Finished Mafia XLII: War of the Gods ~ GAME OVER ~ Town wins!

[Celever]

scattered is right. You totally misread the case, @Lord o da rings.

 

[bbninjas]

scattered is right. You totally misread the case, @Lord o da rings.

NP actually gave a reason why for this; did you miss it?

@Celever, you didn't respond to this.

I have no reads, but you pretty much just "evaluating" and trying to fly under the radar D1 is annoying. Sure, we have no information, that's why you start with asking questions. Why are you gonna complain that we have no information, and just withdraw yourself until we have some? Unless you don't have the time right now than you should be here helping us gather information. If you want to be certain scum has been found then could you please help us find one?

-snip-

This entire post seemed overly aggressive.

@Professor Palutena @mirdo I saw both of you earlier yet neither of you have posted recently. What's up with that?

 

[mordacazir]

scattered is right. You totally misread the case, @Lord o da rings.

@Celever, you didn't respond to this.


This entire post seemed overly aggressive.

@Professor Palutena @mirdo I saw both of you earlier yet neither of you have posted recently. What's up with that?

What do you guys think about HW?

 

[Scattered mind]

HW takes a similar stance as other known players like Reinforce and Athena, which is to skip D1 and let the other players do the hard work for them. It's not fun, it's dirty play, but it is not indicative of any alignment. Unless it's something new for that player to do. I was also annoyed by that, but this is how the meta works. One thing I can say, is that I will gladly lynch such a player in the event there is no other option, but in this case , 1. we still have time 2. there is another option (NP).

 

[bbninjas]

What do you guys think about HW?

I am waiting for HW to respond to your case on him.

HW takes a similar stance as other known players like Reinforce and Athena, which is to skip D1 and let the other players do the hard work for them. It's not fun, it's dirty play, but it is not indicative of any alignment. Unless it's something new for that player to do. I was also annoyed by that, but this is how the meta works. One thing I can say, is that I will gladly lynch such a player in the event there is no other option, but in this case , 1. we still have time 2. there is another option (NP).

You would lynch someone over not being particularly valuable during Day 1, where that same person would very likely be valuable Day 2 and onwards? Why?

 

[Celever]

@Celever, you didn't respond to this.

Lorde p much summed up my thoughts, so I saw it as unnecessary.

What do you guys think about HW?

P much what scattered said above. Reinforce and Thena are two of the best players I've played with, and their playstyles involve lurking on Day 1 and coming into their own later. As mentioned by scattered, it's annoying, and usually these kinds of players end up nk'd early, but if they make it further it's useful in the long run.

 

[bbninjas]

Lorde p much summed up my thoughts, so I saw it as unnecessary.

Somewhat ironic considering you said that lorde "totally misread the case". I have definitely said in past games that ignoring a direct question because someone else summed up your thoughts is most unhelpful, because people can't read your mind.

Either way, are you sure that your thoughts are the same as lordes, because what lorde said was very WIFOMy and simply not well thought out - anything can be a fabricated stance.

"It could easily be a fabricated stance, this has been pointed out. Don't rule this out." - lorde

P much what scattered said above. Reinforce and Thena are two of the best players I've played with, and their playstyles involve lurking on Day 1 and coming into their own later. As mentioned by scattered, it's annoying, and usually these kinds of players end up nk'd early, but if they make it further it's useful in the long run.

No they don't...? PMJ does sometimes, but normally both Reinforce and Athena would survive to Day 4 at least (in larger games).

 

[Scattered mind]

You would lynch someone over not being particularly valuable during Day 1, where that same person would very likely be valuable Day 2 and onwards? Why?

Policy lynch. Of course, only in the event I stated, which is unlikely to happen in a future mafia game.

 

[Scattered mind]

@bbninjas- is there a point discussing this theoretical point about whether or not it is good to lynch a player that ignores D1 in the event there are no other options, in this game? You kinda stray us from scumhunting.

 

[Scattered mind]

NP actually gave a reason why for this; did you miss it?

