General T/S/S?

Pikachu6319

Pikachu6319

Scooby
Member
Okay, first off if this in the wrong section any mod can feel free to move it.

Now on to the topic. I know some flexibility is required (ie Lost World shouldn't be in a deck doesn't intend to take advantage of the effect, Rare Candy is useless in a deck that has only Basic Pokemon, probably some other exemptions) but is it safe to say there are a good number of Trainers that should be in every deck? Here is my notices based on recent uses:

3-4 Rare Candy (except in Basic Only decks)
3-4 Pokemon Communication (except Vileplume?)
2-4 Junk Arm (except Vileplume)
2-4 Pokemon Collector
2-4 Professor Juniper
2-4 Switch (except Vileplume)
2-4 Pokemon Catcher (except Vileplume)
2-4 Cheren OR Sage's Training
2-4 Super Rod (except Vileplume)
2-3 N

Feel free to add to the list I'm pretty sure I'm missing a bunch of them. My major playing days were when there wasn't much other than Bill, Professor Oak, Pokmon Breeder/Trader and the occasional Energy Removal and Super variant. Any help in compiling this working list would be greatly appreciated.
 
Energy Retrieval should be taken off of that list. The only decks that play that are Emboar or Feraligatr varients. I'd say Sage's and Juniper are in pretty much every deck. At least 2 Sage's and at least 1 Juniper. Pokemon Catcher is pretty common in non-Trainer Lock decks. Another big one would be switch. Almost every deck runs at least one of those because of all of the Catchers in peoples' decks.
 
I agree about the Junipers. They should probably be added to the list. Like 2-4 of them maybe. Also Dual Ball; I see a lot of those around. But I don't know about the Retrievals or PONTs.....well definitely not the Retrievals and I'm not sure about everyone else but PONTs really aren't that popular in the masters division around where I am :p I think it's because of most of the decks being run are ReshiPhlosion and they all have like, Cleffa but I don't know. I do know that PONT used to be used all the time around here.

And definitely Catcher for non-lock decks. Also, maybe Cheren and Elm??
 
Briaah said:
I agree about the Junipers. They should probably be added to the list. Like 2-4 of them maybe. Also Dual Ball; I see a lot of those around. But I don't know about the Retrievals or PONTs.....well definitely not the Retrievals and I'm not sure about everyone else but PONTs really aren't that popular in the masters division around where I am :p I think it's because of most of the decks being run are ReshiPhlosion and they all have like, Cleffa but I don't know. I do know that PONT used to be used all the time around here.

And definitely Catcher for non-lock decks. Also, maybe Cheren and Elm??
Click to expand...

Cheren could make the list, but not that many people play it. I really only see lock decks or Stage 2s playing it. I don't really see Elm making the list because not many decks play it. Most of the decks that play it are either young players or Trainer Lock decks. I guess you could say Twins is a staple in most decks today.

Oh, and how could we forget N? That card is good because it can disrupt your opponent or give you a good hand refresh when you need it.
 
Changed some on the 'general' list.

I'm personally not a fan of Sage's Training. While it is nice to be able to choose any two cards you still have to discard the other three. Granted some retrievals (like Super Rod and Junk Arm) help migitate that but it doesn't solve it completley.

The one obstacle I see with N (for hand refreshes anyway) is that it is dependant on prize cards. The more you've taken the less cards you get. That works okay for opponent disruption, unless they have alot of prize cards still down.
 
Personal preference doesn't matter. Sage's Training is run as a 3-4 of in almost every single deck in the format, while you have Energy Retrieval there, which nobody runs 4 of, and nobody runs any of but Reshiboar. Cheren is also pretty much never used as its mostly outclassed by Sage's Training. Junk Arm is a 4 of in every non Plume deck but a 0 in a plume deck, I don't see where you get 2 from. Until this list gets cleaned up to represent the good trainers correctly I don't see it being that useful.
 
I would clean it up like so:

Code: 
3-4 Rare Candy
3-4 N
3-4 Pokemon Communication
3-4 Junk Arm (except with Vileplume)
3-4 Sage's Training
3-4 Twins (in decks that rely on them)
2-4 Pokemon Collector / Dual Ball
2-4 Professor Juniper
2-4 Pokemon Catcher (except with Vileplume)
2-3 Cheren (to an extent)

Those are the ones that I honestly think can be used in almost any deck. There are gimmicky ones like Twins, but Twins is used enough to be on the list. Other cards like Energy Retreival and Black Belt aren't used as much, and PONT and PETM are outclassed by many other things. That's my take on it, anyway. If ND was included, this would be much different.
 
Well, I think Cheren's will be rising in popularity. I know a couple of people around here who use it in ReshiPhlosion decks instead of Ninetales or even to augment it. Still, I guess the fact that it is a supporter is kinda a drawback(except for lock decks) And yeah, Elm was a random suggestion. I know I use it in ReshiPhlosion but I guess not many decks really need to anymore. Not too sure about Twins. It's great if you know that you'll probably lose a card first but I don't think decks such as ZPST really need it.

And yes, I totally agree with N. It's sorta like a cross between Twins and PONT (if you have 6 prize cards left it's exactly like PONT); in fact, it's almost better than Twins except for the fact that you can choose your cards with Twins whereas N is more random. But still, I definitely see N being used more.

