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Limitless said:
With Garchomp having to fight between the new additions of Manaphy and Latias, do you think Garchomp is now viable to be placed in the OU tier once again?
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I know that most of us will disagree (including me), but I believe Garchomp coming into OU is a possibility. Recent changes (Platinum, HGSS and Latias) did offer a few things that help it matched down a bit faster, but I still don't think they're enough to allow Garchomp back in OU.

Let's face the truth, Garchomp is almost the perfect sweeper, and there are little flaws to it. Garchomp was moved to Uber for good reasons: its excellent movepool (glorious STAB and unpredictability, you never know if it's Yache, Chain or Scarf, and when you do, you'll most likely lose a team member finding out) and excellent defenses (Ice- and Dragon-type move users have to have amazing attack stats to succesfully kill Garchomp, even that can be foiled by Yache Berry). These were the primary causes of Garchomp's overcentralization, players were forced to carry multiple checks on how to revenge kill it. I believe Garchomp has also lead to a bulky metagame because one couldn't simply rely on frail pokes to take him out due to the fact that Garchomp is incredibly powerful. Granted it wasn't solely Garchomp that forced a shift to a bulky offensive metagame, but I think he was certainly a driving factor. Perhaps the one major thing that intimidated most players (as well as myself) was simply Sand Veil, which was intensified by Tyranitar's value in the current metagame. Obviously there is no real solution to this.
 
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Garchomp is one of the most dominant threats in the OU Metagame and little can stop it at some points in a game. But I see no reason to move him to the Uber tier when most of the time any sweeper that has setup requires you to sac 1 or 2 team members before taking it down. The whole point of this game to get better at it and you get better as you learn to play around things like Garchomp. It also gives players a chance to make innovative sets instead of using the bog standard. If I could, I would bring Garchomp back down to OU where it belongs.
 
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What do I know? But I personally dont think any pokemon should be banned. Maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, however.

Since we are talking about Garchomp, let me use him for the example.
Garchomp is a dual Dragon/Ground type. (or Ground/Dragon) So Ice is x4 Effective. So without yache berry, he SHOULD be 1HKO'd.
And Ice Beam is a very common attack it seems. Its easy to deal with him. Sure Sandstorm gives him more chances to avoid attacks, but thats just one more element to the stradegy of the game.

You can argue this all you want, but a Good Latias is just as good if not better, then any garchomp. (no, I dont mean head to head)
Latias has a good sized move pool and good base stats too. After just a little set up, she can wall of even strong Ice beam attacks.

Then theres togekiss, that super cheap combo; (Thunder Wave, Air Slash) is very hard to deal with, and in some ways is unfair. You could argue that. Yet she is allowed too.

Point being, Garchomp has lots of moves sure, and has good stats too, but is easily stopped by any pokemon using Ice attacks.
 
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What kind of logic is that? That is like saying Rayquaza should be OU because it is weak to Ice attacks. It is slower than Salamence too. Let's do it!?
 
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shadoworganoid said:
What do I know? But I personally don't think any pokemon should be banned. Maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, however.

Since we are talking about Garchomp, let me use him for the example.
Garchomp is a dual Dragon/Ground type. (or Ground/Dragon) So Ice is x4 Effective. So without yache berry, he SHOULD be 1HKO'd.
And Ice Beam is a very common attack it seems. Its easy to deal with him. Sure Sandstorm gives him more chances to avoid attacks, but thats just one more element to the stradegy of the game.

You can argue this all you want, but a Good Latias is just as good if not better, then any garchomp. (no, I don't mean head to head)
Latias has a good sized move pool and good base stats too. After just a little set up, she can wall of even strong Ice beam attacks.

Then theres togekiss, that super cheap combo; (Thunder Wave, Air Slash) is very hard to deal with, and in some ways is unfair. You could argue that. Yet she is allowed too.

Point being, Garchomp has lots of moves sure, and has good stats too, but is easily stopped by any pokemon using Ice attacks.
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That's why Yache Berry exists, to let Garchomp live an Ice Beam and take out the opposing pokemon.
 
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Look, Im not some great champion of battling, but I do know all this handy cap stuff is not helping our case any.

The game's programming allowed us to catch Pokemon like Latios or Groudon. Why have it if we cant use it?
Its just a game, and everything in the game is meant for playing.

Its easy for someone to just pick a legendary pokemon or somthing really powerful and just use that. That takes little skill.


Why not just test skills and allow everything? (With a few exceptions I suppose)

OR

Ban ALL legendaries and allow anything else. That gives real stradegy.



Garchomp is not invincible. No pokemon is. Any pokemon can set up and sweep. But isnt that then the opponents fault for allowing that?
I had a battle a long time ago where they were useing a latias and calm mind over and over. Gamercal told me iti was my fault for not switching to a physical attacker. And he's right.
Any pokemon in this game is perfectly manageable.

Why play the game if we cant use all the options avalible to us?
 
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Sure the game let us catch Latios and Groudon, but we ave OU and Uber tiers for a reason. Things in the Uber tiers are to strong to be used in OU competitive play, Legends in OU have flaws that allow them to preform well without over centralizing the Metagame. The legendary birds are weak to Stealth Rock, the only dog that is used is Suicune due to Calm Mind.

