^^ thank you. I run a 2 RR beedrills, cause while gengar is sitting happily trying to pick them off, thats 2 grass pokemon a turn, AKA a weedle and a beedrill. Then, I happen to have a claydol on the bench, and if i dont have any rare candies in my hand then i CP for it, and there is a good chance i get one. I have occasionally set up T1, but thats with good hands. I am usually at 60 damage T1, 120 T2 unless a bee is in my prizes
Deck Discussion #7: Speedrill
- Thread starter Blue Thunder
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Zyflair said:
you can tell me with a straight face your going to get out three beedrill in one turn under trainer lock and id call you liar.
its not going to happen. my argument said hes not goin gto get out 3 beedrill in one turn after a pitch dark lock. you may get them out the next turn but thats a whole turn were i get to evolve set up and prepare for the swarm.
i understand how beedrill works ive neve played it for more then 3 games but its not a difficult deck to figure out.
im not saying pitch dark totally shuts dwon beedrill but it gives you one turn to get your set up prepared for the beedrill swarm.
Seth1789110 said:
omfg.
ok so far you have bts 1-1 claydol 1-1-1 beedrill thats 6 cards plus 3 more from your draws and 2 turns of wings and 1 supporter.
your not getting 3 beedrill under pitch dark it odesnt happen unless you draw the nuts every time.
your manipulating the situation to try and prove your point and its just fact that pitch dark stalls your set up. please please just except this for the sake of my faith in this site.
Sigh...
One extra turn isn't much against a deck that swarms so easily.
Tsk tsk... is that really all you have?
No, but I get get out one and force you to remove the lock. Even better, I have a small chance of getting out TWO, donking you, and laugh in your face.trevorispro said:
If you've never played it, then you don't know how to build one. Use common sense... please.trevorispro said:
One extra turn isn't much against a deck that swarms so easily.
Tsk tsk... is that really all you have?
i dont feel like your getting the point of why im arguing.Zyflair said:
alls i want to say is your not getting set up under pitch dark and it gives you a turn to get out gengar(s).
youve already told me im right?
i do understand how to build beedrill its simple.
i posted my list in the deck garage a while back.
and even if you get out 2 donk me then i just take the loss and sign the match slip i tried it was my only option and stats show that shouldnt happen every game against beedrill.
so far youve said if i get out 2 i donk you
yes your right
you dont know how to build beedrill
extra turns dont matter against beedrill.
pretty feeble...your disappointing me.
Pitch Dark doesn't guarantee an extra turn. When are you going to realize that?
When did I ever admit you were right?
Your list is horrible: who in their right mind plays 4 Rare Candy and only 3 Roseanne's? Why is Quick Ball even used with 2 Beedrill RR?
Pf, so you admit you have about 5% chance of automatically losing.
What can you assume about me? I'm a player of donking and beatdown decks. I've played a Swarm deck (Kingdra) for a tourney and top cutted. I understand how to swarm with speed and consistency... and your deck doesn't reflect that.
Beyond that what can Gengar even do against Speedrill anyway beyond 60 damage?
When did I ever admit you were right?
Your list is horrible: who in their right mind plays 4 Rare Candy and only 3 Roseanne's? Why is Quick Ball even used with 2 Beedrill RR?
Pf, so you admit you have about 5% chance of automatically losing.
What can you assume about me? I'm a player of donking and beatdown decks. I've played a Swarm deck (Kingdra) for a tourney and top cutted. I understand how to swarm with speed and consistency... and your deck doesn't reflect that.
Beyond that what can Gengar even do against Speedrill anyway beyond 60 damage?
