XY Revised Type Chart

[Mitja]

Its not Bird type. That's pure BS.
ひこう = Flight

Making "better targets because they're in the sky" is what I was aiming for (and is probably more similar to what the actual reasoning behind Waters weakness is too). Know what makes an even better target than that? Skarmory. Because it actually attracts it like crazy instead of just "being a better target".
Being covered with Steel armor is just asking for lightning to hit you, and that's more than good enough basis for a weakness.

On one hand you're telling me we aren't supposed to imagine creatures with elemental association for these things (but the essence of a type instead), but then you immediately jump to equating the Flying type (which has NO direct relation to kinds of creatures) to birds. It's conceptually not even an element, and actually much more of a strategy if anything...

...

For any of the type chart to make sense, I've always assumed the damaging moves themselves are to be considered as the damaging elemental essence of a type, while the defending side of the chart is about the actual creatures who employ a type, while not (necessarily) being living incarnations of the mentioned essence (ie not literal fire, but creatures who heavily rely on fire).

 

[Pokequaza]

Bugs are strong over Dark types, because they are influenced by Kamen Rider, ''good'' wins over Dark (evil), just like Fighting is super-effective on Dark as well. (Fighting and Bug also resist each other for that reason).

However arguing about the logic behind the type chart is a waste of time, if you really want, everything can kill everything. It's a combination of relations that make sense (Water > Fire), and those to (attempt to) balance out the rest.

 

[jstar21]

Its not Bird type. That's pure BS.
ひこう = Flight

Making "better targets because they're in the sky" is what I was aiming for (and is probably more similar to what the actual reasoning behind Waters weakness is too). Know what makes an even better target than that? Skarmory. Because it actually attracts it like crazy instead of just "being a better target".
Being covered with Steel armor is just asking for lightning to hit you, and that's more than good enough basis for a weakness.

On one hand you're telling me we aren't supposed to imagine creatures with elemental association for these things (but the essence of a type instead), but then you immediately jump to equating the Flying type (which has NO direct relation to kinds of creatures) to birds. It's conceptually not even an element, and actually much more of a strategy if anything...

...

For any of the type chart to make sense, I've always assumed the damaging moves themselves are to be considered as the damaging elemental essence of a type, while the defending side of the chart is about the actual creatures who employ a type, while not (necessarily) being living incarnations of the mentioned essence (ie not literal fire, but creatures who heavily rely on fire).

The bird thing is what I've always been told but now I know that's wrong, but it still doesn't change my point. Flying is a tactic as you said and lightning usually comes from the sky during storms so they are far more susceptible to being hurt by lightning then others are.

But also to my point, Flying type is not Wind type so you can't associate Flying with elements such as Fire or Water or Steel, you would have to associate to creatures that fly or a person sky diving or whatever.

Now I understand where you are coming from but if we look at all pokemon as natural living creatures like us then an electric shock should be super-effective against every type because it would throw off the electric signals to their brains and shut their bodies down. So we can't look at it like that or else Poison would be super-sffective to everything as well.

 

[Mitja]

Its not Bird type. That's pure BS.
ひこう = Flight

Making "better targets because they're in the sky" is what I was aiming for (and is probably more similar to what the actual reasoning behind Waters weakness is too). Know what makes an even better target than that? Skarmory. Because it actually attracts it like crazy instead of just "being a better target".
Being covered with Steel armor is just asking for lightning to hit you, and that's more than good enough basis for a weakness.

On one hand you're telling me we aren't supposed to imagine creatures with elemental association for these things (but the essence of a type instead), but then you immediately jump to equating the Flying type (which has NO direct relation to kinds of creatures) to birds. It's conceptually not even an element, and actually much more of a strategy if anything...

...

For any of the type chart to make sense, I've always assumed the damaging moves themselves are to be considered as the damaging elemental essence of a type, while the defending side of the chart is about the actual creatures who employ a type, while not (necessarily) being living incarnations of the mentioned essence (ie not literal fire, but creatures who heavily rely on fire).

