Discussion Standard Meta Tier List

[Asmer]

Field Blower while great is a two way street. As a Mega evolution player, you won't be able to just slap down your precious Spirit Links turn 1 without risking them and potentially losing a turn of momentum. Dhelmise definitely helps tho. I think if Sylveon GX kicks off to some quick placements, Mega Scizor may be our sole steel champion. Outside of that I just don't see how Scizor efficiently deals with the expected influx of Water and Lurantis variants.

I will admit that Field Blower, Choice Band, and Tapu Lele will undoubtedly affect the format in a way that will be hard to predict. There are almost too many seemingly good decks to pilot. Exciting times ahead!

Scizor deals with Lurantis the same way Lurantis deals with Scizor: By attacking it. I know it sounds silly, but considering that a lot of Lurantis variants have been teching Eeveelutions and the fact that Scizor can not only do the same, but can effectively tech Garbodor to counteract Flareon, I don't see how that's much of a problem. It becomes an even match-up with the exception of, as you mention, Spirit Link interactions, and even then, you still have a better time against the Meta than Lurantis currently does (Lurantis doesn't have as good a match-up against M Mewtwo Y as Scizor does, for example). Though, I will say, Garbodor isn't exactly the strongest card anymore, but even without it, you can still tech Eeveelutions and other things, etc.

Quad Lapras only becomes a problem if you don't set up properly. You can be slower than them and still win, mainly because Lapras has to GX Attack in order to effectively 2HKO you (or rely on something like switch shenanigans/Pokemon Ranger plays, both which are inefficient if you really think about it). Other Water Pokemon that are typically used in Waterbox itself are, well... weak to Metal, meaning they aren't as big of a problem, so long as you tech in Pokemon Ranger yourself. The less the deck attacks, the better.

I will happily eat those words if it happens. My motto is the more viable competitive decks the better. Would be nice to see a lightning deck come out of GUR as well, but that's probably asking too much. Would be nice to see a top tier fighting deck emerge as well.

Raikou is still a surprisingly good deck and Vespiquen/Raichu was doing pretty well in the Latin America Regionals earlier today. As far as Fighting goes, Zygarde is still our best bet at the moment and the new Stadium does help the deck... kind of. That said, I'm sure there's a Stage 1 Fighting Pokemone that should be a lot better now that we have said Stadium or, if we stay in an EX-esque Meta, we could see Garchomp make a comeback in some regard. I think the deck is, at the very least, a solid Tier 3 (at least when I played it, it seemed like it).

I think Tapu Koko GX is pretty good as well, but I do worry about how strong it actually is. I don't think its enough to warrant a Tier by itself any higher than like... 3, but... we'll see. I do hope that things do change, however. I am kind of tired of the same decks over and over.

-Asmer

 

[TheDude133]

I will happily eat those words if it happens. My motto is the more viable competitive decks the better. Would be nice to see a lightning deck come out of GUR as well, but that's probably asking too much. Would be nice to see a top tier fighting deck emerge as well.

Lycanroc will be able to thrive post rotation, but not before, the deck cant be good as long as Forest of Giant Plants is a card. The GR Lycanroc will be good for disruption, and it might get some RNG wins, but with Owl and Lurantis around, it cant be anywhere near the top. Tier 2 at best.

Field Blower while great is a two way street. As a Mega evolution player, you won't be able to just slap down your precious Spirit Links turn 1 without risking them and potentially losing a turn of momentum. Dhelmise definitely helps tho. I think if Sylveon GX kicks off to some quick placements, Mega Scizor may be our sole steel champion. Outside of that I just don't see how Scizor efficiently deals with the expected influx of Water and Lurantis variants.

I will admit that Field Blower, Choice Band, and Tapu Lele will undoubtedly affect the format in a way that will be hard to predict. There are almost too many seemingly good decks to pilot. Exciting times ahead!

Couple things here:

1: Most Mega-Players know not to play the links down unless absolutely needed. And for that matter, anyone who played when tool scrapper first came out should remember the importance of Keldeo's float stone.

2: He wont be the sole Metal Pokemon in the meta. You have Metagross GX who can function as a solo attacker because of his built-in acceleration and good damage. In fact, i think it will be better than M-Scizor solely because of Field Blower. The only item you are going to be worrying about is Float Stone anyways, and most decks SHOULD be running 2-1 Escape Rope-Switch lines to compensate.

