has pokemon "jumped the shark"?

Can somebody please tell me whats broken about a stage 2 with an attack that's easy to work around, and that needs a body to also be working, in a format with no claydol? Because of a supporter that you have to play within the same turn of the attack? How is this supposed to deal with SP? Or because you're using it in succession with the other gengar, which means you'll be having two stage 2s out with three energy attached? LL is far from broken, even more so when it works around a BODY, or an attack that is easily worked around, that needs to use a supporter to get one pokemon for sure.

DPL is far from being broken as well, a legend that needs three energy that doesn't use DCE and has a weakness to luxray. Not a lot more needs to be said...

Pokemon is not "jumping the shark", it's doing exactly what every normal ccg does, it fluctuates, and explores new avenues of development. The format will slow down, and even more new things will be explored, more than likely more "instant" speed trainers and other alternate win condition cards. Or maybe not, pokemons been pretty slow with development, they have just recently printed a card you can play on your opponents turn, this concept is by no means new for ccgs or degenerate for pokemon. Pokemon has a LOT of unexplored development, don't be scared when they take a step into it.
 
Sabett said:
Can somebody please tell me whats broken about a stage 2 with an attack that's easy to work around, and that needs a body to also be working, in a format with no claydol? Because of a supporter that you have to play within the same turn of the attack? How is this supposed to deal with SP? Or because you're using it in succession with the other gengar, which means you'll be having two stage 2s out with three energy attached? LL is far from broken, even more so when it works around a BODY, or an attack that is easily worked around, that needs to use a supporter to get one pokemon for sure.
Click to expand...

As far Gengar is concerned it also has Mew prime which once it send a Gengar prime to the lost zone it can use the attack and recover much quicker. Also, Gengar has a level x which can remove its number one counter every turn and while there is power spay it still present a considerable strain on the sp deck's speed to counter
 
arcv2 said:
As far Gengar is concerned it also has Mew prime which once it send a Gengar prime to the lost zone it can use the attack and recover much quicker. Also, Gengar has a level x which can remove its number one counter every turn and while there is power spay it still present a considerable strain on the sp deck's speed to counter
Click to expand...
Mew Prime is way too fragile to be that impacting to the game, even more so when you have to attack with it once before you use gengar's attack.

Cursegar's already way underneath SP with claydol, I don't see how this is going to be better.

Also, let's say everything does end up working out ok and you've used your fourth hunter. Then what? Snipe for 30? Seems terrible. Unless we're running a cursegar build....then we're setting up two stage 2's and three energy...post rotation.
 
Sabett said:
Mew Prime is way too fragile to be that impacting to the game, even more so when you have to attack with it once before you use gengar's attack.

Cursegar's already way underneath SP with claydol, I don't see how this is going to be better.

Also, let's say everything does end up working out ok and you've used your fourth hunter. Then what? Snipe for 30? Seems terrible. Unless we're running a cursegar build...then we're setting up two stage 2's and three energy...post rotation.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying mew is the only attacker but you only need 6 pokemon in the lost zone to win and lets you start with mew then every mew after can use it when they come up and attack while gengar sets up again and you really have at most 8 hunter uses w/ vs seeker.
 
arcv2 said:
I'm not saying mew is the only attacker but you only need 6 pokemon in the lost zone to win and lets you start with mew then every mew after can use it when they come up and attack while gengar sets up again and you really have at most 8 hunter uses w/ vs seeker.
Click to expand...
Your math would still be off...a bunch of 60hp basic attackers doesn't make this strategy any closer to format warping. What would this deck do against something that can do at least 60 damgae a turn, like oh say idk, a Luxray X? Trading prize for pokemon to send to the lost zone, and that's if you're able to get the hunter out for that turn? And then what do you do if they decided to stop dropping pokemon on the bench? Also, once again, this is a body we're talking about right? So if it ever got crazy, guess who would make an appearance. The answer's to this strategy are over a year old. This has been getting way too much hype, and doesn't warrant a banhammer or for it to never see english. SP will still roll over this like nothing.
 
Sabett said:
Your math would still be off...a bunch of 60hp basic attackers doesn't make this strategy any closer to format warping. What would this deck do against something that can do at least 60 damgae a turn, like oh say idk, a Luxray X? Trading prize for pokemon to send to the lost zone, and that's if you're able to get the hunter out for that turn? And then what do you do if they decided to stop dropping pokemon on the bench? Also, once again, this is a body we're talking about right? So if it ever got crazy, guess who would make an appearance. The answer's to this strategy are over a year old. This has been getting way too much hype, and doesn't warrant a banhammer or for it to never see english. SP will still roll over this like nothing.
Click to expand...

