Counter That Pokemon! - Round 20
- Thread starter Professor Palutena
- Start date
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
Yeah sorry I use Smogons damage calculator for 4th gen so Bullet Seeds base power is wrong. I'll fix it.
EDIT:40.8% - 48.3% ouchey
Yeah sorry I use Smogons damage calculator for 4th gen so Bullet Seeds base power is wrong. I'll fix it.
EDIT:40.8% - 48.3% ouchey
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
Some of these conditions are harsh. If we're assuming max Bullet seed rolls and max Sleep rolls, and that nothing is asleep, Stealth Rock that aids you isn't up, and we can't calculate what Breloom just swapped into, what do you want me to post as a counter, lol? Short of the Celebi set posted by Shadow Scyther, there isn't one. If we have to assume max Sleep rolls, even Skarmory doesn't work because it just got taken out of the entire match. If we have to assume max bullet seed rolls, everything short of Lum Berry Dragonite and Physically Defensive Celebi get OHKO'd-2HKO'd. And Lum Berry Dragonite will only work once. So unless there's some give, we're never going to find a "perfect" counter. We may as well just hand 2 points to shadow scyther and move on. Not even Poison Heal 252 HP/172 Def Impish Gliscor works under these conditions, and you all know it is the best Breloom counter out there, hands-down.
Anyways
[animate]130[/animate]
Gyarados @Leftovers
Impish Nature
Trait: Intimidate
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpDef
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
~Waterfall
~Roar/Dragon Tail
This is literally the only thing left that can switch in more than once (maybe), but since Stealth Rock is up and I haven't rapid spinned it away, and I have to assume Bullet Seed hits 5 times thanks to "normal" battle conditions, this doesn't work either. Anyways, this is actually a legit ResTalker in OU play. Lots of physical bulk plus intimidate makes this dude absorb pretty much any physical attack not named Thunderpunch or CB Tar Stone Edge. Waterfall is STAB, or Dragon Tail/Roar to phaze stuff up and rack up hazard damage from the hazards that normal battle conditions say I don't have in play yet.
bacon said:
PMJ said:
Some of these conditions are harsh. If we're assuming max Bullet seed rolls and max Sleep rolls, and that nothing is asleep, Stealth Rock that aids you isn't up, and we can't calculate what Breloom just swapped into, what do you want me to post as a counter, lol? Short of the Celebi set posted by Shadow Scyther, there isn't one. If we have to assume max Sleep rolls, even Skarmory doesn't work because it just got taken out of the entire match. If we have to assume max bullet seed rolls, everything short of Lum Berry Dragonite and Physically Defensive Celebi get OHKO'd-2HKO'd. And Lum Berry Dragonite will only work once. So unless there's some give, we're never going to find a "perfect" counter. We may as well just hand 2 points to shadow scyther and move on. Not even Poison Heal 252 HP/172 Def Impish Gliscor works under these conditions, and you all know it is the best Breloom counter out there, hands-down.
Anyways
[animate]130[/animate]
Gyarados @Leftovers
Impish Nature
Trait: Intimidate
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpDef
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
~Waterfall
~Roar/Dragon Tail
This is literally the only thing left that can switch in more than once (maybe), but since Stealth Rock is up and I haven't rapid spinned it away, and I have to assume Bullet Seed hits 5 times thanks to "normal" battle conditions, this doesn't work either. Anyways, this is actually a legit ResTalker in OU play. Lots of physical bulk plus intimidate makes this dude absorb pretty much any physical attack not named Thunderpunch or CB Tar Stone Edge. Waterfall is STAB, or Dragon Tail/Roar to phaze stuff up and rack up hazard damage from the hazards that normal battle conditions say I don't have in play yet.
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
And no one has mentioned Amoonguss.
I am dissapoint.
And no one has mentioned Amoonguss.
I am dissapoint.
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
Okayyyy that Gyarados definitely isn't doing the job. It cannot switch into Stone Edge or Bullet Seed and it cannot defeat Breloom in a threatening attack. I don't know if it even qualifies as a check. The only thing it does well is switching into mach punch, getting the intimidate, and then getting the hell out.
Gyarados Max HP: 394
SR damage: 98
Bullet Seed per hit: 49-58
Stone Edge: 176-208
This basically means it can only switch into Bullet Seed if it hits a combination of 2 or 3 on back to back turns. Gyarados cannot survive consecutive +3 Bullet Seeds which is more likely to happen then getting back to back turns of 2/2, 2/3, or 3/2. Stone Edge deals great damage as well. Easily a 2hko if SR is present. And Waterfall/Dragon Tail do not do much back to Breloom either.
Gyarados is not a counter.