3: Water Box isnt that big of a problem, even for the deck now. Most M-Scizor players I know, including myself, have included 1-2 Kukuai in their decks to continue to OHKO things like Solgaleo and Lapras GX with FFB.

4: --This one is opinion based-- The Deck will be a different beast all together once GR comes out. Garbador is pretty dead right now, since Buffet is better in the current game state. Here's a list for an example: http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/post-gr-mega-scizor.139700/

5: Tapu-Lele is interesting. I do think its a 1 if not 2-of staple, like Shaymin EX, HOWEVER, not as game breaking. Its attack is no stronger than Lugia EX's, which currently isn't game breaking with so many 2 energy attackers in the game, so it's main focus will be the ability, and with most supporter lines being >12 cards, even its ability will die out later in the game.

 

[Arizaiaz]

Scizor deals with Lurantis the same way Lurantis deals with Scizor: By attacking it. I know it sounds silly, but considering that a lot of Lurantis variants have been teching Eeveelutions and the fact that Scizor can not only do the same, but can effectively tech Garbodor to counteract Flareon, I don't see how that's much of a problem. It becomes an even match-up with the exception of, as you mention, Spirit Link interactions, and even then, you still have a better time against the Meta than Lurantis currently does (Lurantis doesn't have as good a match-up against M Mewtwo Y as Scizor does, for example). Though, I will say, Garbodor isn't exactly the strongest card anymore, but even without it, you can still tech Eeveelutions and other things, etc.

Quad Lapras only becomes a problem if you don't set up properly. You can be slower than them and still win, mainly because Lapras has to GX Attack in order to effectively 2HKO you (or rely on something like switch shenanigans/Pokemon Ranger plays, both which are inefficient if you really think about it). Other Water Pokemon that are typically used in Waterbox itself are, well... weak to Metal, meaning they aren't as big of a problem, so long as you tech in Pokemon Ranger yourself. The less the deck attacks, the better.

-Asmer

Yeah, I guess it really depends on how these decks are built in the future. I don't think Lurantis GX plays Eeveelutions anymore with Choice Band and the pack blister Lurantis releasing soon, making Max Potion more viable in the deck. Going down more of a Mega Manetric style of play.

Water decks that play Lapras GX can just retreat into another Lapras with either Manaphy or by paying retreat and Aqua Patching those energy back. Not to mention a potential comeback for Greninja decks thanks to Choice Band/Field Blower. Although you are right, playing against stuff like Alolan-Ninetales will be EZ mode.

Oh and Mega Scizor can't benefit from the eeveelutions. It's not a stage 1.

Couple things here:

1: Most Mega-Players know not to play the links down unless absolutely needed. And for that matter, anyone who played when tool scrapper first came out should remember the importance of Keldeo's float stone.

2: He wont be the sole Metal Pokemon in the meta. You have Metagross GX who can function as a solo attacker because of his built-in acceleration and good damage. In fact, i think it will be better than M-Scizor solely because of Field Blower. The only item you are going to be worrying about is Float Stone anyways, and most decks SHOULD be running 2-1 Escape Rope-Switch lines to compensate.

3: Water Box isnt that big of a problem, even for the deck now. Most M-Scizor players I know, including myself, have included 1-2 Kukuai in their decks to continue to OHKO things like Solgaleo and Lapras GX with FFB.

4: --This one is opinion based-- The Deck will be a different beast all together once GR comes out. Garbador is pretty dead right now, since Buffet is better in the current game state. I'll edit this comment with a link to a thread in deck garage for an example of post GR M-Scizor.

5: Tapu-Lele is interesting. I do think its a 1 if not 2-of staple, like Shaymin EX, HOWEVER, not as game breaking. Its attack is no stronger than Lugia EX's, which currently isn't game breaking with so many 2 energy attackers in the game, so it's main focus will be the ability, and with most supporter lines being >12 cards, even its ability will die out later in the game.

Interesting points. Here is what I think about them.