Could you direct me to that quote so I can understand exactly what you two are referring to?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Quotes in the order that they stood out to me:

I'm waiting for a scum tell. I see no reason thus far in my eyes that NP is scum; even if he is shadely dodging questions based on speculation of playstyle.

There's no commitment in this post. He says I'm dodging questions in a shady manner, but doesn't consider it a scum tell. IIRC, he tends shady and scummy fairly interchangeably, which means that what he's saying amounts to nothing. He's adding some fuel to the fire, but when I flip, he'll use the other part of this statement.

I think Celever might be onto something, and this is the most interesting part of it. I can't figure out if it's annoyance of Celever pushing for him, or whether it's just a cop-out.

Neither. Luis and I had scheduled to talk 30 minutes before that post, but he had to prepare something. We started talking at 4:49 EST, which is why I didn't think I had the time to examine my own meta. I also will have no computer access for the next couple of weeks (I'll still be able to post about as much as I do now, just probably not ISO, as it's really hard on mobile.) which is why I couldn't examine my meta unless I decided to stay up past midnight.

And NP has 2-3 votes on him already. In a game as small as this the last thing I need to do is give other players the opportunity to hammer.

2-3 votes aren't very many. As a townie, the vote is your weapon. Why don't you want to use it?
Besides, if somebody hammered me on IRL Day 2, it would probably be a good thing, as that player is very likely to be scum.

While I agree with you regarding the level of aggressiveness not being that alerting, it is not the main point Celever has brought, imo. The thing is that he's actually trying to appear that way. The evidence for that is the quotes Celever brought showing how NP stating indirectly "this is how I play". So yeah, feel free to comment on that point.

I'm trying to play more aggressively than in the past. It's just RVS that I'm always aggressive at. As for why I quoted that, I interpreted lorde's post as saying "You're never aggressive in RVS."

NP's hypocrisy is important to remember. bb made the same play as others had made, which NP then swiftly labelled as "bad", yet NP said it was "good" when bb did so. 'Tis an interesting interaction.

I've said it before, but those plays are totally different. One is a bandwagon, while another is the first vote on someone. The first vote being that way is useless, but the bandwagon actually helps.

 

[bbninjas]

@bbninjas- is there a point discussing this theoretical point about whether or not it is good to lynch a player that ignores D1 in the event there are no other options, in this game? You kinda stray us from scumhunting.

I am scumhunting. Your logic did not (and still does not) make sense and could be a scumtell. You say that we could policy lynch players like HW for lurking Day 1. That's a terrible lynch, since HW contributes well beyond Day 1. Hence why your logic is weird.

Could you direct me to that quote so I can understand exactly what you two are referring to?

I'm sure NP said something about inexperienced/experienced players, but I can't find that after multiple times of backlogging. I probably misread something, my bad.

Neither. Luis and I had scheduled to talk 30 minutes before that post, but he had to prepare something. We started talking at 4:49 EST, which is why I didn't think I had the time to examine my own meta. I also will have no computer access for the next couple of weeks (I'll still be able to post about as much as I do now, just probably not ISO, as it's really hard on mobile.) which is why I couldn't examine my meta unless I decided to stay up past midnight.

You said "I don't have the time", which is cool (I get that), but you also say that you "don't have the desire". This is weird, and shouldn't have anything to do with you expecting to talk to Luis, hence why I theorised that you were either frustrated (neutral) or that it's something of a cop out (scummy). What Celever brought up here about you should being able to say something off the top of your head is very true considering what you said prior. Celever's question about the difference between last time you played aggressively shouldn't have been difficult to answer, and this thing about more/less later didn't even tie to that. Again, you responded to Celever's question as mentioned with "you're too busy/don't have the desire", and somewhat abruptly too. It shouldn't have been too difficult to right up a sentence or two, especially considering you did that anyway - noone was asking you to go back an analyse your meta.

2-3 votes aren't very many. As a townie, the vote is your weapon. Why don't you want to use it?
Besides, if somebody hammered me on IRL Day 2, it would probably be a good thing, as that player is very likely to be scum.

Townies can hammer people by mistake. It happens.