Okayyyy that Gyarados definitely isn't doing the job. It cannot switch into Stone Edge or Bullet Seed and it cannot defeat Breloom in a threatening attack. I don't know if it even qualifies as a check. The only thing it does well is switching into mach punch, getting the intimidate, and then getting the hell out.
Gyarados Max HP: 394
SR damage: 98
Bullet Seed per hit: 49-58
Stone Edge: 176-208
This basically means it can only switch into Bullet Seed if it hits a combination of 2 or 3 on back to back turns. Gyarados cannot survive consecutive +3 Bullet Seeds which is more likely to happen then getting back to back turns of 2/2, 2/3, or 3/2. Stone Edge deals great damage as well. Easily a 2hko if SR is present. And Waterfall/Dragon Tail do not do much back to Breloom either.
Gyarados is not a counter.
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
-1 Stone Edge is a 2HKO after SR. You only have a 33% chance to phaze and a 66% chance to let Breloom have its way with you. Gyarados is not a great counter for the reason that it's unreliable. Phazing it isn't even a big deal since Dragon Tail only does 25% and Breloom resists SR.
grr pride beat me to it
We assume these situations because they have a chance of happening (even a three turn sleep is very likely to happen). If a Pokemon can only handle a threat around 66% of the time, should it be considered a counter? No, it is not. We're searching for reliable counters (yes their are some such as Skarmory).
-1 Stone Edge is a 2HKO after SR. You only have a 33% chance to phaze and a 66% chance to let Breloom have its way with you. Gyarados is not a great counter for the reason that it's unreliable. Phazing it isn't even a big deal since Dragon Tail only does 25% and Breloom resists SR.
grr pride beat me to it
We assume these situations because they have a chance of happening (even a three turn sleep is very likely to happen). If a Pokemon can only handle a threat around 66% of the time, should it be considered a counter? No, it is not. We're searching for reliable counters (yes their are some such as Skarmory).
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
It's like you ignored every part of my post except for the gyarados. Pride said Latias wasn't a reliable counter because it could be put to sleep on the switch, and then 2HKO'd if I hit it 5 times twice in a row. That's a bunch of crap lol. If you want to play that game then even Skarmory doesn't work because it will stay asleep for the rest of the game because we're assuming 5 turn sleep rolls and they can't roost anything off.
EDIT: I'm sorry if this comes off as flaming, to the extent of my knowledge, "normal battle conditions" means NORMAL. Not "let's stack the opponent's side of the field and hope for the best'
It's like you ignored every part of my post except for the gyarados. Pride said Latias wasn't a reliable counter because it could be put to sleep on the switch, and then 2HKO'd if I hit it 5 times twice in a row. That's a bunch of crap lol. If you want to play that game then even Skarmory doesn't work because it will stay asleep for the rest of the game because we're assuming 5 turn sleep rolls and they can't roost anything off.
EDIT: I'm sorry if this comes off as flaming, to the extent of my knowledge, "normal battle conditions" means NORMAL. Not "let's stack the opponent's side of the field and hope for the best'
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
If your counter is really a counter, it should a) be able to switch in with Stealth Rock up, b) deal with any weather and c) deal with any attack the opposing Pokemon has, including a 5-hit Bullet Seed (which is completely possible) or being put to sleep for three turns with Spore. We're not stacking anything.
If your counter is really a counter, it should a) be able to switch in with Stealth Rock up, b) deal with any weather and c) deal with any attack the opposing Pokemon has, including a 5-hit Bullet Seed (which is completely possible) or being put to sleep for three turns with Spore. We're not stacking anything.
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
I don't have a problem dealing with a 3 turn spore or one 5-hit bullet seed. Bacon said we have to assume a 5 turn spore, and pride said Latias is unreliable in case we hit 5 times TWICE in a row, AND get max calcs on both of them. And we also have to assume that Breloom isn't switching into Stealth Rock which might not be a big deal now, but what if we were countering a Volcarona? I can gurantee you I would have Stealth Rock up if I was facing against a Volcarona. You might not be stacking anything, but other players are.
I don't have a problem dealing with a 3 turn spore or one 5-hit bullet seed. Bacon said we have to assume a 5 turn spore, and pride said Latias is unreliable in case we hit 5 times TWICE in a row, AND get max calcs on both of them. And we also have to assume that Breloom isn't switching into Stealth Rock which might not be a big deal now, but what if we were countering a Volcarona? I can gurantee you I would have Stealth Rock up if I was facing against a Volcarona. You might not be stacking anything, but other players are.
RE: Counter That Pokemon!
Results time! Dun dun dun!
SS gets two points
After talking with Pride, we decided that Latias is a counter, so Chillarmy gets a point.
PMJ gets a point
bacon gets a point.