The bird thing is what I've always been told but now I know that's wrong, but it still doesn't change my point. Flying is a tactic as you said and lightning usually comes from the sky during storms so they are far more susceptible to being hurt by lightning then others are.

But also to my point, Flying type is not Wind type so you can't associate Flying with elements such as Fire or Water or Steel, you would have to associate to creatures that fly or a person sky diving or whatever.

Now I understand where you are coming from but if we look at all pokemon as natural living creatures like us then an electric shock should be super-effective against every type because it would throw off the electric signals to their brains and shut their bodies down. So we can't look at it like that or else Poison would be super-sffective to everything as well.

An electric-shock wouldn't be SE to everything. It would hurt living beings, and it does, Electric (or Poison or etc) moves in general all cause damage. weaknesses/resistances are about whether that damage is amplified or softened because of a creatures elemental association.
You have to look at neutral damage as damage, not a 0.

So Steel types already DO get harmed by Electric moves (like anything besides Ground), even though metals conduct electricity. I'm merely suggesting the degree of damage should be higher due to metals attracting it, in even moreso the reasoning that's supposedly behind this for Flying types.

 

[jstar21]

An electric-shock wouldn't be SE to everything. It would hurt living beings, and it does, Electric (or Poison or etc) moves in general all cause damage. weaknesses/resistances are about whether that damage is amplified or softened because of a creatures elemental association.
You have to look at neutral damage as damage, not a 0.

So Steel types already DO get harmed by Electric moves (like anything besides Ground), even though metals conduct electricity. I'm merely suggesting the degree of damage should be higher due to metals attracting it, in even moreso the reasoning that's supposedly behind this for Flying types.

I can understand that reasoning and honestly anyone could lean towards either direction. Now I wouldn't mind if Steel got the weakness to Electric, but since an argument can be made to disagree I say it should stay neutral, but on another topic involving Steel types...why are they weak to Fighting Type??? Now I see some of you associating Fighting with super strength but I don't agree with that, I always associated it with something that is highly skilled at physical combat which is why most fighting moves are named after combat/karate moves. If you think about it, a normal person getting into a fight with an MMA fighter is at a huge disadvantage which is why Normal if weak to Fighting, but being super effective on Steel is ridiculous.

 

[Mitja]

An electric-shock wouldn't be SE to everything. It would hurt living beings, and it does, Electric (or Poison or etc) moves in general all cause damage. weaknesses/resistances are about whether that damage is amplified or softened because of a creatures elemental association.
You have to look at neutral damage as damage, not a 0.

So Steel types already DO get harmed by Electric moves (like anything besides Ground), even though metals conduct electricity. I'm merely suggesting the degree of damage should be higher due to metals attracting it, in even moreso the reasoning that's supposedly behind this for Flying types.

I can understand that reasoning and honestly anyone could lean towards either direction. Now I wouldn't mind if Steel got the weakness to Electric, but since an argument can be made to disagree I say it should stay neutral, but on another topic involving Steel types...why are they weak to Fighting Type??? Now I see some of you associating Fighting with super strength but I don't agree with that, I always associated it with something that is highly skilled at physical combat which is why most fighting moves are named after combat/karate moves. If you think about it, a normal person getting into a fight with an MMA fighter is at a huge disadvantage which is why Normal if weak to Fighting, but being super effective on Steel is ridiculous.

Wondering the same thing.
Fighting is about martial arts, but I in terms of power of their moves, I look at them as a level higher than regular moves involving fights.
If Normal moves are lame on Steel types, Fighting would make sense to be merely neutral on Steel types, as their superior defense is negated by superior offense, instead of boosting it.

 

[jstar21]

I can understand that reasoning and honestly anyone could lean towards either direction. Now I wouldn't mind if Steel got the weakness to Electric, but since an argument can be made to disagree I say it should stay neutral, but on another topic involving Steel types...why are they weak to Fighting Type??? Now I see some of you associating Fighting with super strength but I don't agree with that, I always associated it with something that is highly skilled at physical combat which is why most fighting moves are named after combat/karate moves. If you think about it, a normal person getting into a fight with an MMA fighter is at a huge disadvantage which is why Normal if weak to Fighting, but being super effective on Steel is ridiculous.

