Discussion Standard Meta Tier List

[Fayld]

It is time to move Passimian down to T4 where it belonged all along. It has exactly ZERO placements in any major tournament and is the definition of a fun / troll deck. It isn't competitive and all the other T3 decks are competitive. I get that people have pet decks and a lot of people enjoy this one, but facts are facts. This is the competitive forum and this thread is ranking competitive decks. Passimian is neither.

Also M Scizor needs to be moved down to T3. No one plays it and the only deck it really owns is M Gardevoir...which isn't getting played much anymore either.

Side note, it is pretty crazy what Deciplume has done to the meta.

 

[TheDude133]

Here is what I have to say about Turbo Dark. Turbo Dark isn't a combo deck. It doesn't need to see a combination of cards to work. You just want to hit your Max Elixir and that's it. The deck does get weaker when Field Blower is released though but for the most part, you get 10 energy in play and you win. Volcanion is a combo deck since you need to have at least two or more cards to work. You need to have your Volcanion, all the EX versions, ways to get energy back and something else every turn to work. Turbo Dark doesn't need these things and will always have the advantage because it doesn't need to have more cards than it needs.

This is a yes and no kind of answer. Yes, TD doesnt need as many cards as Volcanion, however, Volcanion has a lot of tools to get it to where it needs to be. It doesn't need THAT much set up, and from play testing both decks, looking at tournament reports, and looking at different builds. I honestly think they have an even match-up. Neither deck can lock the other from doing what it wants to do, so both decks can set up free'y. TD can OHKO little Volc without minimum 5 energy on board, even more if they FFB it. Volcanion can't OHKO it back consistently without burning too many resources. If anything, Volc builds that play Salamance have the edge, solely because of the lack of set-up needed vs. pay out of the card.

Sorry to change the subject, but what do you guys think about Waterbox going into SM2? I am seriously considering building it as a third deck and one that will hopefully survive rotation.

Water Box is going to be Tier 1. It has too much set-up not to be. And with great attackers in the form of Lapras and Palkia, the deck will thrive.

 

[Trixss]

Sorry to change the subject, but what do you guys think about Waterbox going into SM2? I am seriously considering building it as a third deck and one that will hopefully survive rotation.

Currently Waterbox is a solid deck to play but with the grass archetypes being hot right now it'll be rough unless you run Glaceon or something that isn't hit for weakness. It will definitely survive rotation and the deck will be much faster going into SM2 Set, you'll be able to set up a palkia turn 1 or even a Lapras turn 1.

It has a very hard time against plume if it doesnt hit the hex maniac turn 1 and they open with plume. Most Turbo Darks have ~28 items they cant use at that point, including Ultra Ball and Elixer. That as close to insta-loss as turbo dark gets.

They're pretty even match-up actually. Both decks do BASICALLLY the same thing. This match-up is very dependent on the draws. Whoever has better RNG wins.

Yes and no. Turbo dark does one thing very easy, get big numbers on board really quick. This match-up is swayed by how long the Shaymins for M-Ray are on board, and how many Max Elixer's/Exp. Share's Turbo Dark gets. 4 Energy and a Reverse Valley/FFB is an OHKO on Shaymin

I'm not accounting shaymins here
#1 Most rayquaza players know what to do with shaymins and will never let it be a target
#2 Rayquaza sets up faster than Turbo dark sure turbo can get a hit in or even knockout a shaymin but rayquaza will get the return knockout, Darkrai will pull up another darkrai with only 6-7 energies and will be left the task of getting 4 more energies without elixirs being available.

Regarding plume decks it's based strictly on the setup most decks are running Wobbuffet just to counter the turn 1 lock. The only real Plume deck you take a loss to regardless of setup is Plumebox.

 

[Fayld]

Well, I think it might be time for an update

Tier 1:
M Mewtwo EX
Turbo Darkrai
M Rayquaza EX
Darkrai Dragons
Yveltal EX
Decidueye Plume

Tier 2:
Vespiquen
Waterbox / Lapras GX
M Gardevoir Despair Ray
Volcanion EX - Even with the wins, I still think it remains T2.
Vileplume Varients / Lurantis
Rainbow Road
Greninja Break - Was still successful in SLC even with the Owls everywhere.

Tier 3:
Gyarados (borderline T2)
Tauros Giratina - T2 is premature. It needs more success before it is up there. I honestly fear Solgaleo / Lurantis more than this deck.
M Scizor EX / M Scizor EX (SUM) - It really just doesn't cut it as a T2 deck because it flat out doesn't get played.
Umbreon GX
Solgaleo/Lurantis

Tier ?:
Pidgeot EX
Espeon GX (Cant Find Decklist)
Houndoom Mill (Can't Find Decklist)
Passimian (Can't find Decklist) - Doesn't deserve to be in a top 3 tier. It has no placements whatsoever. Until it does, it is on par with Rocks N Ruffs (Lycanroc GX + Carbink Hammers)...fun deck that hits a lot of decks for weakness, but isn't truly a viable competitive deck.