First of all, if they don't have a bench, that presents you with a nice way to win. 1-0-1 machamp tech will deal with that.

Ultimately, you need to playtest this deck to know how rediculously powerful it is. Then you'll see.
 
Pokemon has been jumping the shark for years now but I dont think it will end soon as the new "wacky" things they add keep it freash and new IMO
 
amisheskimoninja said:
First of all, if they don't have a bench, that presents you with a nice way to win. 1-0-1 machamp tech will deal with that.

Ultimately, you need to playtest this deck to know how rediculously powerful it is. Then you'll see.
Click to expand...


So what if your playing a donk deck?
 
bigpokex said:
So what if your playing a donk deck?
Click to expand...

Then you play the deck exactly as planned.

PokePain said:
Pokemon has been jumping the shark for years now but I don't think it will end soon as the new "wacky" things they add keep it freash and new IMO
Click to expand...

Jumping the shark is a specific event. Its one thing that happens. Its not really a gradual think. So what in the past are you referring to?
 
What is stopping someone from playing their own stadium and saying bye to lost world? What is stopping someone from playing a ditto with one psychic energy and pulling off your gengar's attack itself? What is stopping DGX from lost zoning your psychic energy so you can't pull off your first attack, resisting any other gengar threat, and shutting off your trainers/stadiums and your bodies? Gengar is NOT broken.
 
So you guys can all say that you would be playing if the best cards int eh format were stage 2's that took 3-4 turns to set up cost RRRR to do 100 damage and discard one of those energy? I know for a fact that most of you joined somewhat recently in the LA-Current era, could all of you legitmaly claim that you would be playing if we had cards like Base set Charizard?

This game is growing bigger every day for a reason. This is very good as it keeps the tourneys fresh with new faces, more people for bigger tourneys. And more minds=More ideas.

People get stuck up on the "OMG thats BDIF, I must play it" but one of the things that makes pokemon so good is that there is a way to beat everything. No matter what there is a card that will beat a certain deck. weather its obvious or you have to look through scans/Binders and test matchups there is SOMETHING to beat a certain deck.

You guys are also freaking about these new cards that will be coming out.
KGL has weakness to the 2 most played cards in the format in Jumpluff and Luxray. And don't say that the rotation will affect either of thesse. Jumpluff looses claydol but can easily be replaced by Uxie/SSU which several varients have alerady been relying on. It keeps Sunflora which is a an exclent engine for any grass deck post claydol. LuxChomp looses Unown G which wasnt even nescarry for their stratgy. Also consider this. Most decks are running 7-13 energy now. lets say that you have 35 cards in your deck which is pretty reasonable for around T5 without claydol. Lets also say that you have 7 energy in your deck which is also very reasonable. That means that on average there should be an energy every 5 cards. Now how many cards does Kyogre look for energy? the answer is 5. That means your dealing 30 to your opponets bench for an energy cost of WWCC. I hardly see this as a game breaking card. Something that you need 2 parts of to even set down then 4 energy to even attack. And you might say well I'll play 4 Legend box and a 2/2 of KGL. Well good luck with trainer lock and you might want to read this thread which shows the increadibly low percantage of actually hitting both legend halfs in the top 10 cards of your deck. Link Not to mention you get one shot by a Flash Impact after they use 1 Flash bite or a Jumpluff with a full bench after they use flash bite. Not to mention they do this for 1 Energy.

Same thing goes for Dialga/Palkia legend. Except you have weakness to Luxray which will still be one of the most used cards in the format. And to fire which will be a rapidly growing type with people using Ninetails/Typhlosion as draw engines.

You also freak out about Gengar being way to powerful with Lost World and Hunter. But this is easily countered. As lou said eariler DialgaChomp stops this in its track. No stadium no trainers and your extremly low damage output shows really badly. You say level down, I say power spray. Also don't forget that you loose claydol at the rotation. Good luck getting a stage 2 with multiple energy set up while you try and do your hunter gimick every turn to make sure they have a pokemon in thier hand. And don't say, Oh I'll use Mew to lost zone a Gengar prime then attack with mew. Well Mew has 60 Hp. It's safe to assume that you will loose 1 to get that Gengar to the lost zone, and you'll loose one for every time that you attack. So unless you have a way of attaching mroe psychic energy that means that IF your opponet ahs a pokemon in their hand that you will send one to the lost zone. Unless I'm mistaken that means that I will take 6 prizes before you are able to send 6 pokemon to my lost zone. Sableye will also be one of the most used cards too. Weather through Sableyelock or just being used to help set up. All it will take is Sableye and a Dark energy to KO donk your Gastly T1. It takes Crobat+Special dark to KO a Mew. It takes any dark pokemon 70 damage or 60+1 Flash bite to KO Gengar Prime.