Wondering the same thing.
Fighting is about martial arts, but I in terms of power of their moves, I look at them as a level higher than regular moves involving fights.
If Normal moves are lame on Steel types, Fighting would make sense to be merely neutral on Steel types, as their superior defense is negated by superior offense, instead of boosting it.

I agree completely!

Fighting should be neutral damage as Steel doesn't need anymore resistances and even though I don't agree with Steel being weak to Electric, I would rather have Electric be one of the weaknesses than Fighting being one. It just never made any sense.

 

[professorlight]

If you don't see how water and flying are weak to electric, I question your intelligence. Sorry, that's just me.

Water type pokemon hold high amounts of water in their bodies, in their organs. Water is a powerful conductor for electricity, so it affects them at a greater level than other types (x2).
Steel, on the other hand, manifests itself as an ability to process raw mineral and use it to build strong protective shells around their (usually organic to some degree) bodies. Electricity is easily conducted by the metal, just bypassing it when it would stop other kinds of damage and affecting what's inside it, hence neutral damage (x1).
Most flying pokemon have wings and fly, electricity shocks and paralyzes creatures (albeit temporarily). Since flying pokemon need to flap their wings according to a certain rythm to fly, what happens if said rythm is interrupted, even for a second? they fall. So electricity makes impossible for them to move freely and quickly. That, and also, birds tend to have a lower body and bone mass than walking creatures, therefore having less layers of protection to electric currents.

Sure there are exceptions to all of this (magikarp, klink, doduo come to mind), but I don't think GF will go around changing weaknesses and resistances on a case-by-case basis.

I dare you question my intelligence. The last person who did it is 6 feet under now (he works in a boiler room in a basement).

 

[AdamLambert]

Please be sure to keep this respectful.

 

[Ohman177]

Guys I'm being completely honest when I say that wasn't me. I have 3 brothers who also play Pokemon and I left my computer on when I went to play soccer. One of them did it. I'm sorry I <3 you all and we are all beautiful, intelligent creatures.

Ima beat the shiz out of them once I find out which one did it.

 

[Turtwig]

Boy I wish Grass had a huge buff. I mean, being resisted by the most and weak to the most doesn't exactly make it "balanced." Fire makes sense, and poison kind of does too. Bug is kind of iffy, and Ice ruins everything in the winter. Honestly, I'm not sure why flying is super effective--yes, birds eat grass and use it for nests and stuff, but everything eats grass. Plus, wind disperses seeds and causes them to grow (look at those little helicopter seed things). I get that nature is vulnerable, but is it really that significant to weaken a type so much? I don't know, I guess I just don't like my favorite type being so underrated and stuff Maybe it'll be resistant to fairy or something. Come on Game Freak, give us something to work with!

---

Pokemon types tend to have at least a bit of theoretical logic to them. Water puts out fires, fire burns grass, grass absorbs water, etc. (It can also be said that fire evaporates water and too much water kills grass, but I'm not sure if grass can hinder fire in any way.)

Technically too much grass can smother a fire and put it out. Camping experiences.

 

[jstar21]

Now I see some of you associating Fighting with super strength but I don't agree with that, I always associated it with something that is highly skilled at physical combat which is why most fighting moves are named after combat/karate moves.

Superpower

That is all.

That's silly! Your basis for Fighting types solely being about super strength is the name of one attack when over 90% of their moves are all karate attacks. That would be like saying Fighting types represent vacuums: Vacuum Wave! That is all.

[private] link removed from quote *Drohn [/private]

 

[Ohman177]

I can see why bug is strong against grass because most bugs eat grass irl. For flying and grass, I think flying should just resist it, but not be strong against it. Sure, grass types can't reach anything that's flying up high, so they should barely do any damage. This goes off the same logic as ground, just not as extreme since ineffective is too much. But flying should not be strong against grass cause I don't see where that fits in. Maybe cause things like tornadoes can destroy land and rip up trees and stuff?

