Finished Mafia XXXVI: Werewolves of the Interspectaculars ~ Game Over! Congratulations, Interspectaculars!

[simsands]

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: King Xerneas

Yes I was sure of Jabber at the time, it all made sense with his claim and the safe-claim list, and just his overall behavior.

But you voted him before most of this was publicly known.

But I'm not blind, PMJ makes a very solid case on Jabber's defense. If he was scum it wouldn't make sense to have him just wait it out until his lynch. I asked PMJ some questions and with his response to me and his response to SM I was sold. It's not scummy to change your mind after days have passed and posts have been made. Also why do you think changing your mind is so scummy?

The reasoning behind your post makes it sound like you've really thought this through. Like, that you've considered if removing your vote would be seen as scummy backpedaling, and came to the conclusion that no, backpedaling isn't scummy, so you should be able to do it without being called out for it.

There is also another thing that I've been curious about. You were going on and on about not voting someone until you're sure that they're scum during day 1. You kept going with this until the very end of the day, not voting anyone. This is all fine and dandy, but then as soon as day 2 starts, you're dead sure that he's scum and votes him straight off? I was at first thinking that you might have seered him as scum, but your unvote just now proves that this isn't the case. Now, I am more tempted to believe that you simply didn't want to draw the suspicion you would have gotten, had you voted him. First of all, you would probably have been called out for OMGUS if you voted him. Then, say that he flipped town, you might have gotten even more suspicion, joining a town wagon that late in the day.

 

[King Xerneas]

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: King Xerneas



But you voted him before most of this was publicly known.

That's why I said overall behavior. The safe claim list only made me more than sure he would flip scum at the time.

The reasoning behind your post makes it sound like you've really thought this through. Like, that you've considered if removing your vote would be seen as scummy backpedaling, and came to the conclusion that no, backpedaling isn't scummy, so you should be able to do it without being called out for it.

There is also another thing that I've been curious about. You were going on and on about not voting someone until you're sure that they're scum during day 1. You kept going with this until the very end of the day, not voting anyone. This is all fine and dandy, but then as soon as day 2 starts, you're dead sure that he's scum and votes him straight off? I was at first thinking that you might have seered him as scum, but your unvote just now proves that this isn't the case. Now, I am more tempted to believe that you simply didn't want to draw the suspicion you would have gotten, had you voted him. First of all, you would probably have been called out for OMGUS if you voted him. Then, say that he flipped town, you might have gotten even more suspicion, joining a town wagon that late in the day.

You're ignoring the fact that the end of day 1 a Jabber lynch was going to happen, and would've happened if we didn't run out of time. When D2 started I simply continued where I left off, or well what I was leading up to. This will probably come back and bite me in the future, but the sole reason I didn't vote Jabber D1 was that I had a vote weight of 0. I knew my vote wouldn't do anything so I didn't bother.

 

[Scattered mind]

You were for Jabber's lynch and seemed pretty confident that he would flip scum before PMJ defended him...

Double got to it before I did, but he's right. It seems like you joined a bandwagon simply because it looked like it was taking off. Now that it's fallen flat you turn your back.

Why? PMJ's points, after my post calling him out for not giving explanation, were very good. This is not someone unvoting for nothing.
@simsands - Yeah, sure, he said he is waiting to vote until he is confident, but you can never be THAT confident to the extant of ignoring valid points against a case.

You were for Jabber's lynch and seemed pretty confident that he would flip scum before PMJ defended him...

Yes I was sure of Jabber at the time, it all made sense with his claim and the safe-claim list, and just his overall behavior.

But you voted him before most of this was publicly known.

-DOS says KX were for Jabber's lynch before PMJ defended him (only recently and way after my post about the list)
- KX respond to that saying that he was for the Jabber lynch because of the list+claim and the overall behavior.
-Simsands responds - "but you voted him before most of this was publicly known"

DOS wasn't referring to KX' voting, but his general stand on Jabber's lynch before PMJ's defense. That is a major twist of words.

##UNVOTE

 

[simsands]

This will probably come back and bite me in the future, but the sole reason I didn't vote Jabber D1 was that I had a vote weight of 0. I knew my vote wouldn't do anything so I didn't bother.

