THE Durant thread: Durant NV.

I don't think Zekrom has to be an auto-loss, depending on whether or not you can use Weavile to discard key cards early game, or if you draw into a lot of crush hammer/lost remover/junk arm. Energy denial is a good strategy against Zekrom, as is discarding cards like Pachirisu. The whole disruption aspect of Durant is what can allow it to win against decks like Zekrom. You don't have to rely on all that much luck either, depending on your list.
 
Most people don't play Weavile, but you reminded me: I never hit a single crushing hammer or lost remover. Regardless, though, they aren't that effective against most decks unless played 2 at a time imo. Just losing 1 energy isn't that big, most of the time they can just attach and attack. Only way they can seriously change a game consistently is if you hit them early on and can chain them. Otherwise, they have most likely drawn into enough energy to be able to attach and not simply say "Well shoot, pass". Plus, there is always Outrage.
 
I can think of a few reasons why Weavile is good in Durant.

Using Sneasel provides an extra starter, so you won't be getting mulligan after mulligan after mulligan. Though you may think mulligans are good, they are actually bad because it gives your opponent more cards they can use to get an attacker. By not getting mulligans, though there may be one or two extra cards in your opponents deck, denying your opponent the chance to get an attacker up by not giving, or at least trying not to give your opponent extra cards through mulligans. Sometimes a player can have a really good hand, but no basic. By giving two-three spaces for Sneasel, it is more likely that you will get a basic while you have a good hand. Also, there is no harm starting with Sneasel because Sneasel has a free retreat and a reasonable 80 HP.

Disruption is key. I have discarded important cards using Weavile in my Durant deck. I don't use any search cards for Weavile either, but eventually using a hand refresher, you'll get a Weavile. Sneasel will not be Catcher'd up and ko'd also. The main focus against Durant is to knockout the Durants so your opponent doesn't mill as much. A Pokémon Catcher will be used to knockout benched Durant instead of the Sneasel. Weavile discards potentially important cards such as possible attackers, energies needed for attacking, or even cards that are necessary in certain situations. Key discards can stall your opponent from attacking, giving one more turn for Durant to mill. If nothing else, Weavile will make one less card go back into your opponent's deck after they use a hand refresher such as PONT, or if the Durant player uses N.

Why not? It is a four-eight cards tech (depending on the Weavile line you run, I do not recommend 4-4 Weavile) with potential to disrupt and stall your opponent. Sneasel is a good starter, and Weavile isn't Pokémon Catcher bait because of it free retreat. With free retreating and Sneasek as a starter, Durant could actually gain consistency. Lost Remover and Crushing Hammer are used to disrupt your opponent, and Weavile shoud be used too.
 
glaceon said:
With free retreating and Sneasek as a starter, Durant could actually gain consistency.
Click to expand...
Umm... Weavile does NOT increase consistency at all. It lowers your chance of starting with Durant, meaning less of a chance of getting the T1 4-card mill. In addition, it raises the odds of a Durant being prized, which is never fun. PLUS, it takes away from space that could be used for cards that actually help consistency.

Weavile's not worth it imo. I'd rather run 4- or 3- or 2-of more stuff than have a 4-6 card tech in there. Unless you get pretty darn lucky, it's not going to turn a L into a W.
 
I'd just like to add that there is a positive side to mulligans, being that your opponent, unaware that you're playing Durant, will most likely draw an extra card with every mulligan and bring themselves closer to a deck out. That being said, I do think that Weavile is a good addition to the deck if used correctly.
 
Playing Weavile is a purely personal choice. It doesn't add any consistency, but it does add some more disruption. Them taking mulligans has pros and cons, but no matter what, Durant has a lot of luck involved. If you discard junk all game it's not going to matter to them. If you discard 3 Typhlosions T1, it will matter.

And no, nobody suggest Slowking because it doesn't work.
 
Quote:

Umm... Weavile does NOT increase consistency at all. I said could. How many times have you tested the deck with Weavile? It lowers your chance of starting with Durant, meaning less of a chance of getting the T1 4-card mill. For a consistent deck with Dual Ball and Pokémon Collector, it barely would. In addition, it raises the odds of a Durant being prized, which is never fun .How so? PLUS, it takes away from space that could be used for cards that actually help consistency. Like? The deck should already run 4 Juniper, 4 Twins, and 2-6 other consistency Supporters.


Added in bold.
 
I disagree that a strong Collector and Dual Ball line makes starting without Durant irrelevant. Even with 4 Collector and 4 Dual Ball you still have around a 25% chance (too lazy to do the actual math) of starting with one of each, while starting with a Durant means a lone Collector can fetch all of your Durant. Following up on that, you have a greater chance of having a Durant prized when its not in your opening hand since you place your prize cards after you have a hand with basics in it. So if you start with Durant, you have at most 3 Durant in 53 cards that could be prized, but if yo start without Durant you have 4 Drant in 53 cards that could be prized, a significant difference, and adding 2-3 Sneasel will decrease the chance of starting with a Durant by quite a bit.
 
glaceon said:
Umm... Weavile does NOT increase consistency at all. I said could. How many times have you tested the deck with Weavile? It lowers your chance of starting with Durant, meaning less of a chance of getting the T1 4-card mill. For a consistent deck with Dual Ball and Pokémon Collector, it barely would. In addition, it raises the odds of a Durant being prized, which is never fun. How so? PLUS, it takes away from space that could be used for cards that actually help consistency. Like? The deck should already run 4 Juniper, 4 Twins, and 2-6 other consistency Supporters.
Click to expand...