Zyflair said:
you said that youd only beable to max out at 2 beedrill and that outside of the donk pitch dark gives me an extra turn.
how doesnt pitch dark give me another turn?if you dont donk me i get e gangar and get my 60 on the board any damage you did to gastly doesnt matter because you 1 shot me.IT DOES GIVE ME AN EXTRA TURN.
and lol at why is quick ball used.so i dont have to be reliant on beating wings in case you noticed legos destroys this deck. although it doesnt destroy me because i play quickball i live for speed.
i dont need consistancy when everything i need is searchable just like sps. screw claydol in sp decks because of cyrus so screw consistency in beedrill because as long as i get out my beating wings and it isnt koed instntly i can maintain a swram.
and by saying you disappointed me i was clearly stating that i recognized you as someone who was goos at this game and would maybe just except that certain things like pitch dark are detrimental to the set up of a swarm deck. that you claim to be an expert in.
60s add up. you played kingdra like me you know. i 2 shot searcher bee and claydol. there goes your swarm adn consistency.burn your nms to recover a swarm that wont exsist in a few turns.
No quote, no proof I ever said such a thing.
Did I not make myself clear? If I donk you then there is no extra turn.
Besides, if you live for speed, you'd realize that 4 Rare Candy is overkill... oh wait, you never played the deck. -_-"
"someone who was goos, eh?" I'm not that guy.
Sure, no trainers hurt, but Kingra doesn't have Powers like Speedrill does to setup.
Kingdra did 60 AND 20 snipe. BIG DIFFERENCE. Besides, do you see Kingdra around much?
Two shot doesn't mean anything if NM + Claydol can say anything about it and when I OHKO you most of the time.
Did I not make myself clear? If I donk you then there is no extra turn.
Besides, if you live for speed, you'd realize that 4 Rare Candy is overkill... oh wait, you never played the deck. -_-"
"someone who was goos, eh?" I'm not that guy.
Sure, no trainers hurt, but Kingra doesn't have Powers like Speedrill does to setup.
Kingdra did 60 AND 20 snipe. BIG DIFFERENCE. Besides, do you see Kingdra around much?
Two shot doesn't mean anything if NM + Claydol can say anything about it and when I OHKO you most of the time.
Zyflair said:
my definition of legos is 4 mesprit you dont set up sweep with palkia.
i understand you snipe for 20 and it is a big difference.
but you didnt acknowledge that my 60 is a snipe so put my 60 on your dol or beating wings bee.
and i said that outside of the donk i get an extra turn. read please?
and dont say that your garunteed the donk becuas eyour not i dont care how consistent you claim your deck is if you can consistantly get out 2 bees under trainer lock you might just be the best player whoever lived. my point is YOU CANT!
do you get it?
if you dont donk i get an extra turn?right?your not donking every time.
or even most of the time.
and i never siad i was garunteed an extra turn.
no quote no proof.
Uh...trevorispro said:
Why is this here then? You've admitted that a donk is the end, and if I don't donk you, then you get the first shot. Is that something we can agree on?trevorispro said:
trevorispro said:
Zyflair said:
I never said it was guaranteed. If I did, then quote me.trevorispro said:
No, but I'm going to OHKO you most of the time T3 and beyond.trevorispro said:
trevorispro, your entire argument seems to be revolving around Pitch Dark. Lets put it this way. When running like 3/4 BTS, and lots of supporters and a Claydol and an Uxie, so what if I cant use trainers for 1 turn? I set up using the supporters and stadiums to my advantage, and 'dol and flutter wings as well. So now we have like 60 damage(at least), which OHKOs you. While you keep trying to stall me w/ pitch dark, your not evolving, so your staying at a low hp(of 60) the entire time. From what I know, Gengar variants USUALLY dont run memory berry, and while it is a possibility, you cant always count on it. So while you are trying to stop me from trainers, you are keeping yourself at low hp, and eventually, you have to let yourself evolve, and thats when you start dying...so Gengar will lose just as much as it will win to Speedrill. Speedrill is a great deck, and people who run that deck understand that it has enough power to take down lots of decks in the format. It can even win against legoes, or Palkia G, by tossing the claydol and uxie after your set up. If your not, you will lose, but thats another argument that you can try to fight. Give it a rest trevorispro, its a fight your not going to win. Beedrill can very easily beat Gengar, and so your argument is pretty void...
