PokeBeach's Official 5th Gen Ban List

RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

PMJ said:
Do you think Thundurus and Excadrill _aren't_ uber? We didn't follow their bans because we want to follow them, we banned them because they're freakin' uber. Not that they should have banned it in the first place, but hax items are allowed here and not smogon (though to be fair we did ban them alongside smogon).
Click to expand...

I never once said that they weren't uber. It just doesn't look smart when we decide to create our own voting system when there's a ban not everyone agrees with. We did nothing about the Thundurus and Excadrill ban until smogon confirmed it, and then we banned almost immediately afterward. Countering Dexoys-S requires some smart thinking, and this is done by what it switches into. The fact that it can take down two huge threats (Tyranitar, Scizor) with alternate movesets doesn't make it Uber, at least in my opinion. I'm not really disputing the fact that it's Uber or not, I'm just asking if we want to run by our own tiers, or just use Smogon as a standard. I've seen many people saying that we'll be creating our own tiers eventually, but I don't think it's happened yet, or will ever happen.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Deoxys-S is a different case to your typical surprise lure, though. The punishment for losing your primary Deoxys-S counter is a lot greater. Not only have you lost your main method killing it, but now Deoxys-S is free to do its job of setting up hazards. After this job is completed, you are at an unreasonable disadvantage. Deoxys-S will almost always complete its task of setting up hazards or screens, and when this happens, you're going to have to play around a very heavy bombardment of attacks. I will also say that Deoxys-S does not need to function anything like a suicide lead. Its enormous Speed stat allows for full EV investment into defences, making it a lot bulkier than its stat spread suggests and allowing it to come in multiple times throughout the match and impart even more momentum to the user's team.

That is absurdly good support. You can kill Deoxys-S for sure. But killing the Dragonite or Volcarona on the other side of that is a different story.

Unpredictability in and of itself is not an argument for being uber. But rather, it's whether that unpredictability imposes a heavy punishment on the opponent for guessing wrong. I believe Deoxys-S clearly demonstrates this, so while I consider it a borderline case, I have no problem with it being uber.

I have a lot to say about the possibilities or otherwise of PokeBeach starting its own tier list, I'll post on that when I'm not busy!

Starboard Driger said:
Then again, it could just light speed curbstomp you, prisoner style, simple as that. I mean, when it says "IMMA VIOLATE YOU", the manliest thing you can say at that point is "...for how long?"
Click to expand...

rofl
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Since it is not allowed in the Gym Challenge, I am adding Deoxys-S to the general banned list and removing weather as suspect. We do need a solid method of determining if we are to ban something, though.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Daft Punk said:
Countering Dexoys-S requires some smart thinking, and this is done by what it switches into. The fact that it can take down two huge threats (Tyranitar, Scizor) with alternate movesets doesn't make it Uber, at least in my opinion
Click to expand...

We're not banning simply on the fact that it can take down two huge threats. If we were, we'd be banning everything withing the Top 50 Most used pokemon. And then some. We're banning it first, because of unpredictability. As stated multiple times. Switch in special counter thinking it's offensive, and then it proceeds to set up Light Screen. Or vice versa. Not only but first because of unpredictability. Second, as PMJ has stated, if you looked up "Support Category Uber" in the dictionary, you'd find the word "Deoxys-S" written there. Base 180 Speed gurantees it gets up at least 1 screen or 1 Hazard. If you don't OHO it, it gets up Both screens or 2 Hazards. Hazards, I do not believe are the main reason we are banning it however. Rapid Spin deals with it effectively enough. IT's teh fact that it can gurantee to get up 1 screen before taking a hit. Because of this, it gets boosted defenses before you can even touch it, effectively guranteeing it gets both screens and Stealth Rock up minimum barring a critical hit before dying. It's not Deoxys we're worried about. IT's the 5 Nasty Plotters/Swords Dancers that are now hiding behind Reflect and Light Screen that we are. You've got 4 Turns before the first screen dies. (8 with light clay, 3 for set up, 1 for the proper boosting move.) That's probably 3 or 4 of your pokemon dead. If you want to take on a team 5-2, with your main Physical or Special walls (if you even had any to start with) dead, be my guest. The 5 will win every time. If that's not "banned under support" then I don't know what is.

and every time I say "we" or "we're" I actually mean "they" or "they're". (still not used to not being mod anymore lolz)
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

If we want to gain new members and support a growing VG community, we want to appeal to the typical OU player. The typical OU player follows Smogon or PO's tiers. Therefor, it's in our best interest to simply follow the decisions of one of those two communities until we reach a point where we are large enough to make our own changes, and have people accept them.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

I'm a fellow competitive player that played on Smogon mostly, but also PO's official server, which is also going to vote on it very soon.