Something I noticed on the backlog:

Both hosting a game and reading the first couple of days in the mafia tournament.
Hosting a game let me see a lot about how nothing gets done without pressure starting early. You only got out of RVS because of your weak lead on Jesi, which just lead to more weak leads and a last minute lynch.
In the mafia tournament, they didn't even consider RVS worth it. That showed me how much we should strive to get out of RVS and find a lead. Pressuring people helps find one.

This post is very much "RVS isn't helpful; we need to pressure instead". Yet, only a few posts prior, you RVS'd Ice Espeon (see below). Out of the blue, without any form of pressure, nothing. What's with that contradiction?

Also, I'll
##UNVOTE: mordacazir
##VOTE: Ice Espeon
You were the last player to like the conformation post. That clearly mean that you're scum.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

I have to go, so don't expect another response for at least 12 hours.

You said "I don't have the time", which is cool (I get that), but you also say that you "don't have the desire". This is weird, and shouldn't have anything to do with you expecting to talk to Luis, hence why I theorised that you were either frustrated (neutral) or that it's something of a cop out (scummy). What Celever brought up here about you should being able to say something off the top of your head is very true considering what you said prior. Celever's question about the difference between last time you played aggressively shouldn't have been difficult to answer, and this thing about more/less later didn't even tie to that. Again, you responded to Celever's question as mentioned with "you're too busy/don't have the desire", and somewhat abruptly too. It shouldn't have been too difficult to right up a sentence or two, especially considering you did that anyway - noone was asking you to go back an analyse your meta.

What was I supposed to do besides analyze my own meta? I said what I tried to do differently. What might have changed between games that I was not consciously attempting to do can only be shown by looking over my posts in the past.
I said I didn't have the desire because I didn't want to stay up past midnight analyzing my own meta.

This post is very much "RVS isn't helpful; we need to pressure instead". Yet, only a few posts prior, you RVS'd Ice Espeon (see below). Out of the blue, without any form of pressure, nothing. What's with that contradiction?

RVS is still important. I RVS'd IE because it can get people to talk if it they otherwise wouldn't (not like he responded anyway). If a player hasn't posted, there's not really anything to pressure them on.

 

[Celever]

I've said it before, but those plays are totally different. One is a bandwagon, while another is the first vote on someone. The first vote being that way is useless, but the bandwagon actually helps.

There are a number of flaws here:
1) How is bb meant to bandwagon someone without another player placing a first vote?
2) Bandwagons are the spokesperson of WIFOMing. Think about it. If a scum bandwagons on town and they get lynched, scum wins out. If a scum bandwagons on scum and they get lynched, scum wins town cred.
3) Though the bandwagon is in RVS, it's actually IMO more important for everyone to feel the effects of RVS rather than just a few people more strongly.
4) It's important not to make your opinions sound like facts. It's scummy and it seems like you're trying to lead a bit too hard.

Point 4 is a major mindset shift I've seen this game. There was a bit of it in the last game's postgame too, but whenever you've played as town, it simply hasn't been the case. Beyond that, it's weird that you're picking apart every single post now and that you haven't done it before. Because uh, that's how I play scum. It's actually my biggest scumtell. And the reason why it's a scumtell in general is because you get more paranoid as scum, and therefore have to make sure there aren't hidden messages in the posts of your other players where they suspect you. And also the lust for control over the game, which is consolidated by your incredibly opinionated tone.

This is also why I included the idea that you're acting like you describe your town play as. You've talked about the importance of RVS for ages, but you've always seemed a little too insecure to go all-out with it. In this game, you are going all-out. This shift is because you know who's scum and who isn't, and your RVS pushes are for a purpose -- I'm sure of it.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Misread when I was leaving, so I've got time for one more post (albeit rushed):

There are a number of flaws here:
1) How is bb meant to bandwagon someone without another player placing a first vote?
2) Bandwagons are the spokesperson of WIFOMing. Think about it. If a scum bandwagons on town and they get lynched, scum wins out. If a scum bandwagons on scum and they get lynched, scum wins town cred.
3) Though the bandwagon is in RVS, it's actually IMO more important for everyone to feel the effects of RVS rather than just a few people more strongly.

