"Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. Great for finding what to Play for Cities and wh

[DawnOfXatu]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

A good majority of the decks you list as top tier are horribly and utterly defeated by Unown G. With Unown G protecting you, your only reliable attack in Gengar is Poltergeist, which isn't reliable at all. At that point all you have going for you is a flippy power and good basic, which isn't enough to overpower much.
Of course that is a good point. I believe that I made that point in some thread but I can't seem to remeber.

Your average Dusknoir is going to run 1 DP and 2 Shadow Command SF. This gives you a single attack that can be used to hurt a Pokemon with Unown G which only does 50 damage.
I don't consider Dusknoir to be any good after some testing. I think that it will end up being somewhere in the second tier

Machamp vs. a Basic Pokemon with Unown G won't even be damaged even if Machamp gets up on his first turn. Before you say 'what are the odds of that', they're better than your odds of getting of getting Machop and fighting energy and Rare Candy and Machamp. 2 > 4 in this case.
Unown G is just a tech so I really don't feel that this arguement is all that valid

It won't be fast, it won't be enough. And each of these decks will have a tough time with Scizor/Cherrim, who for some bizarre reason is not high on the list. I guess everyone forgot how ridiculously good that card is, as well as the new Tangrowth.
Scizor/Cherrim is on the first of the three lists. The lists are not in any specific order, AS STATED, so I don't really follow.

Tyranitar is both over and under rated. It will lose most likely to Scizor/Cherrim, but beats up the overhyped Gengar and Dusknoir.
Nothing wrong here

You've also gone and placed Luxray and GG, decks that won more BRs and have more history of being good this format than Empoleon, BELOW EMPOLEON. Empoleon is as good right now as my shoes are triangles.
How do you walk in those shoes? Empoleon is good it has a couple of Tournement wins. What it does have over GG and Luxray is that Empoleon has recieved a large amount of decent techs from SF. Luxray only recieved Energy Warp. GG only recieved Pokedrawer. I don't feel that Empoleon is going far in this format but I feel that it will do better than Luxray or GG

Hurricane just received amazing support in SF. Hurricane was great without Bronzong SF, and it only stopped seeing play thanks to GG last year. Hurricane is definitely a high-up deck.
I have personally tested Hurricane and the decks setup is just to difficult to be that good.

Garchomp should be on the line. It's a three energy card what can't take advantge of call energy and relies on a second stage 2 to get set up. As of my last check, Garchomp did not win a single BRs and doesnt really receive any support from this set.
I can see the arguement here but a well made Garchomp list could easily do well here. I personally have a Garchomp list that should be able to at least Top Cut if my prediction of the Metagame is correct

Arguements are in bold. I feel that you were mostly right although there are a couple of points that I feel should be made.

Narrow minded you say? I have taken the time to mention most of the decks in the DP-LA format (All of the good ones at least). I am trying to keep my debate purely factual. Plus what is wrong with establishing a "metagame"? The DP-LA format was disgusting with all of the decks floating around that only were able to win because they faced decks that were just barely worse. Last format all we did was say
1. Kingdra
2. AMU
3. Magnezone
Everything Else

What did that do. That led to a complete Rogue format giving all of the people who want to know what to play too many options. I find that this is much better IMHO.

 

[cappuccino]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

^Unown G is game-breaking. Dusknoir can't lay a finger on you with that card on and azelf x also. So did GG with sonic blade and bring down back in it's heyday. Don't underestimate the card.

Well, there really is no arguments now since the set isn't even hard-boiled tested yet. We'll just wait and see.

 

[Dimentio]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

I can't tell by your post but do you think that the decks on the first post are in any specific order?

I misread the list as being labeled in order of how powerfully they reign in our current metagame, my mistake. Though possibly to avoid confusion make the list as such? It would definately look much more formal and more like a tier list, as well as easier to decipher.

Raichu is already being debated for top tier so it can't go too much higher.

I shan't say where precisely each deck deserves to go, but Raichu deserves a high spot. Not as powerful as a whole as Garde/Gallade was, but the potential you see there easily can be interpreted into how well it will be played.

Dusknoir should end up being second tier so you don't have to worry about that.

Dusknoir belongs there. The hype is all for nothing spectacular, even the LvX does little extra to help Dusknoir with that kind of a Poke-Power. Plus, just adding the Dusknoir allows it to be opened up for hits by attacks dealing extra damage to Pokemon with Powers (If the previous form doesn't already have one...). 140 HP surely isn't something to scoff at, but the resistance is poor to other metagame decks apart from those from the MT era, and its Dark Weakness leaves a gap for it to be hit hard primarily by Tyranitar, who has some good potential.

Magnezone is where it should be and I will stick to that 'till the end.