Kyogre has auto rain and Groudon has auto sun which help with it's resistances making it hard to beat in OU. Rayquaza has amazing stats and a well balanced movepool.

Garchomp may not be perfect, but it's as close as we get to it. We try to balance the game as much as possible, if we didn't we'd see Ubers used 99% of the time.
 
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The Philosophy of Competitive Battling should be a mandatory read for basically everyone in Battle Stadium.
 
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Kevin Garrett said:
You really need to read the Philosophy of Competitive Battling.
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This "philosophy" stuff is just everyone's opintion.

Okay true, we would see Ubers 99% of the time.
But dont we see the same OU's most of the time as well?

As players, we need to adapt to the situation.

I myself dont care as to what pokemon we can use. However, it should be an all or nothing game then.

Either all pokemon, or no legendaries at all.


Im not here to start a flame war. Dont worry.

But look at scizor, the common combo we use for him is pretty cheap too. "STAB + Technician + Life Orb/Choice Band + Bullet Punch = WOW.

The restrictions have too many loop holes. Ban garchomp for its move pool, but not Scizor or Togekiss combo?
 
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The goal is to make a balanced metagame without overpowering Pokemon. You used Scizor as an example of "something you see all the time". As good as Scizor is, it is far from broken in any way. Rotom-A, Zapdos, and Gyarados (naming just a few) are absolute counters to Scizor. It can't do anything to them. Name counters for Garchomp. It's not as simple as "it's Ice weak". I'll beat a dead horse by mentioning Yache Berry one more time. It halves damage from Ice attacks. So you just lost one Pokemon to Garchomp. If you don't have anything else to handle Garchomp it's your whole team. Essentially, you lose at least one Pokemon to Garchomp every time. Now let's go into more realistic scenerios. It's no secret that sand and Garchomp are great friends. That makes all attacks that would normally have 100% accuracy drop down to 80%. So your so called "Ice weak Pokemon" can beat one if not more/all of your Ice attacking Pokemon even without a Yache Berry. Can you say the same for Scizor?

You also mentioned Togekiss before. Thunder Wave and Air Slash is a pathetic move set. How exactly do you beat Blissey with that? It takes about 10-14% from Air Slash each turn, and Leftovers recovers half of it right back. Air Slash's max PP is 24. You don't need to be a mathematics professor to figure that one out. It's not just Blissey either. Rotom-A or anything else that has good defenses and resists Flying-type attacks (which is a common resist) can easily handle Togekiss. And don't forget it's poor Speed stat, making it totally worthless against something faster with Substitute.
 
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Okay.

Well, my overal opinion still stands at this:

"We should just ban all Legendaries."

I mean, doesnt it take more skill to use UU and NU pokemon well? Its easy to use OU and Ubers cause they have high stats to begin with.



OH! Before I forget then.

If garchomp is so Uber, why is it allowed in VGC?
 
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Define legendary.

Garchomp is allowed in VGC because they have the worst rule set ever. Also, don't forget Outrage and EQ are significantly less useful in 2v2.
 
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Define worst rule set ever.


What I mean by legendary is: all 3 birds, dogs, regi's, latias, jirachi. ECT.
 
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Legendary is a fan based term as far as I'm concerned.

The rules are uncompetitive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_game
 
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Why would you ban legendaries if most of them aren't even used?

You just want to ban things that are standard in OU.
 
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Plato said:
Why would you ban legendaries if most of them aren't even used?

You just want to ban things that are standard in OU.
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Lol, That MIGHT be true. Maybe.... lol

IDK.... I guess I dont really care. My issue is I cant find a team that works well for me.

If you dont mind me asking; What are 3 other pokemon (VGC) that would go with Armaldo?
 
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Garchomp has far too many factors that immediately put it in Uber, although like mentioned before, it can still drop back down to OU. 108 base HP for a sweeper is very welcomed by anyone, allowing a MixChomp (or ChainChomp) to run a -Def/SpD Nature with not much to worry. Regardless, 95 Def and 85 SpD as base stats are slightly above average.

130 Attack and 102 Speed. With 102 Speed, Garchomp's Speed rises to 303 with a neutral Nature, easily outspeeding many Pokemon (which includes neutral natured 100 base Speed Pokemon, like Salamence, or things like Lucario easily). 130 Attack ties with Scizor, and we all know how bad Scizor can be.

Its two STAB move types - Dragon and Ground, are unresisted when coupled with a Fire-type move, which can be Fire Fang, or Fire Blast. That alone is enough to sweep the metagame, especially with the right teammates and the right amount of support. Sand Veil.. self explanatory.
 
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I've heard some people consider "Rotom" as a legendary. Your telling me that Rotom should be removed from competitive play? Ubers isn't a tier for "legendaries", uber is a tier for Pokémon that overpower the metagame. Atleast in OU metagame there are more than 23 Pokemon to choose from and some people like to be "original" and use UU Pokémon which makes the selection even larger.
 
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Okay okay. Forget I said anything.

Perhaps my complaints lie with the fact that I cant get a team that works for me well yet.



But why is Wobafett Uber, yet blissey isnt? Im not too sure on their stats and move pool.
 
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