I have been playing with a Screen Deo-S Lead and a BP Utility team, taking advantage of big OU hitters that can also use Baton Pass (Scizor/Gliscor), it is an all-out offensive team that takes advantage of the benefits from Shell Smash, and pass it along throughout the game. Heatran got in the way of my +2/+2/+2 Scizor? Pass it over to Gliscor to deal with it; or may be Scor with get hit by fire? Well, a +2/+2/+2 Latios is just as scary.

The first thing is the rocks that can set up, and the rocks that can be prevented. Depending on your opponent's lead (A mirror lead is usually likely) there are plenty of options to turn the tide in your favor. Some Deoxys that I have seen have even resorted to use Magic Coat to knock back taunt.

The benefits given by Screens is too great from my opinion. With Substitute from Gliscor in play, it could seamlessly pass over to the recipient with little to no problems. With Screens up, some common neutral physical attacks just can't break it. Scizor, being the offensive juggernaut that he is can OHKO most common Scizor counters by a +2 Bug Bite. If need be, it can always break through other priority moves as well.

Although Baton Pass can be countered easily, there are plenty of strategies that Dual Screen can execute with little trouble. Dragonite, for example, can Dance up to +2, take very little damage, and proceed to sweep. If the situation is possible, Cloyster is also a good choice to deploy and carry its mission.

Between his high speed, and his ability to set up the field and turn the tide in the favor with just one move. I for one, am glad that Deoxys-S is banned. He does his job way too well.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Probably as a result of this thread, there has been some discussion on whether or not Dragonite and/or Volcarona should be banned.

What's your stance on these powerful Pokemon? Do you think that they have the right amount of power to play fair, or are they too overpowered?

Personally, I only find Volcarona to be too powerful for the metagame. Its only solid check is Terrakion (who lives a +1 HP Ground), and the rest of the counters (Dragonite, Gyarados, Heatran, etc) are dependent on which Hidden Power type it has. HP Rock variants will be able to break through Dragonite and Gyarados, while HP Ground variants absolutely rip apart Heatran once its lost its balloon.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Snorlax counters every variant of Volcarona. And it's not as though he's competitively useless either, providing the ability to spread paralysis, phaze, or just tank hits with dat special bulk.

Scarf Terrakion is a counter providing you don't miss with Stone Edge.

Unpredictable Pokemon like Volcarona require a bit of finesse to work around. It's not like Volcarona is the only Pokemon with multiple possible sets.

Also, seriously, hazards. If you are having problems keeping them on the field, pack a spin blocker. If you're that paranoid, slap a Mental Herb on your hazard setter so you can avoid Taunt. Use Magic Bounce to throw the opponent's hazards back at them (and Xatu can even provide screens and spread paralysis too).
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Dragonite I would consider the bigger threat of the two. It has the ability to run multiple sets, not just offensive ones. Each set has different Pokemon that check or counter it. If you predict it running one set and not another, you could easily lose a Pokemon or another Pokemon slapped with paralysis in the case of parashuffle Dragonite. Some Dragonite will run Fire Blast as a means to damage Skarmory better than FirePunch. This makes one of Dragonite's normally most reliable phasers not so reliable because once Dragonite is blown away the Skarmory will be very low on HP where it can easily be picked off since it isn't the speediest Pokemon around to Roost. Gliscor and Gyarados are somewhat safe, though if its the rain Dragonite Hurricane is going to inflict large damage to Gliscor. Heatran only can deal with it if it still has Air Balloom unless it is scarfed and Dragonite hasn't DD'd and has damage on it.

I feel like this is just Salamence fourth generation all over again with less SAtk, but additional bulk including a very powerful ability.
vote: Uber
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Thing is, it's more about how you play against Dragonite rather than what solid counters you have. Knowing when to set up Stealth Rock, or how to bait it into an Outrage and switch to Iron Barbs Ferrothorn, or how to sneak in a Rotom-W Volt Switch to break Multiscale, etc. Dragonite is far and away from theorymon because of how situational its ability (the only thing really making its OU status questionable) is.

If you want to beat it, get creative. Cloyster can be a great check, and Rocky Helmet Slowbro can come out on top against most versions. Mamoswine is a great Pokemon in the current metagame that can keep it in check. Choice Scarf Jirachi is a pretty nice Pokemon too. Obviously it has multiple sets but I've never really felt too pressured to directly handle anything but Lum Berry DD.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

If you go here and look at Sourbawss's comments, it's pretty much shows why dragonite, while being a prominent force in the metagame, has no reason to be banned.

vote: stay
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Also just saying that we are not actually voting on anything yet. : P
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

First off, why would we want to ban a Pokemon in a metagame where Stealth Rock is so ridiculously common, and not only that, it loses HALF its HP when tagging in? This necessitates running a spinner in the team (not sure why anyone wouldn't, though), or using Volcarona as the lead to circumvent the threat. But yeah, as people said Snorlax and Blissey will scare him out anyway.