The coming of Fire again says otherwise. Heatran hurts already, but weakness hurts it some more. I'm not saying terribly hurtful so as to make it non-existant, but it's there to put Magnezone in its place.

Torterrible also has been doing quite well and is only bolstered by the interesting techs added by SF.

Fire again wins this matchup especially. Which techs are you referring to, exactly, from Stormfronts?

 

[Dictator Dauntless]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

I don't consider Dusknoir to be any good after some testing. I think that it will end up being somewhere in the second tier

Unown G is just a tech so I really don't feel that this arguement is all that valid

How do you walk in those shoes? Empoleon is good it has a couple of Tournement wins. What it does have over GG and Luxray is that Empoleon has recieved a large amount of decent techs from SF. Luxray only recieved Energy Warp. GG only recieved Pokedrawer. I don't feel that Empoleon is going far in this format but I feel that it will do better than Luxray or GG

I have personally tested Hurricane and the decks setup is just to difficult to be that good.

I can see the arguement here but a well made Garchomp list could easily do well here. I personally have a Garchomp list that should be able to at least Top Cut if my prediction of the Metagame is correct

Arguements are in bold. I feel that you were mostly right although there are a couple of points that I feel should be made.

Dusknoir is still a threat. Not second tier.

Unown G should be in every deck that can fit it at this point.

What did Empoleon get? Another enemy in Raichu I guess.

I have tested it myself, and have found it to set up very well.

Sure, the same way Weavile/Lickilicky could do well.Any half decent deck built well can win. But Garchomp has no edge over anything.

 

[DawnOfXatu]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Both Torterrible and Zone have viable techs when it comes to dismantling your heavy setup Heatran Decks. Torterra Lv.X doesn't mind being back a few prizes and he likes his Dusknoir. Zone can just use the Super Connectivity to hit and switch before any damage and Palkia Lv.X has no problem bringing up a Heatran and AutoParalyzing it.


I will start to rearrange the decks into a power based hierarchy.

 

[ShotGunn415]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

I personally think mismagius should be bumped to tier 2. If you play it smart, you can be launching t2 80 for no energy. It's up to you though, this decision is based off of my testing

 

[DawnOfXatu]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

I love Mismagius but after awhile the game naturally turns in your opponents favor. If you can donk them then it is game over though.

 

[shocker_125]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

my idea of top meta game will be-

1.Raichu
2.Dusknoir
3.scizor/cherim/vespiquen-etc.
4.Kingdra
5.T-TAR

Honestly, i think that there really is no top deck. i mean the infernape theme deck isnt going to beat kingdra, but as for the top 5 goes, theres no real way to tell what the absolute best is, until worlds, or big events....and by worlds 09 there will be another couple expansions, and a whole new meta.

basically, i think that as long as you have one of these top 5 decks (even any deck on this thread's list
), are determined, and dedicated, your going to be big.

 

[DawnOfXatu]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

It doesn't take worlds to create a metagame. All you need to do is go to a Cities and you'll have a decent idea what the Metagame is.

 

[Papi/Manny]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

A good majority of the decks you list as top tier are horribly and utterly defeated by Unown G. With Unown G protecting you, your only reliable attack in Gengar is Poltergeist, which isn't reliable at all. At that point all you have going for you is a flippy power and good basic, which isn't enough to overpower much.

Your average Dusknoir is going to run 1 DP and 2 Shadow Command SF. This gives you a single attack that can be used to hurt a Pokemon with Unown G which only does 50 damage.

Machamp vs. a Basic Pokemon with Unown G won't even be damaged even if Machamp gets up on his first turn. Before you say 'what are the odds of that', they're better than your odds of getting of getting Machop and fighting energy and Rare Candy and Machamp. 2 > 4 in this case.

It won't be fast, it won't be enough. And each of these decks will have a tough time with Scizor/Cherrim, who for some bizarre reason is not high on the list. I guess everyone forgot how ridiculously good that card is, as well as the new Tangrowth.

Tyranitar is both over and under rated. It will lose most likely to Scizor/Cherrim, but beats up the overhyped Gengar and Dusknoir.

You've also gone and placed Luxray and GG, decks that won more BRs and have more history of being good this format than Empoleon, BELOW EMPOLEON. Empoleon is as good right now as my shoes are triangles.

Hurricane just received amazing support in SF. Hurricane was great without Bronzong SF, and it only stopped seeing play thanks to GG last year. Hurricane is definitely a high-up deck.

Garchomp should be on the line. It's a three energy card what can't take advantge of call energy and relies on a second stage 2 to get set up. As of my last check, Garchomp did not win a single BRs and doesnt really receive any support from this set.