-It DOES take away from consistency for the reasons I mention later. How on Earth would it increase consistency? It's a tech; techs never increase consistency. If you think Weavile increases it, look up the definition of "consistency." I don't need to test it to know that.
-Even with 4 Dual Ball, 4 Collector, and 4 PokéGear you'll get times where you won't get 4 Durant T1. Adding Weavile increases those odds, and not by a negligible amount, either.
-Okay, so here's how it works: if you start with a Sneasel only, you have 4 Durant in the other 53 cards that could be prized. However, if you don't play Sneasel, you'll start with it less: that start would be a mulligan and you would redraw 7 until you got a Basic. Assuming you only play Durant, you will start with a Durant every time, with only 3 Durant in the other 53 cards. Having another one in there when you start with Sneasel makes it more likely to have a Durant prized.
-If I choose to run Weavile, I have to take out 4-6 cards. If I take it out, I can use those spaces to increase consistency: adding higher counts, say, or simply more Supporters. That means I have more consistency without Weavile.

Once again, I feel as though getting the optimal mill is more important than slowing the opponent down, which isn't likely even with Weavile. It's a personal preference, but at least until Level Ball comes out, I'm going with straight Durant and maybe Rotom as the better choice.
 
1) I am not an idiot. I said if played correctly it could increase consistency. Could!
2) If the deck is consistent enough you'll always get 3-4 Durant.
3) You saying to run Rotom totally contridictes what you say about this.
4) High counts of what? Tell me.

My responses to your statements.

We are beating a dead horse now.
 
1) No, it can't. Even though Durant mills, disrupts and stalls, adding another form of disruption doesn't add consistency, it just gives you more options to use. Weavile doesn't help you get Durant out every turn, or keep them alive.
2) 3-4 Durant ≠ 4 Durant.
3) Rotom can get Durant out of your prize cards, Weavile can't.
4) High counts of anything you had to cut to fit in Weavile

Weavile has a place in disruption decks, but he isn't necessary here. Neither is my idea about prism/rainbow+rotom. If they can help you win games, then play it, but they are just techs, optional ones at that. Durant plays most consistently as straight Durant, adding techs can just clutter up an extremely simple decklist.
 
glaceon said:
I can think of a few reasons why Weavile is good in Durant.

Using Sneasel provides an extra starter, so you won't be getting mulligan after mulligan after mulligan. Though you may think mulligans are good, they are actually bad because it gives your opponent more cards they can use to get an attacker.
The T1 4 Durant is more important than not giving them an extra 1-2 cards. Sneasel gets in the way of that. Besides, mulligans can be good. They have 47 cards in their deck after setup, mulligan twice and you took a turn off of the overall mill turns. However, they usually take these two cards off anyway shuffle-drawing into an attacker.

By not getting mulligans, though there may be one or two extra cards in your opponents deck, denying your opponent the chance to get an attacker up by not giving, or at least trying not to give your opponent extra cards through mulligans. Sometimes a player can have a really good hand, but no basic. By giving two-three spaces for Sneasel, it is more likely that you will get a basic while you have a good hand. Also, there is no harm starting with Sneasel because Sneasel has a free retreat and a reasonable 80 HP.
Sometimes a player has a really bad hand, but no basics. Add in Sneasel, and you could get stuck with a bad hand. The cards in your mulligan hand are ultimately irrelevant; saying adding Sneasel creates better starts is not only just superstition, but it's also not true. Sneasel does not have 80HP.

Disruption is key. I have discarded important cards using Weavile in my Durant deck. I don't use any search cards for Weavile either, but eventually using a hand refresher, you'll get a Weavile.
Weavile is best when used before your opponent is setup (turn two.) As good as hand disruption is, it's not going to help you if your opponent already has a bunch of attackers up.

Sneasel will not be Catcher'd up and ko'd also. The main focus against Durant is to knockout the Durants so your opponent doesn't mill as much. A Pokémon Catcher will be used to knockout benched Durant instead of the Sneasel.
The idea of any deck when going against Durant is to take six prizes. If they're using Donphan or Yanmega and can't OHKO an active Durant, they will KO the Sneasel. It speeds everything up by a turn, and chances are you have the Revive anyway.

Weavile discards potentially important cards such as possible attackers, energies needed for attacking, or even cards that are necessary in certain situations. Key discards can stall your opponent from attacking, giving one more turn for Durant to mill. If nothing else, Weavile will make one less card go back into your opponent's deck after they use a hand refresher such as PONT, or if the Durant player uses N.
True, although you'd hopefully remove the hand refresh via Weavile in the first place.