1: Agreed, I mainly just brought it up as sometimes it is unavoidable to play down your spirit links during your setup (playing it before using Sycamore for example). Not game breaking but getting hit with an early field blower is much more costly for Megas (with the exception of M-Ray/grass Megas under FoGP) in that situation.

2: I like Metagross GX too! But being a stage 2 is going to hold it back for now. I would argue that Solgaleo GX is the better stage 2 and even it doesn't see much success currently.

3: Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here. How does M-Scizor OHKO either of those with just a Kukui?

4: I'm not trying to say that Scizor is bad. Just that a lot of decks are getting help with this set.

5: Everyone knows Tapu Lele GX will be amazing. I'm all for avoiding those turn 1's where all you needed was a draw supporter and your deck decided to brick. Or avoiding situations where you would ultra ball > Shaymin EX for 4 cards and still whiff the supporter. Consistency for everyone!

 

[TheDude133]

Yeah, I guess it really depends on how these decks are built in the future. I don't think Lurantis GX plays Eeveelutions anymore with Choice Band and the pack blister Lurantis releasing soon, making Max Potion more viable in the deck. Going down more of a Mega Manetric style of play.

Water decks that play Lapras GX can just retreat into another Lapras with either Manaphy or by paying retreat and Aqua Patching those energy back. Although you are right, playing against stuff like Alolan-Ninetales will be EZ mode.

Oh and Mega Scizor can't benefit from the eeveelutions. It's not a stage 1.


Interesting points. Here is what I think about them.

1: Agreed, I mainly just brought it up as sometimes it is unavoidable to play down your spirit links during your setup (playing it before using Sycamore for example). Not game breaking but getting hit with an early field blower is much more costly for Megas (with the exception of M-Ray/grass Megas under FoGP) in that situation.

2: I like Metagross GX too! But being a stage 2 is going to hold it back for now. I would argue that Solgaleo GX is the better stage 2 and even it doesn't see much success currently.

3: Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here. How does M-Scizor OHKO either of those with just a Kukui?

4: I'm not trying to say that Scizor is bad. Just that a lot of decks are getting help with this set.

5: Everyone knows Tapu Lele GX will be amazing. I'm all for avoiding those turn 1's where all you needed was a draw supporter and your deck decided to brick. Or avoiding situations where you would ultra ball > Shaymin EX for 4 cards and still whiff the supporter. Consistency for everyone!

On #3 I meant 2-HKO, my apologies.

The difference between Solgaleo and Metagross, is the let game. Solgaleo has a great early because of its OHKO potiential, but once it does it's attack, its just sitting there, thus why most lists have other attackers in it. Metagross however is the attacker. And with Tapu-Lele, it has a good secondary attacker as well. Consistacy and Damage Per Turn are the benefits Metagross has over Solgaleo.

I understand where you're coming from, yeah, a lot of decks do get help. However Scizor is a very linear deck. It just goes, no tricks needed. You can add techs depending on the meta, and with Alter of the Sunne, it can actually compete with fire decks now, so it gets a buff.

Like I said, Tapu-Lele is interesting. I think people are giving it more credit that it actually should have, but I understand the pros and cons of the card.

 

[Asmer]

Yeah, I guess it really depends on how these decks are built in the future. I don't think Lurantis GX plays Eeveelutions anymore with Choice Band and the pack blister Lurantis releasing soon, making Max Potion more viable in the deck. Going down more of a Mega Manetric style of play.

Water decks that play Lapras GX can just retreat into another Lapras with either Manaphy or by paying retreat and Aqua Patching those energy back. Not to mention a potential comeback for Greninja decks thanks to Choice Band/Field Blower. Although you are right, playing against stuff like Alolan-Ninetales will be EZ mode.

Oh and Mega Scizor can't benefit from the eeveelutions. It's not a stage 1.

Oh goodness, I'm so sorry. I'm tired. Thanks for the catch on M Scizor not being a Stage 1. xD
Yeah, Waterbox itself will have an easier time when it comes to Lapras attacking, though I still feel like it relies too much on situational outcomes to be anything more than a 50-50 for now. That said... Aqua Patch is a dangerous card. I could see it, by itself, making the match more or less a 55-45 or a 60-40 depending on how fast the deck becomes with it.