Zyflair said:
ok its uderstood that if you dont donk me i get an extra turn.
i also understand that beyond t3 your oing to be ohkoing me.
i wasnt saying that you said you were garunteeing the donk i just didnt want you to say that point because its obviosly false my fault for wording it bad.
im going to be targing your claydol to try and slow down your recovery and then try to attempt to take out some bees.
if beedrill gets a decent start i have no doubt it will outspeed and over power any deck. pitchdark helps against beedrillbut i turly believe hat beedrill has an advantage over gengar but i think that he match up is pretty close. no wear near an autoloss and if key cards become prized then gengar can get an early game advantage.
saying this im assuming you use azelf and super scoop up so i wont stay ahead for long.
i will admit that beedrill beats gengar but its definetly not an easy fight especially if its players with equal skill.
Seth1789110 said:
ok first off the whole bit about palkia g made me laugh you pitch away your consistancy to try and fight off my palkia g while your power locked for 4-5 turns. if we ever meet irl i will gladly play you with legos and 2-0 your beedrill.
second my argument was based around the fact that using pitch dark gives me an extra turn of set up assuming you dont donk me it can happen but its not likely off of 1 supporter.you wont be using claydol unless your extremely lucky and open it as 1-1 or draw into it.
your supporters are going to be used to attempt the donk.
beedrill does not easily beat gengar. stop saying it because it doesnt.
like i said earlier unless you open the nuts every game your not going to donk me or have an easy fight.you might beat people at your league all day with bees vs gengar but not everyones the best plyers now are they?
You're doing an amazing job of making your self look like the biggest n00b on the planet. I really hate arguing with people like you, because no matter what I say, you'll just brush it aside and counter it with some weak argument based on faulty logic.
I've tested extensively with Beedrill. I know that deck inside and out. No, I'm not just some random n00b who has never even used the deck. I was using one of the best beedrill lists in the world last year, and I've tested with some of the best lists this year. I do know what I'm talking about, so I would be grateful if you would be so kind as to stop giving me your crap and just listen for once.
1. Like it or not it's a FACT that more often than not you're not going to get your perfect start in a tourney. Not only will your own deck be giving you Baltoy/Unown G starts- tell me it doesn't and you're a liar- but in this format MANY of your opponents will be working against you to make your odds of getting set up even less.
2. Beedrill has a near atoloss to Legos. I'm one of the first people to use Legos, I'm one of the first people to really make the deck what it is today, heck, I'm the one who named it Legos... I do think I know what I'm talking about. It's near impossible for Beedrill to set up under power lock. On top of that, you'll be taking spread damage to the bench, and more often than not losing your active every turn or so to a KO. Even if you do ever set up, by then it's going to be far to late to do anything. Legos is probably the most consistent lock deck in the format, and it's also a rush deck that has good spread damage and heavy snipe ability. It does it's job of destroying its opponents set up better than any other disruption deck I have ever used. No matter what you do, the Legos player is almost always in control either by power lock, snipe, Lost Cyclone, or a combination of the three.
3. Beedrill does NOT have a good Gengar matchup. Really, any idiot can look at a Gasty, then look at a Beedrill and tell you that Pitch Dark is going to case MAJOR problems for the Beedrill player. Play down uxie, see if I care. It's a free, easy two prizes later on. Good luck getting a Claydol going while you're at it. Also, did you ever stop for a second and consider what NidoQueen DOES to your deck? That 2nd attack is BRUTAL to you. Sorry, but Gengar has the advantage here.
I've tested extensively with Beedrill. I know that deck inside and out. No, I'm not just some random n00b who has never even used the deck. I was using one of the best beedrill lists in the world last year, and I've tested with some of the best lists this year. I do know what I'm talking about, so I would be grateful if you would be so kind as to stop giving me your crap and just listen for once.