Round 2
[animate]639[/animate]
Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Jolly Nature
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 HP
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge
-X-Scissor
-Rock Slide
One of the most feared attackers from the BW meta is CS Terrakion. Having one of the best dual STABs in the game does that, I guess. Terrakion's movepool may be narrow, but who cares when you outspeed mostly everything and only about 4 things resist your STAB. Switching into Terrakion is incredibly tough given its sheer force even without the Choice Band, but there are a few brave souls who can muster the courage to face this beast.
Also, to avoid any loopholes, assume Terrakion has switched in and hasn't locked itself into an attack yet. Your current active Pokemon is neutral to all four attacks (even if such a thing doesn't exist).
Edit: Had to tweak the set a little bit, because otherwise Chillarmy's Nidoqueen would be the only counter.
Results time! Dun dun dun!
SS gets two points
After talking with Pride, we decided that Latias is a counter, so Chillarmy gets a point.
PMJ gets a point
bacon gets a point.
Round 2
[animate]639[/animate]
Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Jolly Nature
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 HP
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge
-X-Scissor
-Rock Slide
One of the most feared attackers from the BW meta is CS Terrakion. Having one of the best dual STABs in the game does that, I guess. Terrakion's movepool may be narrow, but who cares when you outspeed mostly everything and only about 4 things resist your STAB. Switching into Terrakion is incredibly tough given its sheer force even without the Choice Band, but there are a few brave souls who can muster the courage to face this beast.
Also, to avoid any loopholes, assume Terrakion has switched in and hasn't locked itself into an attack yet. Your current active Pokemon is neutral to all four attacks (even if such a thing doesn't exist).
Edit: Had to tweak the set a little bit, because otherwise Chillarmy's Nidoqueen would be the only counter.
RE: Counter That Pokemon! - Round 2
Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
Bold Nature
Sheer Force
- Earth Power
- Toxic Spikes
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
Fairly simple counter. Switch in on anything and Earth Power. Don't have time to do calcs, but without Earthquake Terrakion is going to have some trouble. Earthquake can be used if you don't like Sandstorm boosts.
Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
Bold Nature
Sheer Force
- Earth Power
- Toxic Spikes
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
Fairly simple counter. Switch in on anything and Earth Power. Don't have time to do calcs, but without Earthquake Terrakion is going to have some trouble. Earthquake can be used if you don't like Sandstorm boosts.
RE: Counter That Pokemon! - Round 2
Haha, no. The only counter to CB Terrakion is smart switching. Defensive behemoths like Gliscor and Skarmory have to watch out for the 2HKO after SR from Stone Edge and Close Combat respectively. Slowbro gets mauled by everything but Quick Attack and Close Combat. Claydol and Nidoqueen are not very viable in OU at the moment. Nidoking takes 50%+ from CC and the Scarf sets will never OHKO under Sandstorm, a common home for Terrakion. Golurk is at best a niche Pokemon and is too slow to keep up with other juggernauts. Even Max HP / Max Def Bold Amoonguss takes 50%+ from Stone Edge.
Counter: prediction and smart switching. Send something in like Gliscor, take 50% from Stone Edge, switch to you Rock-type resist. Send in Skarm, take 50% from CC, switch to your Fighting-type resist. This is why it's so deadly where if you predict wrong, something WILL die.
And yes, Nidoqueen and Claydol are niche Pokemon. I have yet to see one in BW OU and I'm doubtful they will ever be run in BW2.
Edit: Did you just change it to scarf or am I seeing things lol?
Haha, no. The only counter to CB Terrakion is smart switching. Defensive behemoths like Gliscor and Skarmory have to watch out for the 2HKO after SR from Stone Edge and Close Combat respectively. Slowbro gets mauled by everything but Quick Attack and Close Combat. Claydol and Nidoqueen are not very viable in OU at the moment. Nidoking takes 50%+ from CC and the Scarf sets will never OHKO under Sandstorm, a common home for Terrakion. Golurk is at best a niche Pokemon and is too slow to keep up with other juggernauts. Even Max HP / Max Def Bold Amoonguss takes 50%+ from Stone Edge.
Counter: prediction and smart switching. Send something in like Gliscor, take 50% from Stone Edge, switch to you Rock-type resist. Send in Skarm, take 50% from CC, switch to your Fighting-type resist. This is why it's so deadly where if you predict wrong, something WILL die.
And yes, Nidoqueen and Claydol are niche Pokemon. I have yet to see one in BW OU and I'm doubtful they will ever be run in BW2.
Edit: Did you just change it to scarf or am I seeing things lol?
RE: Counter That Pokemon! - Round 2
Yeah, you and Chillarmy are still getting points.
Yeah, you and Chillarmy are still getting points.
RE: Counter That Pokemon! - Round 2
Since my Impish Toxicroak is no good since we're switching to Scarf Terrakion, lets stick with it but a different set.