Feel free to disagree with me, but I think the list I just did is pretty reflective of the current meta.

 

[Trixss]

Well, I think it might be time for an update

Tier 1:
M Mewtwo EX
Turbo Darkrai
M Rayquaza EX
Darkrai Dragons
Yveltal EX
Decidueye Plume

Tier 2:
Vespiquen
Waterbox / Lapras GX
M Gardevoir Despair Ray
Volcanion EX - Even with the wins, I still think it remains T2.
Vileplume Varients / Lurantis
Rainbow Road
Greninja Break - Was still successful in SLC even with the Owls everywhere.

Tier 3:
Gyarados (borderline T2)
Tauros Giratina - T2 is premature. It needs more success before it is up there. I honestly fear Solgaleo / Lurantis more than this deck.
M Scizor EX / M Scizor EX (SUM) - It really just doesn't cut it as a T2 deck because it flat out doesn't get played.
Umbreon GX
Solgaleo/Lurantis

Tier ?:
Pidgeot EX
Espeon GX (Cant Find Decklist)
Houndoom Mill (Can't Find Decklist)
Passimian (Can't find Decklist) - Doesn't deserve to be in a top 3 tier. It has no placements whatsoever. Until it does, it is on par with Rocks N Ruffs (Lycanroc GX + Carbink Hammers)...fun deck that hits a lot of decks for weakness, but isn't truly a viable competitive deck.

Feel free to disagree with me, but I think the list I just did is pretty reflective of the current meta.

I agree with everything except the Scizor, Yes Scizor doesn't see much play or top anything but the decks it has to go against nearly have no affect on Scizor except for volcanion and turbo dark.

I was planning on doing an update on the 22nd which will include 3 more decks (Working on the last deck),I have been busy recently so that's the reason I haven't updated this list. The list will be updated on April 22nd (Pre-release week Hype) and depending on how our pulls go May 14th (1 Week after Guardians Rising Release and results from Virginia Regional).

 

[cardgjammer]

I found an espeon-gx deck idea:

However, please note that, due to the Decidueye/Plume/Sableye combo that will be prominent by post-Guardians, no choice but to cut 1 off each side of the 3-3 Espeon-GX line to make room for Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF), so changes in italics followed by explanation...

Thanks to Pokemon TCG Center for the list. Here is the Youtube video that the following deck is based on:

Pokemon: 16
2-2 Espeon-GX(2-2 is enough to combat proponents of item and supporter lock such as vileplume and Sableye(GDR) (well, maybe not Sableye, due to the fact it's put on by attack, not ability) by making room for a counter that shuts them off such as Wobbuffet and Bide Barricade in a way that 3-3, as on the original list, takes up too much space for that)
2 Shaymin-EX
3-3 M Alakazam-EX
1 Hoopa(STS)
1 Hoopa-EX
2 Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF)(for blocking Decidueye/Plume)

Trainers: 33
2 Devolution Spray
2 Escape Rope
2 Mega Turbo
1 Super Rod
4 Trainers' Mail
4 VS Seeker
4 Ultra Ball
2 Sky Field
1 Delinquent
1 Hex Maniac(On original list, but keeping it on my list because Wobb alone won't cut it vs. psychic ability pokemon like Lunala, Toxapex, etc.)
1 Lysandre
2 N
4 Sycamore
3 Alakazam Spirit Link



Energy: 11
7 Psychic
4 Double Colorless

^ What do you think about my find? Does that help you in terms of tier placement?

 

[Fayld]

I found an espeon-gx deck idea:

However, please note that, due to the Decidueye/Plume/Sableye combo that will be prominent by post-Guardians, no choice but to cut 1 off each side of the 3-3 Espeon-GX line to make room for Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF), so changes in italics followed by explanation...