1. Like it or not it's a FACT that more often than not you're not going to get your perfect start in a tourney. Not only will your own deck be giving you Baltoy/Unown G starts- tell me it doesn't and you're a liar- but in this format MANY of your opponents will be working against you to make your odds of getting set up even less.
2. Beedrill has a near atoloss to Legos. I'm one of the first people to use Legos, I'm one of the first people to really make the deck what it is today, heck, I'm the one who named it Legos... I do think I know what I'm talking about. It's near impossible for Beedrill to set up under power lock. On top of that, you'll be taking spread damage to the bench, and more often than not losing your active every turn or so to a KO. Even if you do ever set up, by then it's going to be far to late to do anything. Legos is probably the most consistent lock deck in the format, and it's also a rush deck that has good spread damage and heavy snipe ability. It does it's job of destroying its opponents set up better than any other disruption deck I have ever used. No matter what you do, the Legos player is almost always in control either by power lock, snipe, Lost Cyclone, or a combination of the three.
3. Beedrill does NOT have a good Gengar matchup. Really, any idiot can look at a Gasty, then look at a Beedrill and tell you that Pitch Dark is going to case MAJOR problems for the Beedrill player. Play down uxie, see if I care. It's a free, easy two prizes later on. Good luck getting a Claydol going while you're at it. Also, did you ever stop for a second and consider what NidoQueen DOES to your deck? That 2nd attack is BRUTAL to you. Sorry, but Gengar has the advantage here.
I'll admit that I've never beat a Legoes deck with Beedrill. It's almost auto-loss. If you don't get the Mesperit lock right away, then you've got a pretty good chance at the Deafen lock. Then I won't have Claydol late-game due to Lost Cyclone. Plus you're killing my Weedles early and I probably won't be able to get enough Night Maintenance to get setup. Plus if you can hold GHQ in there for a couple turns that makes it hurt even more. After the Mesperits finally let up, my Claydol is gone and you'll spray my Uxie.
However, Gengar has a slightly unfavorable matchup vs. Speedrill. Here's why:
a. Pitch Dark will slow me down. I won't deny that. However, so far nobody has thought that the Gengar player might not start with Gastly. Also, you have to break the lock to damage me. I can just put an Uxie/Azelf up as a Poltergeist sacrifice. As long as I have an energy/Unown Q in my hand or on the Uxie/Azelf, I'm not too worried if you Shadow Room me. You probably will get the first hit. I might be able to set one Beedrill up, but it will probably be the RR one so I won't be attacking anyway. However, as long as I don't fall behind 2+ prizes I should be okay. Usually Pitch Dark only slows me down a turn.
b. Shadow Room. It won't hit my Claydol. It's not like I can't get going under a Pitch Dark lock. Usually a Claydol with Unown G is my first priority vs. Gengar. This leaves you to take a cheap prize off of Uxie or Azelf. I'm not dumb enough to play both down vs. Gengar. After this, however, you only have the RR Beedrill. Once I'm setup, I can Flutter a Kakuna if any are Rare Candied. Despite the Poltergeist threat, I can keep a couple Trainers/Supporters in my hand. As long as one of them is a search card and one is a Night Maintenance (which they usually are), I can setup another Beedrill easily with the use of the 2nd Flutter Wings.
c. Poltergeist. I've already explained this. Usually my hand is about 5 cards. 4 of those have to be Trainers to be an OHKO, 3 with some Crobats. However, I have Cosmic Power like every other deck. I can put anything I can't instantly get rid of back to the deck with Cosmic Power and Bebe's if I'm desperate. This won't leave much damage. The average amount of T/S/S for most decks is about 25. The average for Beedrill is maybe 32. This isn't a huge difference. It might turn 30 into 60 or 60 into 90, but it usually isn't the difference between win and loss.