It's funny, because when Lurantis GX was first spoiled, the first thing I said was that it would be a Meta deck. I knew it would come, I just didn't know when. I have no doubt the deck is going to be incredibly strong this next set and upcoming, so it's definitely something we should all be watching out for even more so. That said, it makes me wonder what else is going to be really strong in Guardians Rising. We received a lot of different tools, from Rayquaza to Field Blower, Choice Band and Aqua Patch, things like Tapu Lele GX and heck, even random things like Golisopod, who looks good on paper. I honestly can't wait to see what comes from this set. It excites me more than Sun and Moon did and I was incredibly excited for that.

-Asmer

 

[Fayld]

Raikou is still a surprisingly good deck and Vespiquen/Raichu was doing pretty well in the Latin America Regionals earlier today. As far as Fighting goes, Zygarde is still our best bet at the moment and the new Stadium does help the deck... kind of. That said, I'm sure there's a Stage 1 Fighting Pokemone that should be a lot better now that we have said Stadium or, if we stay in an EX-esque Meta, we could see Garchomp make a comeback in some regard. I think the deck is, at the very least, a solid Tier 3 (at least when I played it, it

I think Tapu Koko GX is pretty good as well, but I do worry about how strong it actually is. I don't think its enough to warrant a Tier by itself any higher than like... 3, but... we'll see. I do hope that things do change, however. I am kind of tired of the same decks over and over.

-Asmer

Raikou is a great deck, it just doesn't have a sweeper to one shot things atm. I think Tapu Koko might remedy that and tbh, koko is the card I am most excited about playing. I don't know that Raikou will ever be better than a t3 deck in standard with the current cards. If there was an Archie's for lightning types, I think this is a whole different conversation. Alas there isn't.

Yeah zygarde is good. Rocks n Ruffs are good. I wouldn't call either competitive currently though. They both can play against decks in the meta and do well, nut neither is strong enough to get very far in a regional setting atm. Primal Groudon standard style can be brutal, but suffers the same issue i think. Honestly, I would rather play my Machamp EX Tauros GX Outrage deck over any of the three. It would at least be fun to play while losing close match after close match.

 

[Licki200]

I did play a lot of expanded before Sun and Moon the only thing I have played in expanded Sun and moon related is Manectric Solgaleo, The expanded meta game hasn't changed as much and I don't see it changing for awhile since all the BW Cards are still in there. I have tested trevenant break And I was thinking of playing it a bit after we get grass Phantump It seems like a strong first turn could ruin the game especially if you can combo it with Sableye from Guardians Rising.


Thank you for reminding me I actually forgot to update this list, This is the list I would use after Aqua patch is out http://imgur.com/a/ejCC6 Replace the alakazam Spirit links with Aqua Patch.

Why no Ultra Ball, Dive Ball, or Trainer's Mail?

 

[TheDude133]

Why no Ultra Ball, Dive Ball, or Trainer's Mail?

Nest Ball is better than Ultra Ball/Dive Ball in this deck. You have no one that you want to ultra Ball for, that you cant Nest Ball for.

As for the T-mail, you can make the argument for why its needed and what to remove for it, but it's not that big of a game changer for this deck.

 

[Licki200]

Nest Ball is better than Ultra Ball/Dive Ball in this deck. You have no one that you want to ultra Ball for, that you cant Nest Ball for.

As for the T-mail, you can make the argument for why its needed and what to remove for it, but it's not that big of a game changer for this deck.

Wouldn't Ultra Ball make it easier to discard water energy for Aqua Patch?

 

[TheDude133]

Wouldn't Ultra Ball make it easier to discard water energy for Aqua Patch?

Yes, however, you play this deck different than BW Darkrai. Aqua patch is your late game recovery, not your acceleration.

 

[Asmer]

Raikou is a great deck, it just doesn't have a sweeper to one shot things atm. I think Tapu Koko might remedy that and tbh, koko is the card I am most excited about playing. I don't know that Raikou will ever be better than a t3 deck in standard with the current cards. If there was an Archie's for lightning types, I think this is a whole different conversation. Alas there isn't.

