Celebi23's Circle: Cities - What's the Play?
- Thread starter Water Pokémon Master
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Out of curiosity, where did I say anything about Fliptini and Crushing Hammer? I knew that before you mentioned it, and the article was read/proofread by numerous people before it went up (all of who I assume know that as well), so it seems unlikely such an oversight was made. Can you quote the exact text? I did mention Eelectrick, but I was more focused on other decks. I don't deny that that deck is pretty good, but I'd probably still be running ZPST since it's faster and much, much less vulnerable to Catcher.Tyraniking said:
The above first-half of paragraph applies to biggy, too. I see the quoted text there, but I never said Crushing Hammer works with Fliptini. I said it's a good card in the deck. Considering it's in the same overall topic as Mime Jr. and Cinccino, I thought that was pretty obvious, but I guess not. For clarification, I know, and have always known, that Fliptini only works with attacks.
Glaceon- It still doesn't offer the guaranteed hand match that Judge/Copycat does. Remember that you're usually up on prizes with that deck (with the exception of Zekrom), so you often have no choice but to Magnetic Draw after the N if you want to attempt the hand match. I suppose it's not a horrible inclusion, and will probably find its way in to some lists, but it adds an extra element of luck to the deck that I dislike.
Hey, what about zekrom? You didnt include it, so, how will that turn out?
He did
"Zekrom
This deck stole one Regionals, and got two second places. Eviolite makes it much stronger. It doesn't particularly struggle against Durant or Kyurem, and because of how quickly it sets up, can hold its own against "Victini lock." Really, not a lot changes here.
Expected Change: Tier 1 >> Tier 1
"
"Zekrom
This deck stole one Regionals, and got two second places. Eviolite makes it much stronger. It doesn't particularly struggle against Durant or Kyurem, and because of how quickly it sets up, can hold its own against "Victini lock." Really, not a lot changes here.
Expected Change: Tier 1 >> Tier 1
"
oh hehe I must've missed that, thanks
kennan, are you from oregon or washington?
just curious is all. im looking to expand my playtesting. havent been able to playtest in a while.
Celebi23 said:
I wouldn't Magnetic Draw if you need to match a 1-2 card hand. Communication and Junk Arm would be used then. If you're using Yanmega to attack that turn, you don't need to be fully setup. It also is good to mention that the deck is completely unaffected by opponent's N (at least in the fact that you can draw yourself after a bad hand).
Edit: Whoops, didn't even see glaceon's reply to this as well lol. He already covered this. :F
To Celebi's reply to him, Magnetic Draw is by far not your only option. The deck runs on a lot of outs. Luck has really nothing to do with it. It gives Magnezone an unbelievable turn of offense that it can take advantage of fully. It's an amazing addition IMO.
dmaster out.
"Glaceon- It still doesn't offer the guaranteed hand match that Judge/Copycat does. Remember that you're usually up on prizes with that deck (with the exception of Zekrom), so you often have no choice but to Magnetic Draw after the N if you want to attempt the hand match. I suppose it's not a horrible inclusion, and will probably find its way in to some lists, but it adds an extra element of luck to the deck that I dislike."
And to respond to this:
It is absolutely devastating to have a one card hand late game. If you want to not Magnetic Draw... don't? If you are up on prizes, than a Magnetic Draw to gain cards while matching hand size is good.
And to respond to this:
It is absolutely devastating to have a one card hand late game. If you want to not Magnetic Draw... don't? If you are up on prizes, than a Magnetic Draw to gain cards while matching hand size is good.
The deck runs a lot of outs, but if you N your hand in to two cards and don't Magnetic Draw for more, your chance of having one of those outs drops dramatically.dmaster said:
Again, N is not necessarily a bad inclusion in the deck, and I suppose might be a good play over Oak's. However, I tend to steer clear of Oak in most of my decks (it's slow and luck-based), so I would have to drop a much more consistent card like Sage or Juniper to make room for it in my list. Some people might play it, and it's alright-ish. It just doesn't fly with me/my playstyle.
I steer clear of Copycat even more than I do Oak's lol. Some decks can run 1-2 Oak's and it's a good addition. Copycat sucks in pretty much everything, except as maybe a 1-of in Stage 1's or MegaJudge. I put it in the trainer lock list just to make it a little more interesting, and because that many shuffle-draw cards weren't necessary anyway.