 

[Turtwig]

I can see why bug is strong against grass because most bugs eat grass irl. For flying and grass, I think flying should just resist it, but not be strong against it. Sure, grass types can't reach anything that's flying up high, so they should barely do any damage. This goes off the same logic as ground, just not as extreme since ineffective is too much. But flying should not be strong against grass cause I don't see where that fits in.

Well tons of things eat grass. Tauros are based on bulls, and they eat grass. Tauros doesn't have a resistance nor does it have Sap Sipper. That's why I'm iffy on bugs. I can see Flying as a resistance, but I don't like how they just add on to grass' weaknesses repeatedly.

Maybe cause things like tornadoes can destroy land and rip up trees and stuff?

Well that's like saying that wind can weather down rock, but rock resists flying types. Wind also can cause erosion, although rainwater does this a lot more, yet it isn't really super effective against ground (although it does have immunity). I don't know, I guess I'm tired of calling grass the weakest of the elemental types weakness-wise. You do raise a good point though.

 

[Metalizard]

Superpower

That is all.

That's silly! Your basis for Fighting types solely being about super strength is the name of one attack when over 90% of their moves are all karate attacks. That would be like saying Fighting types represent vacuums: Vacuum Wave! That is all.

Lol, I'm not basing my reason on one attack's name. Read the attack description. But I'm just giving an example anyway. Do you want another? Bulk Up... Also, Vacuum Wave is based on a fighting technique...

Whether you agree or not, Fighting-types are supposed to have superior physical strength, so they can pull up all those fighting techniques you're mentioning effectively... It's just like how Psychic-types are supposed to have superior intellect to use mind-based attacks naturally...

Of course, that doesn't mean pokémon of other types can't use Fighting or Psychic attacks or they're not strong physically or mentally... And that doesn't mean all Fighting-types or Psychic-types are based around those concepts but those are the main premises of those types.

That's not to say that Fighting doesn't also focuses on fighting techniques. But there's also more to it than those 2 things. Fighting is also based on the concepts of heroism, justice and bravery. Best example: The musketeers quartet...

Also, the attacks aren't all based on karate moves but I'm not gonna discuss technical details...

 

[Metalizard]

That's silly! Your basis for Fighting types solely being about super strength is the name of one attack when over 90% of their moves are all karate attacks. That would be like saying Fighting types represent vacuums: Vacuum Wave! That is all.

Lol, I'm not basing my reason on one attack's name. Read the attack description. But I'm just giving an example anyway. Do you want another? Bulk Up... Also, Vacuum Wave is based on a fighting technique.

Whether you agree or not, Fighting-types are supposed to have superior physical strength, so they can pull up all those fighting techniques you're mentioning effectively... It's just like how Psychic-types are supposed to have superior intellect to use mind-based attacks naturally...

Of course, that doesn't mean pokémon of other types can't use Fighting or Psychic attacks or they're not strong physically or mentally... And that doesn't mean all Fighting-types or Psychic-types are based around those concepts but those are the main premises of those types.

That's not to say that Fighting doesn't also focuses on fighting techniques. But there's also more to it than those 2 things. Fighting is also based on the concept of heroism, justice and bravery. Best example: The musketeers quartet...

Also, the attacks aren't all based on karate moves but I'm not gonna discuss technical details...

 

[J.D.]

Hence Rock-types resistance to Fire, but that doesn't explain how Rock-types are offensively superior.

I'd assume being able to contain something and put it out would make you strong against it.

Containing something isn't the same as defeating it. Even when contained by a circle of rocks, the fire would continue to burn, only stopping once its fuel is depleted.