Yeah zygarde is good. Rocks n Ruffs are good. I wouldn't call either competitive currently though. They both can play against decks in the meta and do well, nut neither is strong enough to get very far in a regional setting atm. Primal Groudon standard style can be brutal, but suffers the same issue i think. Honestly, I would rather play my Machamp EX Tauros GX Outrage deck over any of the three. It would at least be fun to play while losing close match after close match.

After listening to Dennis's video on Tapu Koko, I came to the realization that you can just loop them over and over (which I should have realized before, but even I'm a massive scrub at times lol). Because of that, I think Koko will be a Tier 3 deck until we get Acerola. Once that happens, I have almost no doubt we will have a tier 2 minimum Lightning deck on our hands. You'll be able to free switch a Koko with damage on it, healthy one will go up, Acerola the damaged one, rinse and repeat. Knowing that... I'm excited.

Both Zygarde and Lycanroc are definitely Regional Competitive. Hell, Lycanroc took first place in Salt Lake City for Juniors, against M Rayquaza of all things. I'm pretty sure that's at least a good enough indicator to speak in favor of Fighting being viable (and it should only get stronger with Guardians Rising).

Yes, however, you play this deck different than BW Darkrai. Aqua patch is your late game recovery, not your acceleration.

Not to mention, the deck still plays Sycamore, so discard options really shouldn't be too big a deal.

-Asmer

 

[Sean Jans]

Thanks for this. Incredibly helpful resource!

 

[CaptZero]

Why does the Lycanroc deck shown not have any Strong Energy?

 

[Elray]

Why does the Lycanroc deck shown not have any Strong Energy?

I second this; Lycanroc-GX decks need Strong Energy to hit those beefy Stage 2 GXs

 

[Trixss]

Why does the Lycanroc deck shown not have any Strong Energy?

I played this deck using strong energy and it made no difference to be honest, It adds 20 extra damage but you will be using crunch and most of the time after 2 crunches you can knock it out with Accelrock. The energy count is also low in this deck and you can't attach a strong energy to Wob or shaymin incase they get stuck in the active so you would have to burn away an energy and only way to get it back is super rod. It's all preference I think but after testing 4 different list I found this list without the strong energies is more consistent.

 

[CaptZero]

I played this deck using strong energy and it made no difference to be honest, It adds 20 extra damage but you will be using crunch and most of the time after 2 crunches you can knock it out with Accelrock. The energy count is also low in this deck and you can't attach a strong energy to Wob or shaymin incase they get stuck in the active so you would have to burn away an energy and only way to get it back is super rod. It's all preference I think but after testing 4 different list I found this list without the strong energies is more consistent.

Sound logic, thanks for the reply.

 

[cardgjammer]

I find that GR helped M Mewtwo-EX--by one word:

Garbodor...

^ Trashalanche requires 1 psychic? Then assuming no disruptions occur, although I'm not sure if the following is doable and realistic:

Turn 1: Fan Club Mewtwo-EX and Oranguru, Ultra Ball supporters away until Oranguru can use Instruct to replenish hand to three, hopefully getting a Spirit Link in hand from that, attach psychic to Trubbish, end turn.

Turn 2:Ultra Ball to clear hand down to at least two cards, then Mallow + Oranguru(Instruct) to get one Field blower on Gardy's Spirit Links, as well as a Mega Mewtwo-EX/Spirit Link if necessary to get Mewtwo-EX Mega'd w/o ending turn after, and watch the 1-prize attacker buy M Mewtwo-EX time to charge up, defeating M Gardevoir-EXes that have Despair Ray by using a combo of Acid Spray(for energy removal should the foe not have at least 11 items in discard for Trashalanche to KO the Gardy Mega) and Trashalanche until the 2-prize mark, then...

...on the final turn(whatever turn number it is): finish the last two prizes off w/ Altar of the Moone(to retreat Garbodor) and Psychic Infinity...

Note that the above scenario assumes you have a M Mewtwo-EX in hand before Turn 2, and can vary by circumstances. For example: If you do not already have Mewtwo's Mega card in hand before the Ultra Ball use, you may want to take Mewtwo's Mega from deck, then resume mentioned process after Mega evolving mewtwo. Likewise, if you have them both, you could proceed to double colorless by the Mallow + Instruct, then resume process...