Thanks to Pokemon TCG Center for the list. Here is the Youtube video that the following deck is based on:

Pokemon: 16
2-2 Espeon-GX(2-2 is enough to combat proponents of item and supporter lock such as vileplume and Sableye(GDR) by making room for a counter that shuts them off such as Wobbuffet and Bide Barricade in a way that 3-3 takes up too much space for that)
2 Shaymin-EX
3-3 M Alakazam-EX
1 Hoopa(STS)
1 Hoopa-EX
2 Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF)

Trainers: 33
2 Devolution Spray
2 Escape Rope
2 Mega Turbo
1 Super Rod
4 Trainers' Mail
4 VS Seeker
4 Ultra Ball
2 Sky Field
1 Delinquent
1 Hex Maniac(On original list, but keeping it on my list because Wobb alone won't cut it vs. psychic ability pokemon like Lunala, Toxapex, etc.)
1 Lysandre
2 N
4 Sycamore
3 Alakazam Spirit Link



Energy: 11
7 Psychic
4 Double Colorless

^ What do you think about my find? Does that help you in terms of tier placement?

I think this looks like an Alakazam deck with Espeon support rather than an actual Espeon deck. I think this looks pretty clunky and I would be pretty surprised if it is competitive. The only Espeon deck I have seen that is competitive is this one. I am guessing that is the one that is being referenced

 

[Elray]

It is time to move Passimian down to T4 where it belonged all along. It has exactly ZERO placements in any major tournament and is the definition of a fun / troll deck. It isn't competitive and all the other T3 decks are competitive. I get that people have pet decks and a lot of people enjoy this one, but facts are facts. This is the competitive forum and this thread is ranking competitive decks. Passimian is neither.

Also M Scizor needs to be moved down to T3. No one plays it and the only deck it really owns is M Gardevoir...which isn't getting played much anymore either.

Side note, it is pretty crazy what Deciplume has done to the meta.

I couldn't agree more. Passimian was overhyped since the Sun/Moon pre-release. M Scizor was only high because of its disruption potential and its ability to counter M Gardevoir (much like M Gardevoir counters M Mewtwo). Since M Gardevoir's fall from Grace, M Scizor doesn't really have much of a place in the metagame anymore.

Something I'd like to add, I really don't think Umbreon-GX should be T3. It just doesn't do enough damage in the current format to be relevant. Choice Band might change that, but for now I think it is lower than Espeon-GX.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I couldn't agree more. Passimian was overhyped since the Sun/Moon pre-release. M Scizor was only high because of its disruption potential and its ability to counter M Gardevoir (much like M Gardevoir counters M Mewtwo). Since M Gardevoir's fall from Grace, M Scizor doesn't really have much of a place in the metagame anymore.

Something I'd like to add, I really don't think Umbreon-GX should be T3. It just doesn't do enough damage in the current format to be relevant. Choice Band might change that, but for now I think it is lower than Espeon-GX.

The case for Umbreon-GX is it can setup fast and be disruptive. It doesn't rely solely on damage output but energy disruption as well. The deck can be good but I've seen the issues Umbreon can have but the simple fact is evolved Pokemon have no place in the game and even in a GX format, only the basics are viable.

 

[Fayld]

The case for Umbreon-GX is it can setup fast and be disruptive. It doesn't rely solely on damage output but energy disruption as well. The deck can be good but I've seen the issues Umbreon can have but the simple fact is evolved Pokemon have no place in the game and even in a GX format, only the basics are viable.

Dunno, I have found this to be a decent deck list. My daughter was able to pilot it pretty successfully. Honestly though, I think it could use a 1-2 Espeon GX along with a couple of Psychic energy in order to help with the Mewtwo matchup and to also let Wobbuffet attack. It's a fairly standard Eeveelutions + Zoroark deck.

##Pokémon - 18

* 4 Eevee SUM 101
* 3 Umbreon-GX SUM 154
* 2 Zorua BKT 90
* 2 Zoroark BKT 91
* 1 Zoroark BREAK
* 1 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 1 Tauros-GX SUM 156
* 1 Flareon AOR 13
* 1 Jolteon AOR 26
* 1 Vaporeon AOR 22
* 1 Wobbuffet GEN 111


##Trainer Cards - 31

* 3 Professor Sycamore STS 114
* 2 Lillie SUM 147
* 2 N NVI 101
* 2 Lysandre FLF 104
* 1 Hex Maniac AOR 75
* 1 Professor Kukui SUM 148
* 1 Team Flare Grunt GEN 73

* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 161
* 4 VS Seeker ROS 110
* 3 Trainers' Mail AOR 100
* 1 Super Rod NVI 95

* 3 Float Stone PLF 99
* 2 Assault Vest BKT 133

* 2 Reverse Valley BKP 110

##Energy - 11

* 7 Darkness Energy HS 121
* 4 Double Colorless Energy HS 103

 

[Alakazam90125]

I found an espeon-gx deck idea:

However, please note that, due to the Decidueye/Plume/Sableye combo that will be prominent by post-Guardians, no choice but to cut 1 off each side of the 3-3 Espeon-GX line to make room for Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF), so changes in italics followed by explanation...