[animate]454[/animate]
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 244 HP/ 252 Atk / 12 Def
Ability: Dry Skin
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
Toxicroak HP: 368
Close Combat: 135-160
Stone Edge: 114-134
Stealth Rocks: 23
So it lives any of the combination of moves in consecutive attacks.
While its Drain Punch deals 254-302 (healing 137 - 151 after using) and ohko's after Close Combat. While without the Close Combat decrease it survives the ohko, it recovers more then enough HP back from Drain Punch to keep it safe from Stone Edge. X-Scissor and Rock Slide do not get mentioned because Toxicroak will use both moves as set up bait.
Since my Impish Toxicroak is no good since we're switching to Scarf Terrakion, lets stick with it but a different set.
[animate]454[/animate]
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 244 HP/ 252 Atk / 12 Def
Ability: Dry Skin
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
Toxicroak HP: 368
Close Combat: 135-160
Stone Edge: 114-134
Stealth Rocks: 23
So it lives any of the combination of moves in consecutive attacks.
While its Drain Punch deals 254-302 (healing 137 - 151 after using) and ohko's after Close Combat. While without the Close Combat decrease it survives the ohko, it recovers more then enough HP back from Drain Punch to keep it safe from Stone Edge. X-Scissor and Rock Slide do not get mentioned because Toxicroak will use both moves as set up bait.
RE: Counter That Pokemon! - Round 2
Skarmory
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def / 4 SDef
Ability: Sturdy
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Spikes
Standard Terrakion counter. Eat anything it can throw at you, Close Combat, its most effective move, is only a 3HKO with lefties at max. You can KO it with repeated Brave Birds or set up a bunch of Spikes and Whirlwind it out.
OH WAIT IT CAN FLINCH 5 TIMES IN A ROW WITH ROCK SLIDE FOR THE 6HKO. Back to the drawing board.
Skarmory
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def / 4 SDef
Ability: Sturdy
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Spikes
Standard Terrakion counter. Eat anything it can throw at you, Close Combat, its most effective move, is only a 3HKO with lefties at max. You can KO it with repeated Brave Birds or set up a bunch of Spikes and Whirlwind it out.
OH WAIT IT CAN FLINCH 5 TIMES IN A ROW WITH ROCK SLIDE FOR THE 6HKO. Back to the drawing board.
RE: Counter That Pokemon! - Round 2
Item: Iron Ball/Lagging Tail
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Moves:
- Will-o-Wisp
- Trick
- Recover
- Taunt
More times than not, Sableye can switch into a Terrakion and force the burn upon him, ultimately ruining any threat that he may have possessed to my team. After the burn, recover can be used to recover any damage inflicted and proceed to burn stall if it doesn't switch.
Some damage Calculations:
Stone Edge
First turn:
SR+Stone Edge: 63.16% - 72.7%
Second turn:
Burn+Stone Edge: + 25.66% - 30.59%
Total Damage: 88.82% - 103.29%
X-Scissor
First Turn:
SR + X-Scissor: 39.8% - 44.74%
Second Turn:
Burn+X-Scissor: + 13.82% - 16.45%
Total Damage: 53.62% - 61.19%
Close Combat
lol
Rock Slide
First Turn:
SR + Rock Slide: 50.99% - 57.89%
Second Turn:
Burn + Rock Slide: 19.08% - 23.03%
Total Damage: 70.07% - 80.92
So the only move that can OHKO Sableye is Stone Edge, but this has the smallest of chances to occur. I'd still say he is a pretty good counter
Item: Iron Ball/Lagging Tail
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Moves:
- Will-o-Wisp
- Trick
- Recover
- Taunt
More times than not, Sableye can switch into a Terrakion and force the burn upon him, ultimately ruining any threat that he may have possessed to my team. After the burn, recover can be used to recover any damage inflicted and proceed to burn stall if it doesn't switch.
Some damage Calculations:
Stone Edge
First turn:
SR+Stone Edge: 63.16% - 72.7%
Second turn:
Burn+Stone Edge: + 25.66% - 30.59%
Total Damage: 88.82% - 103.29%
X-Scissor
First Turn:
SR + X-Scissor: 39.8% - 44.74%
Second Turn:
Burn+X-Scissor: + 13.82% - 16.45%
Total Damage: 53.62% - 61.19%
Close Combat
lol
Rock Slide
First Turn:
SR + Rock Slide: 50.99% - 57.89%
Second Turn:
Burn + Rock Slide: 19.08% - 23.03%
Total Damage: 70.07% - 80.92
So the only move that can OHKO Sableye is Stone Edge, but this has the smallest of chances to occur. I'd still say he is a pretty good counter