TL: DR

You guys just have too much time on your hands as you wait for the next set to be released as most of you are not going to worlds thus there is no point to test for worlds. Most of the stuff that you are freaking out about won't even be in the next set. And without power creep or testing of new mechanics the game wouldn't be where it is today.
 
^
I do agree w/ you, i did overlook D-chomp(mainly cuz i hate that deck but that's a story for another day :p
Also i pretty much find Legend Box pointless, i'd rather play communication/bebe's or even pokeball :)
I know i've already said this but all the legends coming out basically sux, they are the slowest things on the planet w/ horrible weakness(es), the only one that can legitely attack before it's toast is DCL, but that thing just spreads around damage counters and has weakness to Fighting...
Also i I3 mew prime...
 
amisheskimoninja said:
First of all, if they don't have a bench, that presents you with a nice way to win. 1-0-1 machamp tech will deal with that.

Ultimately, you need to playtest this deck to know how rediculously powerful it is. Then you'll see.
Click to expand...
Why yes, obscure and random as that would be for a gengar/mew deck to play, that is an answer to one of the many ways I talked about dealing with this deck.

So it's broken and format warping because of techs? Keeps on sounding like a normal deck to me...

Also, I just thought of this last night, but know what's a funny tech against gengar/mew? Fossils. Makes Gengar attach another energy and have to attack twice if it wants to deal with it, or run crobat g which is odd as well. Protects you against the apparent flurry of hunters this deck somehow manages to pull off each turn, and still find enough draw power to set up itself. Oh and I'm sure you could run another tech for it or something in gengar, but then that's making it even clunkier, and even further from sounding like some sort of format warping deck.

The math is still off on this whole strategy as well and hasn't been explained.

Also, if pokemon is "jumping the shark", why are the base set trainers still miles ahead in brokenness compared to now? Where's our professor Oak? Or is that too much for jumping the shark? Where's our Gust of Wind? (Don't say lux X, that's a one time use on a pokemon for a specific archetype) Where's our Bill? (The trainer one) Where's a our DRE? (I know that wasn't in base set) I mean if we're jumping the shark, let's see the goods, so to speak.
 
Sabett said:
Why yes, obscure and random as that would be for a gengar/mew deck to play, that is an answer to one of the many ways I talked about dealing with this deck.

So it's broken and format warping because of techs? Keeps on sounding like a normal deck to me...
Click to expand...

Its just an option. Likely your opponent won't keep their bench completely empty in case you do have a way of OHKO. And I think a great majority of decks will start playing 1-0-1 machamp in order to deal with SP/Legends


Sabett said:
Also, I just thought of this last night, but know what's a funny tech against gengar/mew? Fossils. Makes Gengar attach another energy and have to attack twice if it wants to deal with it, or run crobat g which is odd as well. Protects you against the apparent flurry of hunters this deck somehow manages to pull off each turn, and still find enough draw power to set up itself. Oh and I'm sure you could run another tech for it or something in gengar, but then that's making it even clunkier, and even further from sounding like some sort of format warping deck.
Click to expand...

I'm toatally not understanding why fossils or crobat g is a tech. Also, hunter isn't just an attach tech, its your draw power, which obviously helps you set up. A free uxie every turn is about as good as you're going to get in this format.

Sabett said:
Also, if pokemon is "jumping the shark", why are the base set trainers still miles ahead in brokenness compared to now? Where's our professor Oak? Or is that too much for jumping the shark? Where's our Gust of Wind? (Don't say lux X, that's a one time use on a pokemon for a specific archetype) Where's our Bill? (The trainer one) Where's a our DRE? (I know that wasn't in base set) I mean if we're jumping the shark, let's see the goods, so to speak.
Click to expand...