Thanks to Pokemon TCG Center for the list. Here is the Youtube video that the following deck is based on:

Pokemon: 16
2-2 Espeon-GX(2-2 is enough to combat proponents of item and supporter lock such as vileplume and Sableye(GDR) (well, maybe not Sableye, due to the fact it's put on by attack, not ability) by making room for a counter that shuts them off such as Wobbuffet and Bide Barricade in a way that 3-3, as on the original list, takes up too much space for that)
2 Shaymin-EX
3-3 M Alakazam-EX
1 Hoopa(STS)
1 Hoopa-EX
2 Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF)(for blocking Decidueye/Plume)

Trainers: 33
2 Devolution Spray
2 Escape Rope
2 Mega Turbo
1 Super Rod
4 Trainers' Mail
4 VS Seeker
4 Ultra Ball
2 Sky Field
1 Delinquent
1 Hex Maniac(On original list, but keeping it on my list because Wobb alone won't cut it vs. psychic ability pokemon like Lunala, Toxapex, etc.)
1 Lysandre
2 N
4 Sycamore
3 Alakazam Spirit Link



Energy: 11
7 Psychic
4 Double Colorless

^ What do you think about my find? Does that help you in terms of tier placement?

I agree that this is viable, but not to a certain extent. I have tested Mega Alakazam a lot as a deck, and found that the best version is straight up with no other Pokemon (besides Shaymins/Hoopa and a Giratina promo). However, using the GX attack early on and then taking 2 or 3 big OHKO´s with Mega Alakazam sounds fun, I might need to try it out....

 

[Trixss]

I found an espeon-gx deck idea:

However, please note that, due to the Decidueye/Plume/Sableye combo that will be prominent by post-Guardians, no choice but to cut 1 off each side of the 3-3 Espeon-GX line to make room for Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF), so changes in italics followed by explanation...

Thanks to Pokemon TCG Center for the list. Here is the Youtube video that the following deck is based on:

Pokemon: 16
2-2 Espeon-GX(2-2 is enough to combat proponents of item and supporter lock such as vileplume and Sableye(GDR) (well, maybe not Sableye, due to the fact it's put on by attack, not ability) by making room for a counter that shuts them off such as Wobbuffet and Bide Barricade in a way that 3-3, as on the original list, takes up too much space for that)
2 Shaymin-EX
3-3 M Alakazam-EX
1 Hoopa(STS)
1 Hoopa-EX
2 Wobbuffet(GEN/PHF)(for blocking Decidueye/Plume)

Trainers: 33
2 Devolution Spray
2 Escape Rope
2 Mega Turbo
1 Super Rod
4 Trainers' Mail
4 VS Seeker
4 Ultra Ball
2 Sky Field
1 Delinquent
1 Hex Maniac(On original list, but keeping it on my list because Wobb alone won't cut it vs. psychic ability pokemon like Lunala, Toxapex, etc.)
1 Lysandre
2 N
4 Sycamore
3 Alakazam Spirit Link



Energy: 11
7 Psychic
4 Double Colorless

^ What do you think about my find? Does that help you in terms of tier placement?

I recently found a Decklist which uses Espeon GX as the main attacker thank you for contributing the Decklist though I appreciate it

That being said List has been updated next update should be on May 8th or 15th Depends on how many Decks we get from Guardians Rising I'll let you guys know when we get closer to that time, To everyone going to a Pre-release Enjoy hope you pull all the rainbows. Good Luck Have Fun!

 

[Fayld]

I agree that this is viable, but not to a certain extent. I have tested Mega Alakazam a lot as a deck, and found that the best version is straight up with no other Pokemon (besides Shaymins/Hoopa and a Giratina promo). However, using the GX attack early on and then taking 2 or 3 big OHKO´s with Mega Alakazam sounds fun, I might need to try it out....

Curious if you happen to play any expanded? If so, have you ever tested it with Trevenant break?

 

[Licki200]

In the Water Toolbox list in this thread, what would you cut for 4 aqua patch? Maybe the Kyurem?

 

[Trixss]

Curious if you happen to play any expanded? If so, have you ever tested it with Trevenant break?

I did play a lot of expanded before Sun and Moon the only thing I have played in expanded Sun and moon related is Manectric Solgaleo, The expanded meta game hasn't changed as much and I don't see it changing for awhile since all the BW Cards are still in there. I have tested trevenant break And I was thinking of playing it a bit after we get grass Phantump It seems like a strong first turn could ruin the game especially if you can combo it with Sableye from Guardians Rising.