Judge is also horribly inconsistent and luck-based, but the disruption aspect makes up for a lot of that. However, it's completely outdone by N in everything not Yanmega at this point.
Honestly, the whole shuffle-draw nature of this format is incredibly luck-based. However, Juniper lets you control what you're drawing a little more than Oak's, and gives you one more card than Oak's. Sage and Cheren let you keep your original hand, so it's less luck-based since you know some of the cards you'll end up with. They're somewhat like Uxie, Claydol, Ninetales, and Magnezone, all of which are/were amazing for draw power.
I hate whole idea of just blindly shuffling your hand in, and hoping to draw a few good cards. Juniper is the only card like that that's given me consistent results in testing. Oak is somewhat less reckless, so it certainly has its place in the format as well. Not to say I like the card, however.
N and Judge are nice because you do the same to your opponent, but you're in control of when that happens. They're still not very consistent, though.
Judge is also horribly inconsistent and luck-based, but the disruption aspect makes up for a lot of that. However, it's completely outdone by N in everything not Yanmega at this point.
Honestly, the whole shuffle-draw nature of this format is incredibly luck-based. However, Juniper lets you control what you're drawing a little more than Oak's, and gives you one more card than Oak's. Sage and Cheren let you keep your original hand, so it's less luck-based since you know some of the cards you'll end up with. They're somewhat like Uxie, Claydol, Ninetales, and Magnezone, all of which are/were amazing for draw power.
I hate whole idea of just blindly shuffling your hand in, and hoping to draw a few good cards. Juniper is the only card like that that's given me consistent results in testing. Oak is somewhat less reckless, so it certainly has its place in the format as well. Not to say I like the card, however.
N and Judge are nice because you do the same to your opponent, but you're in control of when that happens. They're still not very consistent, though.
Just like to make a few comments here.
1) Durant is a troll card, nothing more. This notion that Durant will see actual, reasonable competitive play is almost ridiculous. It has 0 attacking options. If you prize a Durant, you're in for a struggle. Sure, they say you cant tech in Alph Lithograph and Rotom to deal with that. Sure. But then you've gotta sack some consistency with those, because you cant guarantee you'll always get the Alph. So let's say you don't, and if you prize a Durant, you're already down a chunk of turns. If you managed to get 4 Durant out 1st turn, and can consistently have 4 out the entire game, it will take you 12 turns to discard their deck, provided they do nothing every turn(Deck starts at 60, draw 7 for opening hand= 53. Set aside 6 prizes = 47. 47/4=~12.). I am fairly certain that every deck that is built to take prizes can take 6 prizes in 12 turns against a deck that has an average HP of 100(Sp.Metal+Eviolite). The deck doesn't deserve any hype. I have it built, but strictly as a league-only deck. It's obnoxiously fun to play and see how you hurt your opponent with the mills, but you cant honestly play it in a tournament and expect to do good. Also, like Lostgar, it can get slow-played the hell out of.
2) Agreeing with Pooka on this, N is a great card in Megazone(He runs it in his list, if you're wondering). For all of the reasons already stated above, it helps so much. The notion that "if you don't match hand sizes that turn and you could be at a severe disadvantage" is a mute point. The same could be said for Copycat, especially when you Copycat a hand of 0-2 cards. It's bad that turn anyways, but if they have that small a hand and take a prize, they may be at a bad point anyways. And don't tell me that "you don't run Copycat in yours," or "it's really luck based so I run 1-2." The card is a staple in the deck, and works on all the same principles N might. What N does is give you the added disruption if you're behind, and then allow you to play what you've got to even. Playing a Judge when they have under 4 cards is always kind of a bad play, because it gives them more to work with. With N, you get more for less. They can get less if you're behind, and if you're winning, then you have Magnetic Draw to even up to them(get above, then play down). I'm not saying ditch Copycat/Judge, but I'm saying supplement them with additional disruption and hand size-evening.
3) PONT is the most consistent shuffle-draw supporter in this format. It's an even 6. Copycat is luck based in that it depends on how your opponent plays. Judge is luck based in that "while it disrupts", if you get an awful hand off your own Judge(which is fairly common anyways), you cant capitalize on that disruption at all. Juniper "controls what you draw", in that it just takes the top 7. So if your deck is clumped, then you get clumped cards. If you've got bad draws for the next few turns, then you get all those bad draws at once. I'm not saying Juniper is bad, but honestly, PONT is the most consistent supporter in the format. It isn't run in all decks(some, like Magnezone, have internal draw. Others, like The Truth, usually have everything they need with Twins and Tropical Beach), but it is a viable, stable, consistent option. Adding in PONTs to a deck without them adds much more consistency. Don't kid yourself with this "luck based" stuff. If you want to get into luck based theory, then don't play Pokemon. The entire game is luck based. Skill is involved, yes, but there's a lot of luck(much more than there should be).