Oh, you're right. There was someone voting NP at the first vote count who didn't have any vote weight, and you were one of the people voting him. This is actually a very valid reason not to vote him D1, and kind of makes my main point void, so..

##UNVOTE

 

[bbninjas]

Okay, this is really interesting. Here's my thoughts:

PMJ coming out of the blue with a strong defense and a case would normally feel odd to me, but he did say he was sick or busy or something, so it explains why this didn't come sooner. Anyways, his defense of Jabberwock brings up good observations and points. That said some are a bit WIFOMy, so I would like to address them:

The fact that Jabberwock has sat at L-4 or L-3 or whatever for literally all of day two with no one but Reinforce coming to his defense is pretty good circumstantial evidence that Jabberwock is town. If Jabberwock really was scum, there would be more people trying to stop him from being lynched.

I agree with Keeper's response to this. A lot of scum, especially those who do not know what they are doing, do not like to stick their head out early on, even for their buddy. This seems especially likely if the scum team is full of new scum inactive players, which is possible. HOWEVER, this evidence for Jabberwock's innocence is definitely worth pondering especially in light of Reinforce's mysterious claim.

- Benjamin Cloviet is canonically good (yes I'm going there), and as this is Jesi's first game I don't believe she would make him a safe claim.

Yes, I think going 'there' is a bad idea, especially considering Jesi has had TGK and Celever help her make the game.​

But in general I do agree with where PMJ is coming from.

FOS at scattered mind for this post attacking PMJ. It seems very quick to bite. On top of that, reasoning is poor. Saying a lynch is horrible is pretty neutral until the alignment of the lynchee is known. Townies say it often (at least I do) when they strongly read someone town. PMJ has been against the Jabberwock lynch since its early stages (iirc), so this certainly isn't last-second cred. [Future Reference]

PMJ is right that if Jabber was scum he wouldn't have sat so close to being lynched for as long as he has, among other points as well.

##unvote

Although the suspicion on him appears to be resolved now, I'm going to drop my thoughts. This post of King X's is fine... players are allowed to change their mind (and PMJ's post makes sense). The fact that people jump at this irritates me, since it encourages the apathetic town mindset that contributed to town's loss in PMJ's game.

Now to Professor Palutena. I'm wary that the first part of the case appears to be a lot of "you should know better", which of course is fragile territory. I don't think that's all too telling*, but rather this observation is (particularly the bolded):

*In fact, I agree with Professor P in regards to having a vote in play most of the time. I would add a "unless you're actively scumhunting" on the end of that, though. I think that for those not bothered to actively scumhunt or comment on things, then the vote (and explanation) is vital in showing a player's stance on things for reads both then and later on. Votes are power, and as a result information, as scum might say something is scummy... but if they don't vote then it means nothing. [Disclaimer: This is just my two cents. I'm not interested in taking this discussion further in this game as it distracts from the main focus of scum-hunting.]

So you think that no one is scummier than the "barely scummy" Jabberwock? Everyone else in this game ranks so low on your scum radar that you're happy with lynching someone who is almost certainly town? I don't buy it. You're auto-piloting again. The fact that Jabber is already in the lead and your vote is already conveniently parked on him means you can just say "yeah he's the best choice" and watch the town do nothing as he gets strung up.

I hadn't noticed it before, but this auto-piloting observation is actually very true. Last game, I found Professor P a bit scummy, but I couldn't put my finger on it. But PMJ just hit the nail on its head. I just checked his three posts, and the first is standard neutral PP behaviour and the second shows that autopiloting. The third is passionate arguing of game theory (which is neutral) with only a small comment on Jabberwock (more autopiloting.

There is also this FOS on quaking (see the bottom of the post) that is certainly still relevant, perhaps even more so now.

##UNVOTE: Jabberwock ##VOTE: Professor Palutena

Jabberwock should be looked into again at a later date when there is more information available imo.

 

[King Xerneas]

Hey hosts what would happen in the event of a tie?

 

[Scattered mind]

##VOTE: Professor Palutena

 

[simsands]

##VOTE: Professor Palutena

Reasoning?

 

[Scattered mind]

I already had noted some scummy things Quaking did. Including the twistings of Jabber's words. Points that were made on PP are legit. A very good info from PP lynch can be obtained about Jabber, which is a shaky option ,especially after PMJ's post.