In the Water Toolbox list in this thread, what would you cut for 4 aqua patch? Maybe the Kyurem?

Thank you for reminding me I actually forgot to update this list, This is the list I would use after Aqua patch is out http://imgur.com/a/ejCC6 Replace the alakazam Spirit links with Aqua Patch.

 

[Fayld]

I did play a lot of expanded before Sun and Moon the only thing I have played in expanded Sun and moon related is Manectric Solgaleo, The expanded meta game hasn't changed as much and I don't see it changing for awhile since all the BW Cards are still in there. I have tested trevenant break And I was thinking of playing it a bit after we get grass Phantump It seems like a strong first turn could ruin the game especially if you can combo it with Sableye from Guardians Rising.

That's funny. I have also been playing manectric Solgaleo! Want to pm me your list and i can send you mine to compare notes?

 

[Alakazam90125]

Curious if you happen to play any expanded? If so, have you ever tested it with Trevenant break?

I do play Expanded, and yes Trevenant BREAK is a good version of the deck- using 2 attacks and then retreating means you are now OHKOing every of your opponents Pokemon in play.

 

[Asmer]

Also M Scizor needs to be moved down to T3. No one plays it and the only deck it really owns is M Gardevoir...which isn't getting played much anymore either.

I'll only agree with this notion if Dhelmise doesn't help the deck out when it comes to KO potential. After all, M Mewtwo, M Ray, Decidueye/Plume, Vespiquen/Friends, etc. all rely on DCE for attacks and guess what M Scizor does?

Also, if you really think about it, M Scizor had problems against things like Fighting Fury Belt, since it literally took away its ability to OHKO/2HKO in the case of Lapras GX/Zygarde EX (who already don't care about M Scizor when it comes down to it). Field Blower takes care of that problem. If anything, with Field Blower and Dhelmise, I wouldn't be surprised if M Scizor EX either keeps at a healthy Tier 2 or even moves up to the low end of Tier 1 (though, that's probably asking for too much).

I think the deck has a lot of potential going in to Guardians Rising. How much will carry through will be the question, but I think it's more than we're giving it credit.

-Asmer

 

[Fayld]

I'll only agree with this notion if Dhelmise doesn't help the deck out when it comes to KO potential. After all, M Mewtwo, M Ray, Decidueye/Plume, Vespiquen/Friends, etc. all rely on DCE for attacks and guess what M Scizor does?

Also, if you really think about it, M Scizor had problems against things like Fighting Fury Belt, since it literally took away its ability to OHKO/2HKO in the case of Lapras GX/Zygarde EX (who already don't care about M Scizor when it comes down to it). Field Blower takes care of that problem. If anything, with Field Blower and Dhelmise, I wouldn't be surprised if M Scizor EX either keeps at a healthy Tier 2 or even moves up to the low end of Tier 1 (though, that's probably asking for too much).

I think the deck has a lot of potential going in to Guardians Rising. How much will carry through will be the question, but I think it's more than we're giving it credit.

-Asmer

I will happily eat those words if it happens. My motto is the more viable competitive decks the better. Would be nice to see a lightning deck come out of GUR as well, but that's probably asking too much. Would be nice to see a top tier fighting deck emerge as well.

 

[Arizaiaz]

I'll only agree with this notion if Dhelmise doesn't help the deck out when it comes to KO potential. After all, M Mewtwo, M Ray, Decidueye/Plume, Vespiquen/Friends, etc. all rely on DCE for attacks and guess what M Scizor does?

Also, if you really think about it, M Scizor had problems against things like Fighting Fury Belt, since it literally took away its ability to OHKO/2HKO in the case of Lapras GX/Zygarde EX (who already don't care about M Scizor when it comes down to it). Field Blower takes care of that problem. If anything, with Field Blower and Dhelmise, I wouldn't be surprised if M Scizor EX either keeps at a healthy Tier 2 or even moves up to the low end of Tier 1 (though, that's probably asking for too much).

I think the deck has a lot of potential going in to Guardians Rising. How much will carry through will be the question, but I think it's more than we're giving it credit.

-Asmer

Field Blower while great is a two way street. As a Mega evolution player, you won't be able to just slap down your precious Spirit Links turn 1 without risking them and potentially losing a turn of momentum. Dhelmise definitely helps tho. I think if Sylveon GX kicks off to some quick placements, Mega Scizor may be our sole steel champion. Outside of that I just don't see how Scizor efficiently deals with the expected influx of Water and Lurantis variants.

I will admit that Field Blower, Choice Band, and Tapu Lele will undoubtedly affect the format in a way that will be hard to predict. There are almost too many seemingly good decks to pilot. Exciting times ahead!