1) Durant is a troll card, nothing more. This notion that Durant will see actual, reasonable competitive play is almost ridiculous. It has 0 attacking options. If you prize a Durant, you're in for a struggle. Sure, they say you cant tech in Alph Lithograph and Rotom to deal with that. Sure. But then you've gotta sack some consistency with those, because you cant guarantee you'll always get the Alph. So let's say you don't, and if you prize a Durant, you're already down a chunk of turns. If you managed to get 4 Durant out 1st turn, and can consistently have 4 out the entire game, it will take you 12 turns to discard their deck, provided they do nothing every turn(Deck starts at 60, draw 7 for opening hand= 53. Set aside 6 prizes = 47. 47/4=~12.). I am fairly certain that every deck that is built to take prizes can take 6 prizes in 12 turns against a deck that has an average HP of 100(Sp.Metal+Eviolite). The deck doesn't deserve any hype. I have it built, but strictly as a league-only deck. It's obnoxiously fun to play and see how you hurt your opponent with the mills, but you cant honestly play it in a tournament and expect to do good. Also, like Lostgar, it can get slow-played the hell out of.
2) Agreeing with Pooka on this, N is a great card in Megazone(He runs it in his list, if you're wondering). For all of the reasons already stated above, it helps so much. The notion that "if you don't match hand sizes that turn and you could be at a severe disadvantage" is a mute point. The same could be said for Copycat, especially when you Copycat a hand of 0-2 cards. It's bad that turn anyways, but if they have that small a hand and take a prize, they may be at a bad point anyways. And don't tell me that "you don't run Copycat in yours," or "it's really luck based so I run 1-2." The card is a staple in the deck, and works on all the same principles N might. What N does is give you the added disruption if you're behind, and then allow you to play what you've got to even. Playing a Judge when they have under 4 cards is always kind of a bad play, because it gives them more to work with. With N, you get more for less. They can get less if you're behind, and if you're winning, then you have Magnetic Draw to even up to them(get above, then play down). I'm not saying ditch Copycat/Judge, but I'm saying supplement them with additional disruption and hand size-evening.
3) PONT is the most consistent shuffle-draw supporter in this format. It's an even 6. Copycat is luck based in that it depends on how your opponent plays. Judge is luck based in that "while it disrupts", if you get an awful hand off your own Judge(which is fairly common anyways), you cant capitalize on that disruption at all. Juniper "controls what you draw", in that it just takes the top 7. So if your deck is clumped, then you get clumped cards. If you've got bad draws for the next few turns, then you get all those bad draws at once. I'm not saying Juniper is bad, but honestly, PONT is the most consistent supporter in the format. It isn't run in all decks(some, like Magnezone, have internal draw. Others, like The Truth, usually have everything they need with Twins and Tropical Beach), but it is a viable, stable, consistent option. Adding in PONTs to a deck without them adds much more consistency. Don't kid yourself with this "luck based" stuff. If you want to get into luck based theory, then don't play Pokemon. The entire game is luck based. Skill is involved, yes, but there's a lot of luck(much more than there should be).
Uh... Alph Lithograph and Rotom don't make the deck that much less consistent, IMO. It's two cards, in a deck where you have already basically maxed out all other T/S/S, at 44 or so. And besides, Durant can definitely survive 12 turns. You can stall with cards like catcher or Bellsprout. And besides, they're going to get a very slow set up if you're discarding four of their cards per turn. This deck's only possible autoloss is maybe ReshiPhlosion, if it gets out a Typhlosion, because it's bound to have some energy discarded. Durant is most definitely not a troll. Until we see every Durant going 1-4 at tournaments, I'm a believer.
i think that cobalion is really good.
The main problem Cobalion suffers is being weak to fire in addition to a retreat cost. Another problem is opponent's can just retreat so they can attack. Dodrio may end up seeing more play than in the past, but I'm not certain. Thi will make retreats easier for the opponent to do.