As for Dragonite, how much does Multiscale even factor into this discussion anyway? Would we be banning Dragonite completely, or just Multiscale?
(I'm going to refrain to comment on Dragonite as I don't know that much about it)
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Generally, it's easier in terms of policy to ban an entire Pokemon as opposed to one thing that contributes to its uber status, because complex bans are really hairy. In theory every single Uber Pokemon could be OU so long as we nerfed them enough (Blaziken without Speed Boost, for example), but often there are multiple routes you can take and many of them aren't clear (What about just Blaziken without HJK?).

In the case of Dragonite, would we ban Multiscale, or Dragon Dance? Or Outrage? When is something no longer Uber? It's this controversy which causes people to lean on the side of "ban everything" for the sake of simplicity. It's a very interesting discussion though! What are people's thoughts on tiering philosophy?
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

bacon said:
Generally, it's easier in terms of policy to ban an entire Pokemon as opposed to one thing that contributes to its uber status, because complex bans are really hairy. In theory every single Uber Pokemon could be OU so long as we nerfed them enough (Blaziken without Speed Boost, for example), but often there are multiple routes you can take and many of them aren't clear (What about just Blaziken without HJK?).

In the case of Dragonite, would we ban Multiscale, or Dragon Dance? Or Outrage? When is something no longer Uber? It's this controversy which causes people to lean on the side of "ban everything" for the sake of simplicity. It's a very interesting discussion though! What are people's thoughts on tiering philosophy?
Click to expand...

I think the ambiguity that you illustrated makes it fairly obvious complex bans should be avoided at all costs. There is a reason Snover is I'm BL, and banning snow warning alone leads to too many problems that can just be solved my fully moving the Pokemon of anything makes it OP.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

bacon said:
Generally, it's easier in terms of policy to ban an entire Pokemon as opposed to one thing that contributes to its uber status, because complex bans are really hairy. In theory every single Uber Pokemon could be OU so long as we nerfed them enough (Blaziken without Speed Boost, for example), but often there are multiple routes you can take and many of them aren't clear (What about just Blaziken without HJK?).

In the case of Dragonite, would we ban Multiscale, or Dragon Dance? Or Outrage? When is something no longer Uber? It's this controversy which causes people to lean on the side of "ban everything" for the sake of simplicity. It's a very interesting discussion though! What are people's thoughts on tiering philosophy?
Click to expand...
Let me speak from a perspective where I'm trying to follow the competitive trends, but at the same time I am not quite fully immersed in it yet.

As far as the so-called "complex bans" would go, I feel like the only thing you should do that on the basis on would be Ability. Granted, it is the moves that make the Pokemon, but a lot of different movesets are possible. Most of the time, it depends on what kind of Ability you run that set with. (An example could be Dragonite; some of its sets are geared around Multiscale.)

I don't think banning certain Pokemon for using certain moves is the way to go and I think these "complex bans" should try to be avoided if possible. That said, I don't think it's too bad of an idea to just ban an ability on a Pokemon (if it has more than one and it's deemed too strong UNLESS it loses the ability; Excadrill is ridiculously broken with either of its two abilities).
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

DNA said:
Let me speak from a perspective where I'm trying to follow the competitive trends, but at the same time I am not quite fully immersed in it yet.

As far as the so-called "complex bans" would go, I feel like the only thing you should do that on the basis on would be Ability. Granted, it is the moves that make the Pokemon, but a lot of different movesets are possible. Most of the time, it depends on what kind of Ability you run that set with. (An example could be Dragonite; some of its sets are geared around Multiscale.)

I don't think banning certain Pokemon for using certain moves is the way to go and I think these "complex bans" should try to be avoided if possible. That said, I don't think it's too bad of an idea to just ban an ability on a Pokemon (if it has more than one and it's deemed too strong UNLESS it loses the ability; Excadrill is ridiculously broken with either of its two abilities).
Click to expand...

The reason Smogon avoids complex bans as heavily as it does is because it tries to stay as close to the game as possible. If you remove speed boost from blaziken and allow it with blaze, then you have to allow garchomp when rough skin gets released, etc. etc.

It causes unneeded complication and would make the metagame A LOT harder than it already is to get into. It makes a lot more sense to just fully ban pokemon if any part of them makes them unisuitable/OP for their tier.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Agreeing with Complexy. The more complex bans you introduce, the more difficult it is to understand. Going into a research lab to modify the Pokemon to make it balanced just overcomplicates things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top