit konami puts out.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Dragging me out of bed for this smh

I'd rather be doing anything but as well.

I treat everyone fairly. No one gains my ire without having done something to deserve it, and you, my friend, seem to do it on the regular. That doesn't mean I am hostile towards everyone, or even anyone besides you. I asked you to explain yourself so everyone could see how wrong you were, and you did exactly that! Let me rebut your points one by one.

I've seen you respond hostilely to others or in a way I'd expect a mod to not act since you are more obligated to be professional than any other member here. You could have just asked me to explain myself, which I would have happily done but you not once, but twice preceded to attack me, which I don't play from anyone.

Oh no, please don't do 180 damage to my Alolan Vulpix!

I'd just Guzma up that Tapu Lele-GX and go up two Prize cards.

Using Kiawe as your first Supporter means you get no setup for the turn. If your hand is naturally strong enough that you can afford to Lele for Kiawe, then all the better, but in almost every deck the optimal turn one Supporter is Brigette. The reality is that sometimes you are better off advancing your board state than trying to go for the Kiawe blitzkrieg.

You can still setup. The problem is it gives too much advantage to the player going first since attack is the best thing you can do in this game.

I can't speak to the truth of this because I have never played either of these games but @GrandPanacea seems to know what he's talking about I guess?

Yu-Gi-Oh is better suited for such cards because of the amount of removal that exist. A card like Soul Charge, which I admit is a decent example of such is bad because of things like Dark Hole, Mirror Force, Raigiki and other mass removal cards, which Pokemon doesn't have. The best example of a counter I can think of is Tapu Fini-GX, which can just bounce it.

Do you have any evidence of this, or did you just assume it's "unrealistically high" because you've been on the receiving end one too many times? Did you forget that not every game plays out the same way every time?

I've seen it happen many times. Before you're able to do anything, you're down one or two Prize cards since in most cases, at least two turns is needed to do anything meaningful and with things like Guzma, it gives too much advantage. Sure, not every game plays out the same way but it happens often enough to become reliable. The goal is to prevent such things from existing.


That's why the ban reason specifically stated that "no single strategy was powerful enough" right? That means that lock decks themselves weren't solely the problem - otherwise they would have just banned Vileplume instead of gutting the Grass archetype.

Banning FoGP means they can do interesting with the type and not risk breaking Expanded. Vileplume was broken because of FoGP. I would argue banning Trev for the same reason and that is it gives the player going first too much advantage.

This is wrong too. I explained this to you in the other thread. Archeops wasn't a big deal until now because the focus was on Basic Pokemon. Nobody gave a shit about evolved Pokemon because most of them were bad. The few that were viable all played a way to get around Ancient Power but now the meta has flipped. Now evolutions are the focus. Archeops is too strong in BW-BUS.

Any my response will be the same. The card was always broken but got a pass because evolution as a mechanic wasn't used widely and now that it is, they have to at least act like they want it to be relevant so banning Archeops was needed. I would have much rather seen Archie's and Maxie's banned instead but it's whatever.

What, exactly, does the game demand of the player going second?

That you're able to deal with a 190 HP Pokemon that has four Energy and can deal 180+ damage during your first turn of play.

Also, you know you can just Kiawe on your first turn going second, right? Unless you're using Power Heater, you probably aren't attacking on your first turn anyway.

I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean the player going second can play it or the deck running it can do it second?

"But they can just Guzma me!" Yeah, well, that's not always going to happen. Sometimes they will prize Ho-Oh, or Kiawe, or they will realize that setting up their board is more important than putting all their eggs into one rainbow basket and just not opt for it.

I've never seen this happen. Can it happen, sure. I've seen my friend prize four Gardevoir-GX.

Once Counter Catcher hits the scene, using Kiawe for quick KOs is going to be less appealing since you won't want to go up in prizes from turn two.

I mean, if I get a turn one Kiawe and can take a two Prize cards my next turn, then what do I care? I still have a 190 HP beat stick that can take another two Prize cards.

Anyway that's why everything you said was wrong. I'm going back to bed, I promise I'll return for you sometime soon <3

I didn't say anything wrong. As a matter of fact, you really didn't say anything meaningful against my argument.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Yeah, that dark hole is really gonna help when soul charge lets the mermail player discard 3 cards out of your hand before you've had a chance to play, or when they just negate your dark hole, or they have a dracossack and don't care.

Lol @ the concept of ever considering Kiawe to be more broken than the shit konami puts out.

I never said it was more broken than the cards Konami makes. I just said not ever Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards, would make such a card. Mostly because they can't.