Really, most anything can be used to put out a fire, the question is, is the method practical?
Water? Used frequently in the extinguishing of fires.
Ground? Best alternative to using water, especially against a camp fire.
Rock? ...unless you've got a lot of them and the strength to move them all at once, tossing rocks on a fire is hardly a practical means of supressing one, especially compared to the likely available alternatives.

On the topic of other types...

I can understand the logic of the Poison being superior to Water theory, but I'd think a large body of running water would be able to remove any poison from itself eventually, hence its neutrality to Poison.

The Bugs vs Grass thing is easy; it's because plant life is frequently at the mercy of insects, and I don't just mean as food. Bugs eat plants sure, they clothe themselves with plants, they carve up and grow plants, build their homes in plants and nests out of plants, and without pollinator insects, most plants wouldn't be able to thrive. And when it comes to eating plants, few are as efficient as bugs--ever seen a locust swarm on a field?

I'd say the Flying vs Grass thing is roughly the same, considering how flying creatures make so much use out of various plants; eating berries, building nests... woodpeckers... and of course, a powerful windstorm is more than capable of destroying a tree.

 

[professorlight]

I agree that grass should have less weaknesses, make they sense or not. As you have been discussing, a lot of other types could interact in ways that are not reflected by the current matchups and are ignored in the name of making types balanced (poison->water, ice->water, water->ice, fighting=steel, fire=rock, poison->bug, etc).
Grass has too many weaknesses. I like grass types a lot, and I tire of having to retreat them any single time I'm facing a pokemon that is either flying/fire/bug/poison/ice, has moves of those types or is resistant to grass.
I'd say that the flying advantage and resistance should go, and bug should have only resistance, not advantage. Poison, fire and ice make perfect sense as strong against grass, while the reason for flying (wind during storms rips trees) is pretty extreme and shaky (applying that reasoning, almost every type is strong against almost every type). and we are forgetting that, as much as bugs take advantage of grass, they also need it to live, so they are at more equal footing, really, rather than one having dominance.

 

[Ohman177]

I can see why bug is strong against grass because most bugs eat grass irl. For flying and grass, I think flying should just resist it, but not be strong against it. Sure, grass types can't reach anything that's flying up high, so they should barely do any damage. This goes off the same logic as ground, just not as extreme since ineffective is too much. But flying should not be strong against grass cause I don't see where that fits in.

Well tons of things eat grass. Tauros are based on bulls, and they eat grass. Tauros doesn't have a resistance nor does it have Sap Sipper. That's why I'm iffy on bugs. I can see Flying as a resistance, but I don't like how they just add on to grass' weaknesses repeatedly.

Maybe cause things like tornadoes can destroy land and rip up trees and stuff?

Well that's like saying that wind can weather down rock, but rock resists flying types. Wind also can cause erosion, although rainwater does this a lot more, yet it isn't really super effective against ground (although it does have immunity). I don't know, I guess I'm tired of calling grass the weakest of the elemental types weakness-wise. You do raise a good point though.

But you see, tauros is an exception, and you can't base entire type resistances off a few special exceptions. On the other hand, you have bugs where every single one of them utilizes grass to its advantage/eats it. That's why bugs are strong against grass.

As for flying, I was simply throwing out ideas they might have used. I agree that flying should hit grass for neutral damage.

 

[Turtwig]

Grass has too many weaknesses. I like grass types a lot, and I tire of having to retreat them any single time I'm facing a pokemon that is either flying/fire/bug/poison/ice, has moves of those types or is resistant to grass.
I'd say that the flying advantage and resistance should go, and bug should have only resistance, not advantage. Poison, fire and ice make perfect sense as strong against grass, while the reason for flying (wind during storms rips trees) is pretty extreme and shaky (applying that reasoning, almost every type is strong against almost every type). and we are forgetting that, as much as bugs take advantage of grass, they also need it to live, so they are at more equal footing, really, rather than one having dominance.

Why do I agree with everything he's saying?

But seriously, the grass type overall is severely underwhelming and I hope that if there is in fact a type chart change, that it is geared towards fixing the unbalanced issues faced by the poor grass type.