Yay back from my donk ban. Anyways:
G is a decent tech but if you have room for multiple Gs (which is nessicary to make him work, espically against the cards he's trying to work against), your list is probably missing more, key, cards. Gengar is an easy matchup as long as you have a solid deck (and don't get donked by flips) and dusknoir is sluggish.
Gengar Vs. G: You've saved your claydol from utter wreckage. Yay. Now they have to fight for thier prizes. Thier flips will determine the game now.
Dusk Vs. G: Too easy to play around with dusk. Snipe your other pokes. :x
Machamp vs. G: He does have 3 other attacks (counting X), and lets face it, ALL of those OHKO any standard basic (the first needs a few heads, but has good odds, and champ lvl X just makes all 3 attacks go *BAM*)
Scizor/cherrim: Theres absolutely no draw engine that can support this deck. Without consistancy, the deck is relying on pure luck. It can work if it gets set-up....but any deck can. :/ It just a bulker t2tune.
Growth: Meh, it has decent stats all around, but requires stage 2s *sceppy* to do anything significant, which is a huge set-back.
T-tar is just beastily. A good list should be able to handle mostly anything that's thrown at it, besides possibly chu and machamp.
Triangular shoes were used for sex appeal back in the middle ages, so maybe you're looking for that. Anyways, emp is pretty much a dead card and I don't see hiim ever coming back.
Hurricane: I thought so too, but after building a quick list, I scrapped it because it had no reliable draw or search. It's very clunky and will not work very effectively very often for what you're looking for.
Chomp: It's pretty bad right now, but that promo chomp gives it life still.

 

[shocker_125]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

It doesn't take worlds to create a metagame. All you need to do is go to a Cities and you'll have a decent idea what the Metagame is.

thats why i said "or other big events"

 

[Ariadosguy]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Scizor/Cherrim doesn't really need a draw engine, as it hardly has to set up anything bar a couple of Stage 1's. With a decent trainer line, getting enough Cherrims so one Push Through and an Accelerate KO the opponent isn't too hard, and once you get this, only Warp Points can stop you and your opponent trading prizes (assuming they can consistently KO a 100 HP pokemon when they get the opportunity)... And of course it gets an early game lead.

...However, there are so many really great and powerful rogues that nobody can be bothered to try, but whatever.

 

[red blastoise]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

anyone who wants a draw engine in scizor/cherrim, hasn't read scizors 2nd attack.

evryone says garchomp is dead, it isn't its just back to his pokeball (joking =p)

garchomp is bad, togechomp however isn't.
with all metagame decks here (actually its all rougue) grchomp can fit with the weakness of your opp.

 

[Error]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Why does so many say that Garchomp is bad, i played it since it came out and it´s actually really good. 110 damage for three energys isn´t bad, and chomp Lv.X is incredible, both the power and the attack. With free retreat and warp point you can kill your opps benched too

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Dusknoir will be a tier one deck. Also, Blissey varients need at least a mention. With energy link, Blissey can be one tank of a Pokemon to bring down, still with the ability to attack T2. And Abomasnow. The ability to reduce 20 everywhere, and spread 20 everywhere (other then to certain pokes) for 2 colorless is awesome in this format.

 

[Dictator Dauntless]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Machamp vs. G: He does have 3 other attacks (counting X), and lets face it, ALL of those OHKO any standard basic (the first needs a few heads, but has good odds, and champ lvl X just makes all 3 attacks go *BAM*)
Scizor/cherrim: Theres absolutely no draw engine that can support this deck. Without consistancy, the deck is relying on pure luck. It can work if it gets set-up...but any deck can. :/ It just a bulker t2tune.
Growth: Meh, it has decent stats all around, but requires stage 2s *sceppy* to do anything significant, which is a huge set-back.
T-tar is just beastily. A good list should be able to handle mostly anything that's thrown at it, besides possibly chu and machamp.
Triangular shoes were used for sex appeal back in the middle ages, so maybe you're looking for that. Anyways, emp is pretty much a dead card and I don't see hiim ever coming back.
Hurricane: I thought so too, but after building a quick list, I scrapped it because it had no reliable draw or search. It's very clunky and will not work very effectively very often for what you're looking for.
Chomp: It's pretty bad right now, but that promo chomp gives it life still.

All of which require more than 1 energy, which he isn't likely to get on his first turn, therefore, giving your opponent some setup time.

Scizor neither wants or needs a draw engine beyond trainers and supporters.

Until then it's healing 40 a turn, not to mention Torterra requires two stage twos, not ONE and has done VERY well....

Raichu is probably dead even. Whoever gets set up faster I think. Their motor drives will give you tons of energy. Machamp has the advantage here, yes.