 

[PMJ]

A lot of scum, especially those who do not know what they are doing, do not like to stick their head out early on, even for their buddy. This seems especially likely if the scum team is full of new scum inactive players, which is possible.

Technically possible, yes, but highly, highly improbable. I'm pretty sure everyone in this game has been scum at least once, or enough that it's not really possible that the entire scum team is all new scum.

Yes, I think going 'there' is a bad idea, especially considering Jesi has had TGK and Celever help her make the game.

We'll see, but I'm going to assume that she's doing things by the books until I have reason to believe she isn't.

 

[VinculumStellarum]

Hey hosts what would happen in the event of a tie?

There would be no lynch.

In addition to this, due to PokéBeach going down for some time, Day 2 will be extended to end tomorrow at noon PST.

 

[double o squirtle]

Why? PMJ's points, after my post calling him out for not giving explanation, were very good. This is not someone unvoting for nothing.

Also why do you think changing your mind is so scummy?

I just think it's strange that after being for his lynch and then after someone presents a good case you change your mind on it and basically say "Your right, I'm not going to vote him any more" I mean, that's fine, sure, but I find it unlikely that you don't disagree with at least one of the points. It seems like you just jumped off the wagon because it wasn't going anywhere and are trying to smooth it over by agreeing with it.

 

[King Xerneas]

I just think it's strange that after being for his lynch and then after someone presents a good case you change your mind on it and basically say "Your right, I'm not going to vote him any more"

Ignoring PMJ's solid defense is just being naive and ignorant. You can't deny the facts that are presented.

I find it unlikely that you don't disagree with at least one of the points.

Of course I'd disagree with at least one point, but it's irrelevant when the rest of the case is very solid. You don't just shoot down a good case if you don't like one minor point, if everything else adds up, that's what counts.

 

[PMJ]

You don't just shoot down a good case if you don't like one minor point, if everything else adds up, that's what counts.

You should always voice your concerns with a case, especially one that's gaining steam.

 

[King Xerneas]

You should always voice your concerns with a case, especially one that's gaining steam.

Of course but if the problem was bringing up canonicity (which could go either way) then it's not THAT big of an issue.

 

[VinculumStellarum]

Day 2 Vote Count (as of post #335)

Jabberwock: 1 (Professor Palutena, simsands, King Xerneas, bbninjas)
GM Draclord: 0 (Reinforce)
Professor Palutena: 4 (PMJ, bbninjas, scattered mind)
PMJ: 0 (scattered mind)
King Xerneas: 0 (simsands)

Majority is eight to lynch. Day 2 ends on Wednesday, August 10, at noon PST. That's 24 hours from now.

 

[simsands]

Day 2 Vote Count (as of post #335)

Jabberwock: 1 (Professor Palutena, simsands, King Xerneas, bbninjas)
GM Draclord: 0 (Reinforce)
Professor Palutena: 4 (PMJ, bbninjas, scattered mind)
PMJ: 0 (scattered mind)
King Xerneas: 0 (simsands)

Majority is eight to lynch. Day 2 ends on Wednesday, August 10, at noon PST. That's 24 hours from now.

I don't think my vote should be on Jabber.

 

[VinculumStellarum]

Oh, that's one of the things I missed. My bad.

 

[Jabberwock]

I'm ba-ack!

Skimmed through the last few pages; am I correct in understanding all of the following?

• PP is scummy and is the leading lynch for twisting words and playing in "autopilot", which I'm taking to mean that he's doing everything the safe way.
• KX is scummy because he's continuing to push the easy lynch and is generally pretty flippy.
• PMJ is scummy because he's defending me...?

 

[Scattered mind]

KX is scummy because he's continuing to push the easy lynch and is generally pretty flippy.

No. He unvoted you. How did you get such impression?

PMJ is scummy because he's defending me...?

No. It was because he did not give any explanation when he said that you are a bad option for a lynch. He did gave reasons eventually, and among these reasons was one reason that no one else thought about. (the fact that no one attempted to suggest another lynch option other than you for a long time since the day has started).

PP is scummy and is the leading lynch for twisting words and playing in "autopilot", which I'm taking to mean that he's doing everything the safe way.

You can also add the fact that Quaking was uncharacteristically inactive, and twisted your words at one point to put FOS on you.