d. Fainting Spell. This is probably what makes this matchup close to even. You'll usually hit 2 Spell flips of about 4 if you get setup well. You're taking 2 prizes there, 1 from my Azelf/Uxie, then you need 3 more prizes. Unless you Nidoqueen me, you won't take a prize a turn. I will. I need about 8 turns to win (I'm 100% setup on T3, not applying for Pitch Dark). So maybe 9 turns. So you use 1 for Azelf then 6 for the Beedrill KO's. That makes 7 turns. However, that assumes you always have a Gengar out. Usually you have a Gengar and a Shadow Room target T2. However, Beedrill will always have an attacker. Based off of what I've seen of Gengar, it's very hard to keep up with a KO each turn while getting Nidoqueen/Claydol out. Plus you're not attacking for the Pitch Dark turn. That evens it to ~9 turns each, assuming that the flips don't go in someone's favor. Most players seem to say that 3 Gengar is the average to get out. If you don't get Queen out, I'll hit for 90, then Uxie and send it to the bottom.
e. Nidoqueen. Her 2nd attack isn't as bad as it seems. However, Gengar will snipe my bench to 4. You OHKO me for 3 energy and 1-2 Crobat drops. Congrats. I Maintenance, get the Beedrill back and OHKO you for 1 energy. That's pretty much the story with Nidoqueen.
I can see Gengar having a slightly unfavorable-almost even matchup vs. Speedrill, but it's too hard to have everything you need at the right time to call it favorable. Gengar runs Poke Turn and Warp Point. My Beedrill didn't run Warp. That means you're actually more inconsistent than me. You probably have 2 Warps, 4 Poke Turn and 1 Night Maintenance to my 4 Night Maintenance. Plus you're probably running more energy. That's a lot more ways to get a poor start than Beedrill. Plus it doesn't have anything like the Rising Rivals Beedrill.
And this time I'll say it-
Feel free to argue. This is just my opinion based on facts.
However, Gengar has a slightly unfavorable matchup vs. Speedrill. Here's why:
a. Pitch Dark will slow me down. I won't deny that. However, so far nobody has thought that the Gengar player might not start with Gastly. Also, you have to break the lock to damage me. I can just put an Uxie/Azelf up as a Poltergeist sacrifice. As long as I have an energy/Unown Q in my hand or on the Uxie/Azelf, I'm not too worried if you Shadow Room me. You probably will get the first hit. I might be able to set one Beedrill up, but it will probably be the RR one so I won't be attacking anyway. However, as long as I don't fall behind 2+ prizes I should be okay. Usually Pitch Dark only slows me down a turn.
b. Shadow Room. It won't hit my Claydol. It's not like I can't get going under a Pitch Dark lock. Usually a Claydol with Unown G is my first priority vs. Gengar. This leaves you to take a cheap prize off of Uxie or Azelf. I'm not dumb enough to play both down vs. Gengar. After this, however, you only have the RR Beedrill. Once I'm setup, I can Flutter a Kakuna if any are Rare Candied. Despite the Poltergeist threat, I can keep a couple Trainers/Supporters in my hand. As long as one of them is a search card and one is a Night Maintenance (which they usually are), I can setup another Beedrill easily with the use of the 2nd Flutter Wings.
c. Poltergeist. I've already explained this. Usually my hand is about 5 cards. 4 of those have to be Trainers to be an OHKO, 3 with some Crobats. However, I have Cosmic Power like every other deck. I can put anything I can't instantly get rid of back to the deck with Cosmic Power and Bebe's if I'm desperate. This won't leave much damage. The average amount of T/S/S for most decks is about 25. The average for Beedrill is maybe 32. This isn't a huge difference. It might turn 30 into 60 or 60 into 90, but it usually isn't the difference between win and loss.