You're not understanding what it means to "jump the shark". You're talking about power creep. I'm talking about gimicky cards that give you silly new ways of winning. Gust of wind and professor oak are neither.
 
amisheskimoninja said:
Its just an option. Likely your opponent won't keep their bench completely empty in case you do have a way of OHKO. And I think a great majority of decks will start playing 1-0-1 machamp in order to deal with SP/Legends
Click to expand...
The point of me saying that has two reasons. One, that's very obscure, and unlikely to happen, I don't think I have to explain how a machamp has almost nothing to do with a gengar prime's strategy. Two, that only replied to one of the things I talked about.
amisheskimoninja said:
I'm toatally not understanding why fossils or crobat g is a tech. Also, hunter isn't just an attach tech, its your draw power, which obviously helps you set up. A free uxie every turn is about as good as you're going to get in this format.
Click to expand...
Fossils would be a tech against Gengar, gengar uses hunter, they attack and find no pokemon. Crobat G would be a tech against fossils via gengar's second attack, unless of course you wanted to attack twice, which seems really bad. Also, how are you supposed to draw more than a couple of cards each turn? Once you're at 7, how are you supposed to bring it down more?

Let's say you do manage to draw about 3 cards a turn. Then what? You're going to have another Mew in hand for sure to have ready even though you can't play a supporter because you're using hunter each turn? Unless of course you don't play it that turn, but then that probably means you're hitting for 0 on your attack, which means you're a further step behind on top of the one you had to do to get gengar prime in the lost zone.
amisheskimoninja said:
You're not understanding what it means to "jump the shark". You're talking about power creep. I'm talking about gimicky cards that give you silly new ways of winning. Gust of wind and professor oak are neither.
Click to expand...
Here's what the wiki says on that: "Jumping the shark is an idiom used to describe the moment of downturn for a previously successful enterprise."

Here's urban dictionary:
"a term to describe a moment when something that was once great has reached a point where it will now decline in quality and popularity."

So from what I understand right now, from them printing a card with an alternate win condition, you find it to be proof that pokemon is taking a downturn and is attempting to obtain more popularity through creating a gimic.

First of all, pokemon is not taking a downturn, or is in such a ridiculous scenario that it needs to print cards of ridiculous level so they can keep it going.

Secondly, you greatly misunderstand what this card represents. Magic and yu-gi-oh both have developed their own alternate win cards, both are doing just fine. What this stadium represents is taking a step into design space that has been a long time coming, just like power spray. This is by no means a new idea, or a gimic, as it does represent a viable strategy and is viable in it's means of execution. If you're looking for gimics in the pokemon card world, Primes should've been on the top of your list, which I personally blame on lethargy as apposed to running out of ideas, not an actual expansion on development.

Pokemon has a lot of catching up to do as far as development, more instant spells, to the point where you're suddenly not playing in a bubble anymore, but where your opponent can actually do something on your turn, that you don't expect. More alternate win condition cards, this one we have now will probably be one of the most viable ones, more of them down the line will probably be not near as powerful. And just more complex strategies as pokemon come out. Unless pokemon suddenly has a large financial crisis, it is far from being in any position to jump the shark.

TLDR: Pokemon's not taking a downturn by any means, and you're confusing new developments with gimics.
 
^I could swear the wikipedia article has changed since I looked it up about a year ago. Anyway, this was more what I was going for (the next line in wiki): "The phrase was originally used to denote the point in a television program's history where the plot spins off into absurd story lines or unlikely characterizations. "

I'd call gengar lost zoning 6 pokemon to win for some reason pretty absurd.
 
amisheskimoninja said:
^I could swear the wikipedia article has changed since I looked it up about a year ago. Anyway, this was more what I was going for (the next line in wiki): "The phrase was originally used to denote the point in a television program's history where the plot spins off into absurd story lines or unlikely characterizations. "

I'd call gengar lost zoning 6 pokemon to win for some reason pretty absurd.
Click to expand...
So all this means is that it's absurd? What is wrong with this? Even more so when this supposed absurdness can't deal with SP. Is this only to say that this deck will be crazy? I guess. Not as crazy as SP. SP has definitely been more absurd, and will continue to be.

We've been talking about gengar lost zoning 6 pokemon, it's easily answerable. If it ever tried to get off the ground Dialga G would just go up in popularity, or just teching a fossil into your deck, or it would just be outraced by SP. This archetype isn't even format warping, how is it supposed to be jumping the shark if it doesn't even break the format worse than GG?

amisheskimoninja said:
Think about it. I'm a trainer fighting you. My gengar grabs 6 things out of your bag and then I declare myself the winner of the battle.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure you can't do that until next turn, and it would be your fault for keeping 6 pokemon in your hand you should know not to keep pokemon in your hand. Obviously people would play against this deck just like they would any other.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top