I don't think you get it. bb RVS'd without saying anything. If you do that without it being a bandwagon, it's almost fully useless. If you do that while being a bandwagon, it's useful.

There was a bit of it in the last game's postgame too, but whenever you've played as town, it simply hasn't been the case.

You said it yourself why your point is useless.

You've talked about the importance of RVS for ages, but you've always seemed a little too insecure to go all-out with it.

Couldn't there have been other reasons for this playstyle shift? There's been 3 months since I last participated in RVS. A lot can happen in 3 months.

 

[Lorde]

scattered is right. You totally misread the case, @Lord o da rings.

Lorde p much summed up my thoughts, so I saw it as unnecessary.

What?

This entire post seemed overly aggressive.

Yes, I'm aggressive. Nothing new.

There's no commitment in this post. He says I'm dodging questions in a shady manner, but doesn't consider it a scum tell. IIRC, he tends shady and scummy fairly interchangeably, which means that what he's saying amounts to nothing. He's adding some fuel to the fire, but when I flip, he'll use the other part of this statement.

I mean I wouldn't really know, seeing as he subbed in D2 last game and wasn't around for RVS last season, but if this is normal for him than I'll probably let it go.

2-3 votes aren't very many. As a townie, the vote is your weapon. Why don't you want to use it?
Besides, if somebody hammered me on IRL Day 2, it would probably be a good thing, as that player is very likely to be scum.

Only this isn't the normal 8-9 majority game, this is 7. Because of this I will hold back a vote, even on D1.

I'm trying to play more aggressively than in the past. It's just RVS that I'm always aggressive at. As for why I quoted that, I interpreted lorde's post as saying "You're never aggressive in RVS.".

If you interpreted that as misread then you're wrong. I was just saying you're more aggressive here than in most games.

I am scumhunting. Your logic did not (and still does not) make sense and could be a scumtell. You say that we could policy lynch players like HW for lurking Day 1. That's a terrible lynch, since HW contributes well beyond Day 1. Hence why your logic is weird.
I agree and disagree. I agree with not lynching Hauned, but disagree that policy lynching is bad. Policy lynching isn't bad when we have A) No real scumreads, and B) A player who will only make it easier for scum later. Haunted is not that player, but we all remember when rainy was that player, and policy lynching him became a thing.

You said "I don't have the time", which is cool (I get that), but you also say that you "don't have the desire". This is weird, and shouldn't have anything to do with you expecting to talk to Luis, hence why I theorised that you were either frustrated (neutral) or that it's something of a cop out (scummy). What Celever brought up here about you should being able to say something off the top of your head is very true considering what you said prior. Celever's question about the difference between last time you played aggressively shouldn't have been difficult to answer, and this thing about more/less later didn't even tie to that. Again, you responded to Celever's question as mentioned with "you're too busy/don't have the desire", and somewhat abruptly too. It shouldn't have been too difficult to right up a sentence or two, especially considering you did that anyway - noone was asking you to go back an analyse your meta.

Townies can hammer people by mistake. It happens.

It does, but NP's point is valid. Hammerers have a higher chance of being scum, and they use some sort of bad reasoning behind it. See TSM (Superheroes), me (Dazzling Star), this is decent logic.

This post is very much "RVS isn't helpful; we need to pressure instead". Yet, only a few posts prior, you RVS'd Ice Espeon (see below). Out of the blue, without any form of pressure, nothing. What's with that contradiction?

He's already contradicted himself multiple times throughout the day, and it indeed isn't like him either. However @Ice Espeon from what I've seen you're the only player yet to say anything, despite a vote on you. Thoughts, if any?

RVS is still important. I RVS'd IE because it can get people to talk if it they otherwise wouldn't (not like he responded anyway). If a player hasn't posted, there's not really anything to pressure them on.

As evidenced by Haunted you don't need votes with everyone. Rather casting suspicion on a player will work just as well in most cases.

 

[Lorde]

And as usual that quoted wrong.

 

[Celever]

What?

You misunderstood the case but responded to bb decently.