d. Fainting Spell. This is probably what makes this matchup close to even. You'll usually hit 2 Spell flips of about 4 if you get setup well. You're taking 2 prizes there, 1 from my Azelf/Uxie, then you need 3 more prizes. Unless you Nidoqueen me, you won't take a prize a turn. I will. I need about 8 turns to win (I'm 100% setup on T3, not applying for Pitch Dark). So maybe 9 turns. So you use 1 for Azelf then 6 for the Beedrill KO's. That makes 7 turns. However, that assumes you always have a Gengar out. Usually you have a Gengar and a Shadow Room target T2. However, Beedrill will always have an attacker. Based off of what I've seen of Gengar, it's very hard to keep up with a KO each turn while getting Nidoqueen/Claydol out. Plus you're not attacking for the Pitch Dark turn. That evens it to ~9 turns each, assuming that the flips don't go in someone's favor. Most players seem to say that 3 Gengar is the average to get out. If you don't get Queen out, I'll hit for 90, then Uxie and send it to the bottom.
e. Nidoqueen. Her 2nd attack isn't as bad as it seems. However, Gengar will snipe my bench to 4. You OHKO me for 3 energy and 1-2 Crobat drops. Congrats. I Maintenance, get the Beedrill back and OHKO you for 1 energy. That's pretty much the story with Nidoqueen.
I can see Gengar having a slightly unfavorable-almost even matchup vs. Speedrill, but it's too hard to have everything you need at the right time to call it favorable. Gengar runs Poke Turn and Warp Point. My Beedrill didn't run Warp. That means you're actually more inconsistent than me. You probably have 2 Warps, 4 Poke Turn and 1 Night Maintenance to my 4 Night Maintenance. Plus you're probably running more energy. That's a lot more ways to get a poor start than Beedrill. Plus it doesn't have anything like the Rising Rivals Beedrill.
And this time I'll say it-
Feel free to argue. This is just my opinion based on facts.
DarthPika said:
I'd also like to explain why Beedrill is so consistent. You have pretty much all your Pokemon out T3. And you're only running 5-7 energy. This means that if you Cosmic for about 4 cards after playing some Trainers, you won't have much in the deck you won't want. Therefore, I have a pretty good chance of getting the PlusPower or the Night Maintenance I need as long as I run enough copies.
However, Lou, a good Legoes will just setup too quickly. They'll have Dialgas out you can't one-shot. And how do you plan to setup with maybe one Cosmic Power/Setup a game? I can understand you don't need Claydol if you get setup, but how will you? They can Call or Roseanne the Palkia and a Mesperit and it's downhill for you from there.
However, Lou, a good Legoes will just setup too quickly. They'll have Dialgas out you can't one-shot. And how do you plan to setup with maybe one Cosmic Power/Setup a game? I can understand you don't need Claydol if you get setup, but how will you? They can Call or Roseanne the Palkia and a Mesperit and it's downhill for you from there.
Lou Cypher said:
This kind of post is EXACTLY why I don't offer advice or help very much. No one ever wants to actually listen. All I ever have is some scrub telling me that my hours and hours of play testing and MONTHS of observing how decks do in tourneys is wrong. :/
You guys can believe what you want. Have fun at the bottom tables.
Celebi, I know how consistent beedrill is. That doesn't stop the fact that it did NOT do well at US nats. I don't want to hear junk about how "ohh but it got top cut in some country with an 20 something player tourney". Big stinking deal. US nats is the true test of how good a deck is. Beedrill just did NOT do well.
FYI, I'm discounting Steve Silvestros Beedrill, as his list was far different than anything else.
just cause you have spent months play testing a deck doesn't make you the best player of it in the world. And actually, I am pretty sure Worlds is the true test of how good a deck is. US nationals is just one of the many events out there. Japan nationals are just as important, and not every nationals consist of like 30 people, as you are seeming to say. Just cause we dont devote ALL our time to researching a deck doesnt put us at the bottom tables. In fact, I was missing 16 cards from a Speedrill deck and I got 4th, so I am pretty sure I was NOT in the bottom...and if so called "scrubs" are the reason you dont want to help, than anyone who objects to your all mighty knowledge must be a scrub.
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