What are you talking about? Claydol? Bronzong? That's as much if not more search than Gengar Machamp or Dusknoir has. My list consistently grabs 5-7 energy for each Energy Cyclone, even on tremendously bad starts.

 

[Papi/Manny]

RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Machamp vs. G: He does have 3 other attacks (counting X), and lets face it, ALL of those OHKO any standard basic (the first needs a few heads, but has good odds, and champ lvl X just makes all 3 attacks go *BAM*)
Scizor/cherrim: Theres absolutely no draw engine that can support this deck. Without consistancy, the deck is relying on pure luck. It can work if it gets set-up...but any deck can. :/ It just a bulker t2tune.
Growth: Meh, it has decent stats all around, but requires stage 2s *sceppy* to do anything significant, which is a huge set-back.
T-tar is just beastily. A good list should be able to handle mostly anything that's thrown at it, besides possibly chu and machamp.
Triangular shoes were used for sex appeal back in the middle ages, so maybe you're looking for that. Anyways, emp is pretty much a dead card and I don't see hiim ever coming back.
Hurricane: I thought so too, but after building a quick list, I scrapped it because it had no reliable draw or search. It's very clunky and will not work very effectively very often for what you're looking for.
Chomp: It's pretty bad right now, but that promo chomp gives it life still.

All of which require more than 1 energy, which he isn't likely to get on his first turn, therefore, giving your opponent some setup time.

Scizor neither wants or needs a draw engine beyond trainers and supporters.

Until then it's healing 40 a turn, not to mention Torterra requires two stage twos, not ONE and has done VERY well....

Raichu is probably dead even. Whoever gets set up faster I think. Their motor drives will give you tons of energy. Machamp has the advantage here, yes.

What are you talking about? Claydol? Bronzong? That's as much if not more search than Gengar Machamp or Dusknoir has. My list consistently grabs 5-7 energy for each Energy Cyclone, even on tremendously bad starts.

His second attack takes 2 and anything beyong that is just a registark away. And you really can't be getting that far set-up when your sitting with a basic active.
Yeah, and then it scoops to anything playing wager. Scizor is the new t2 tune and thus is build of fail.
40? What? And there is a HUGE difference between torterra and growth. 140 hp>110 hp. OHKO attacks>60 and spread or disruption. Unholy comeback potential with power>....none. Torterra can actually go turbo for a while because of its huge hp. Growth can only stall out until it gets rolling (and even then, it's not overly impressive).
It honestly depends on energy pick-up flips in this case. If chu nails a few, t-tar has very little chance, even with god start.
Bronzong isn't search, its just a clefebale that's improved. lol. Your active is gatr, bench gatr, claydol, bronzong. Already clunky and there is no steven's advice in this format, or anything else to nab alot of water energies for that matter. By the time you have that cycle going, the opponet has probably drawn 3-5 prizes and can cheap shot it's way home.

 

[DawnOfXatu]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

If you can setup Hurricane without getting behind 2-3 prizes then you should be able to make a decent match. But with Raichu and Machamps speed factor Hurricane's start falters and ultimately results in the sacrafice of techs in order to get a Gatr running.

 

[Dictator Dauntless]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

So you could get the following T1 hand consistently--Machamp, Rare Candy, Machop, Fighting Energy, Stark Mountain, Regirock, Felicity's Drawing. Because that's pretty much the only way you're getting two energy on in your first turn., and only if Felicity's Drawing yields another fighting energy for you.

Except that Scizor only needs itself to do 70 damage, can increase past that, has an auto agility attack, and a great defense with low HP, has more HP, and is more consistent. And that Scizor can go past that damage with Cherrim, and that they can do a billion other things....Also, whatever Scizor draws into, it probably uses immediately, so Wager just gives a new hand, probably bigger than the one it already has.

A good build will have Sunflora, Dawn Stadium, and Pokehealer+, so anything beyond a OHKO will be mostly ineffective, which only the fire cards can deliver at all. Oh and with Energy Trans and Power WHip, huge sniping is possible. So yeah, it's nothing but a better Magmortar. That's not good I guess.

Show me your list that fits all of these things with Raichu, and then we talk.

I don't see anything clunky about that. Last time I checked my list has lost 2 matches out of twelve, those being very close, coming down to a last prize scenario. By the time I have my cycle going, it's probably my second turn.

 

[DawnOfXatu]

RE: "Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. People please come and help find the Metagame.

You don't need to T1 Hurricane Punch. A T1 Drop is still in the fairly probable range so a T1 Hurricane Punch is rather far and widely viewed as an improbablility.

If you start your cycle T2 with Hurricane then it is at least a weakened version. Most decks have enough of an attack force early game to be able to KO if not come close to KOing that early Gatr you have running.