Why not? It is a four-eight cards tech (depending on the Weavile line you run, I do not recommend 4-4 Weavile) with potential to disrupt and stall your opponent. Sneasel is a good starter, and Weavile isn't Pokémon Catcher bait because of it free retreat. With free retreating and Sneasek as a starter, Durant could actually gain consistency. Lost Remover and Crushing Hammer are used to disrupt your opponent, and Weavile shoud be used too.
-4 consistency cards. +2-2 Weavile. Mind explaining how that has ANY potential to add to consistency? Durant is a better starter than Sneasel. And if you're going to go the, "but I wouldn't drop consistency" route, what cards would you drop? Weavile is Catcher+KO bait, since it has a bad weakness, low-HP basic, and lower HP than a Evolited Durant. I don't necessairly directly disagree with Weavile in the deck, but these are not the reasons to include it. The only reason is the second-to-last paragraph you had in here.
Click to expand...
I was very tempted to give this post Grains of Sand, because it has a lot of content, and the content is very well-explained. However, most of it is wrong. The reasons why are in bold, although some of it has already been covered.
 
I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but it's *slightly* obvious. Has anyone thought of catcher? I just thought it'd be great to stall, drag up a tech or something and mill them to death! mwahahaha. Could aipom ul be ok? It would have the same cons as weavile, but it would allow you to catcher a high retreat pokemon and keep it there for the remainder of the game as you mill/tail code
 
I like Catcher, but you can't mill and trap at the same time, and they can still Switch, so I don't like Aipom.
 
Catcher works well.


Quotes:

"The T1 4 Durant is more important than not giving them an extra 1-2 cards. Sneasel gets in the way of that. Besides, mulligans can be good. They have 47 cards in their deck after setup, mulligan twice and you took a turn off of the overall mill turns. However, they usually take these two cards off anyway shuffle-drawing into an attacker."

A consistent deck should get the T1 anyways. And N or PONT will shuffle the mulligan cards right back into their deck.

"-4 consistency cards. +2-2 Weavile. Mind explaining how that has ANY potential to add to consistency? Durant is a better starter than Sneasel. And if you're going to go the, "but I wouldn't drop consistency" route, what cards would you drop? Weavile is Catcher+KO bait, since it has a bad weakness, low-HP basic, and lower HP than a Evolited Durant. I don't necessairly directly disagree with Weavile in the deck, but these are not the reasons to include it. The only reason is the second-to-last paragraph you had in here."

I almost said "I wouldn't drop consistency cards".
The deck would just not use bad techs, and drop not-important lines. It is a 2-2 line, so it's not like it means taking out a ton of consistency cards. If their is not enough room simply don't use it, but it is good to out in if you have 3-4 spaces left in your deck, with 8-11 consistency cards, and everything else needed.
 
I think we need to get this Weavile thing into perspective;

Does it add consistency? No
Does it add a helpful level of disruption? Yes
Does it help Mill the opponents deck? No
Does it potentially stop your opponent from stopping your mill? Yes
Is it staple in Durant? No
Is it helpful in Durant? Yes

hopefully this should help stop the argument as it seems the whole debate is should Weavile be here? to which the answer is, Do you want it here?

If you want to attempt to stop your opponents set-up or stop them from wrecking yours I'd suggest Weavile, if you want to go pure aggro-mill then don't include it in your list
 
glaceon, I think you're misunderstanding what consistency means, since, if I recall correctly, you said somewhere about a Weavile inclusion would increase the deck's consistency. Consistency is basically how often you can setup (and quickly), you don't run out of draw steam in the middle of the game, you often open up with strong hands, or something along those lines. Now, HOW does Weavile ever increase that? Weavile doesn't give you any draw support, and with Durant's fast and strong milling, you should be able to strip your opponent from his or her resources. At this point, is Weavile really needed? I know this is extremely luck based, considering that you're dependent of what your opponent has remaining in his or her deck and what he or she has in his or her hand, but to be honest, with Durant's constant milling, great recovery, and general bulk with Eviolite, Defender, and Special Metal Energy, I see no reason why you would need to get rid of resources.

Looking at my list right now, there are so many cards I'd rather keep than cut it for a 2-2 line of Weavile. I'm not really seeing how I could squeeze it in, to be honest, without getting rid of some cards I need.

However, all in all, and with with Joey said, I believe that this comes down to player preference.
 
Again. I am not an idiot.

And you do not recall correctly. I said it could if played correctly. I have not tested it enough to say it increases or decreases consistency.

I also said if adding Weavile means cutting resources don't use it.

I guess it does come down to preference.
 
^Weavile does not increase consistency.

It does not: draw cards, search cards, remove cards from the prizes, create better starts, or refresh your hand. These are the things that define consistency. It does none of those things. You still haven't explained why Weavile "could" increase consistency if played correctly.
 
It actually does provide better starts, and the helpful free retreat is great.

Sneasel or Weavile can be sent up as subsistite for Durant in case Durant cannot attacking, making it so a Durant is not knocked out. Sneasel can be put active so it is knocked out instead of a Durant. If a start is a Sneasel and a Pokémon that has a retreat cost but isn't Durant (such as Sneasel), it makes getting out the Durant easier.


And this will be my final post on Weavile.
 
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