 

[Celever]

I don't think you get it. bb RVS'd without saying anything. If you do that without it being a bandwagon, it's almost fully useless. If you do that while being a bandwagon, it's useful.

1) Why did you cut point 4 out of the post and not respond to it at all? Not responding is a mistake, cutting it out is intentional.
2) This is like me evaluating the flaws in a spade, and then you saying that my points are flawed because the spade is actually yellow. There isn't a single post in RVS with legitimate reasoning -- that's why it's the Random Voting Stage. Therefore, whether the post has words in it or not is inconsequential as anything.

You said it yourself why your point is useless.

You mean the point that you're trying to play like how you say you play as you town rather than your traditional town meta is useless because you described how you play as town in the last postgame? Huh. I don't follow.

Couldn't there have been other reasons for this playstyle shift? There's been 3 months since I last participated in RVS. A lot can happen in 3 months.

There could. The issue is that your play this game helps town less than your traditional RVS play. Therefore I don't think it's anything but.

Make a better case NP. It'll give us a nice interpersonal read for when you flip scum.

 

[mirdo]

@Professor Palutena @mirdo I saw both of you earlier yet neither of you have posted recently. What's up with that?

I'm busy dying from the heat and also working. Oh also losing my wallet today. So enjoy some of the posts that stood out to me and some witty comments.

I think your being a little hasty. While he might've been the last to like the confirmation post, how does it apparently clearly make him scum? I'm not sure I understand.

Sarkasm is a hard language

lol this is the weirdest RVS ever

VOTE: bbninjas

Because I was right about you last game.

Sure. why not.

/in as sub

ohno

Both hosting a game and reading the first couple of days in the mafia tournament.
Hosting a game let me see a lot about how nothing gets done without pressure starting early. You only got out of RVS because of your weak lead on Jesi, which just lead to more weak leads and a last minute lynch.
In the mafia tournament, they didn't even consider RVS worth it. That showed me how much we should strive to get out of RVS and find a lead. Pressuring people helps find one.

This does make sense. And I dunno if im making a misstake by saying that but i would give NP a pass here. Also he is one of the more usefull players in the game. I would like to avoid a lynch like me last game where a highly contributing player goes out because of bs. Granted his beginning play was shady. But i don't have enough evidence to push a lynch against him cause he is also usefull.

OK. And this is different to the last time you played aggressively in what way?

Considering you said you always play aggressively.

I don't have the time, nor the desire, to examine my own meta. I know what I've tried to do more of. To see what I did in the past, just look at the opposite of what I said.

If you know already it shouldn't take any time or desire. Last game you talked continuously about the importance of discussion. Don't try to stop it without giving a real answer please. ^w^

I'm talking to Luis about CaC any time now. I don't want to start looking and not have time to finish. When I'm done with that, I'll look through past games.

Why do you need to look through past games? I thought you already knew.

JUST KISS ALREADY. Also "It's so fluffy I'm gonna die.
I wouldn't put it past Cel and NP to be Scumbuddys and doing this as a distraction. Considering how experienced and sh*t they are. Just Sayin.

NP's hypocrisy is important to remember. bb made the same play as others had made, which NP then swiftly labelled as "bad", yet NP said it was "good" when bb did so. 'Tis an interesting interaction.

Got a point.

HW takes a similar stance as other known players like Reinforce and Athena, which is to skip D1 and let the other players do the hard work for them. It's not fun, it's dirty play, but it is not indicative of any alignment. Unless it's something new for that player to do. I was also annoyed by that, but this is how the meta works. One thing I can say, is that I will gladly lynch such a player in the event there is no other option, but in this case , 1. we still have time 2. there is another option (NP).

I dunno if that should be a thing we should be doing. Sure not lynching D1 is a bit of a weird / scummy thing to suggest.

My conclusion is that i don't have a conclusion. This game is a mess,

In my opionon we should look to get a rid of inactives (which would be me aswell. Whoops)
Because all that contribute seem kinda town to me.
And so far i haven't seen to much by Jade. Ice Espeon and RainyMan.

But eh my brain is mush. See you tomorrow when somebody picked this thread apart and spun the gun in my direction o/