^ What do you think? Is the above strategy doable? Is there something you can do differently to improve chances of outrunning Despair Ray w/ the Trashalancher's help? Or is Despair Ray still an auto-loss for M Mewtwo-EX decks???

^ After all, M Mewtwo-EX's only main obstacle to tier S status is Despair Ray. I wonder if there's anything in Guardians Rising that changes the tiers as shown on first post of this thread to anything different related to M Mewtwo-EX...

 

[Trixss]

I find that GR helped M Mewtwo-EX--by one word:

Garbodor...

^ Trashalanche requires 1 psychic? Then assuming no disruptions occur, although I'm not sure if the following is doable and realistic:

Turn 1: Fan Club Mewtwo-EX and Oranguru, Ultra Ball supporters away until Oranguru can use Instruct to replenish hand to three, hopefully getting a Spirit Link in hand from that, attach psychic to Trubbish, end turn.

Turn 2:Ultra Ball to clear hand down to at least two cards, then Mallow + Oranguru(Instruct) to get one Field blower on Gardy's Spirit Links, as well as a Mega Mewtwo-EX/Spirit Link if necessary to get Mewtwo-EX Mega'd w/o ending turn after, and watch the 1-prize attacker buy M Mewtwo-EX time to charge up, defeating M Gardevoir-EXes that have Despair Ray by using a combo of Acid Spray(for energy removal should the foe not have at least 11 items in discard for Trashalanche to KO the Gardy Mega) and Trashalanche until the 2-prize mark, then...

...on the final turn(whatever turn number it is): finish the last two prizes off w/ Altar of the Moone(to retreat Garbodor) and Psychic Infinity...

Note that the above scenario assumes you have a M Mewtwo-EX in hand before Turn 2, and can vary by circumstances. For example: If you do not already have Mewtwo's Mega card in hand before the Ultra Ball use, you may want to take Mewtwo's Mega from deck, then resume mentioned process after Mega evolving mewtwo. Likewise, if you have them both, you could proceed to double colorless by the Mallow + Instruct, then resume process...

^ What do you think? Is the above strategy doable? Is there something you can do differently to improve chances of outrunning Despair Ray w/ the Trashalancher's help? Or is Despair Ray still an auto-loss for M Mewtwo-EX decks???

^ After all, M Mewtwo-EX's only main obstacle to tier S status is Despair Ray. I wonder if there's anything in Guardians Rising that changes the tiers as shown on first post of this thread to anything different related to M Mewtwo-EX...

The problem with this is you want them to use 11 items, Most gardevoir decks have 20-22 items and those items are situational it's not somthing they would use to get going. Most of the time they will burn 2-3 ultra balls and 3 trainer's every other item is usually a spirit link and mega turbo. Although I do think adding in GR Garbodor is good but it's very situational vs Despair ray. The way I can see it working is pulling out an early Garbotoxin Garb so they are forced to burn items and supporters then bring out the Trashalanch when there is enough to hit for a OHKO.

 

[cardgjammer]

The problem with this is you want them to use 11 items, Most gardevoir decks have 20-22 items and those items are situational it's not somthing they would use to get going. Most of the time they will burn 2-3 ultra balls and 3 trainer's every other item is usually a spirit link and mega turbo. Although I do think adding in GR Garbodor is good but it's very situational vs Despair ray. The way I can see it working is pulling out an early Garbotoxin Garb so they are forced to burn items and supporters then bring out the Trashalanch when there is enough to hit for a OHKO.

Based on that, I tested the idea of a 4-2('toxin)+2(trashalanche) Garbodor split, and cutting my M Mewtwo-EX line to 2-2(and cutting the links to 2 from 3), and so far, did not face Gardy yet, but 6 wins out of 7(the only loss due to dead draw)? Not a bad addition to M Mewtwo-EX so far, at the expense of a Lycanroc deck that crumbled by the Trashalanche...

At this rate, it won't be long until M Mewtwo-EX is proven worthy of a move up, and/or maybe a change in identity to M Mewtwo/Garb(GUR)

 

[Elray]

It might be too early to tell at this point, but I think that Tapu Koko-GX is probably going to be tier 2. It hits M Ray for weakness and its GX attack is one of the best in the new set.

What do you think will happen to Mega Ray with Sudowoodo in the meta and lightning making a comeback?