EDIT: @The Yoshi- I think that list is pretty good; but maybe switch should be included as well? I mean, I know it's good to use if you're also running catcher...but then of course it's not really necessary so nvm probably :p
 
@Dark Void: I disagree about personal preference. In my opinion it does matter as if it didn't then everyone would be running the exact same deck (Reshiboar, Corners, whatever). The luck of the draw should be factored as well, which means even with Sage's Training in a deck it might still never come up to be of use while a player might start out with Cheren each time they draw a card at the start of the turn. A difference in draw engine (whether it's Sage's Training, Cheren, Bianca or whatever) won't necessarily break a deck. This is supposed to start as a general list which is why Junk Arm is on the list as it seems to be good for every deck not using Vileplume (this example is a good reason why Energy Retrieval shouldn't be on a general list though) but depending on the speed of the deck or the importance of the trainers (when most are already stocking 4 of the important cards) it is entirely possible that maxing Junk Arm might be excessive, again depending on the deck.

@The Yoshi: I think the N count is a little to high, of course depending on the type of deck one is running. I find, in terms of card draws, that N doesn't do much more for me than Cheren does (my Outrage deck has a high knockout ratio). I do agree in terms of disruption that it could be very good. As a personal note I would probably only run 2 N's in most of the decks. Also, unless I'm missing something I would say that Pokemon Collector is better than Dual Ball; it let's you get more Pokemon and doesn't require two coin flips to work.

@Briaah: I would agree that a couple Switch is a good idea if room can be found. Take Terrakion for example, unless using a fighting deck his second attack isn't going to see much use, and one should have a way to get him out after using Retaliate.
 
You just said Sage's Training is worse than Cheren because sometimes you will never draw into Sage's Training but sometimes you will have Cheren in every single hand. If you don't see how laughably flawed that logic is, that throws everything you say out the window in terms of validity. On the Junk Arm topic, it is the best card in format. If your deck isn't Vileplume and you aren't running 4 Junk Arm, your list is not as good as a list running 4 Junk Arm, no matter the deck. Its that good.


Pikachu6319 said:
but is it safe to say there are a good number of Trainers that should be in every deck? Here is my notices based on recent uses:
Click to expand...

In every deck. Energy Retrieval is in 1 deck that nobody plays or even considers viable enough to put on the tier list. That doesn't match.
 
I can.

PONT is outclassed by:

-N
-Professor Juniper
-Cleffa

PETM is outclassed by:

-Pokemon Communication
-Twins
-Ultra Ball (ND)
-Sunflora (in grass decks)

Done.
 
ok, thank you yoshi.

Not too fond of twins, as it has an awkward condition attached.

somehow I forgot about cleffa for hand refresh.

and is Ultra Ball really that good? 2 cards seems to be a high price for something other cards do better.
At least junk arm was unique in effect
 
PONT and Juniper are totally situational. It's all based on personal preference. Sometimes I wish my Juniper was a PONT and vice versa. Elm's is nowadays useless.
OT: There shouldn't be more than 2 Super rods in a deck. Especially since most every deck runs 3-4 Junk Arms. Ultra Ball will be in most decks IMO. It's great, but not at the same time. You just need two cards to discard instead of putting a pokemon back in your deck that you may not have in your hand. Ultra ball will be played in every deck that needs energy in the discard pile. Like ReshiPhlosion and MagneEels. Also, any deck that runs Vileplume should run 3 communications to help get the turn 2 Plume.
 
@Dark Void: Rereading that post it does come off as kind of confusing. As far as I'm concerned with so many drawing options avaliable (though not all of them are good I admit) I still say that personal preference in that matter is still vaild, and that is the point I was trying to make. I suggest on this particular matter we're just going to have to agree to disagree. And while perhaps Energy Retrieval doesn't really belong on this list, I see plenty of Reshiram variant decks (usually with ability Emboar) that saying it's not played isn't really true.

@ The Yoshi: I don't think necessarily think N outclasses POTN, as the first effect of N goes down for every prize card you have taken. At best it rivals N, depending on how quickly you do (or don't) get Prizes and how important one considers it to disrupt the opponent. Your right once Ultra Ball gets released in English it might very well find itself in most decks as you can search out any Pokemon and it might be possible to make use of the two card discard.
 
You have forgotten the other effect of N, my friend. In any deck other than Magnezone and ones that utilize Tropical Beach, N can cripple an opponent if they have taken 2-3 prizes. PONT does nothing to hurt your opponent, and N practically does the same thing PONT does, plus more. They don't really rival each other: N being able to manipulate your opponent makes it better in this case.
 
To a point. I think PONT might be better in higher counts for decks that don't run Beach or Magnezone.

Eelzone will love Ultra Ball.
 
N's ability to hurt the opponet is the reason I think it rivals PONT, maybe it's just me but I'd rather help myself over hurt my opponent but that would depend on the situation. Honestly, how many people use or even have access to Tropical Beach, I know I don't and I have access to alot of things.
 
3-4 Rare Candy (except in Basic Only decks)
3-4 Pokemon Communication (except Vileplume?)
3-4 Junk Arm (except Vileplume)
4 Pokemon Collector
2-4 Professor Juniper
0-1 Switch (except Vileplume)
2-4 Pokemon Catcher (except Vileplume)
2-4 Sage's Training
0-2 Super Rod (except Vileplume)
2-4 of any combination of PONTS and Ns.

Here, I fixed this up for you. You don't want to run 2-4 Switch ever ever ever. It will just slow down your deck, if anything. Make sure that when you're building a deck, you ALWAYS include 4 Pokemon Collector and 3-4 Pokemon Communication - those are must staples for almost every deck (High HP Basic decks and trainer lock don't count when it comes to Comms).
 
3-4 Switches are ever so needed in 6 corners. You need to be able to switch out your active after you do the shaymin drop.
 
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