"Top of the Format" Now starting to tier the decks. Great for finding what to Play for Cities and wh

RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

i think riachu has great potential hitting claydol and youe main attacker 1-2 KO's in one turn is awesome! it's also easy to do riachu's 100 damage attack a couple times in a row with electivire or keep 80 sniping. but i guess it's not the best one it's just my favorite and i think it can do good. machamp is OK but it's attacks are to costly, i am making a machamp variant right now and it seems to do good.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

Machamp really shouldn't see more than 2 energies on it unless you specifically charge it up for a big KO. Most of the time in my deck I just get two energies on Machamp and then use Hurricane Punch or Take Out whichever is more appropriate.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

I play with Lucario and spread damage around, making OHKO's easier with Hurricane Punch.

Personally, I'd say Machamp, Gengar, Dusknoir, Magnezone, and Cherim (varients may differ) will be the top decks played.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

Machamp needs a big speed-up to make it big. I mean 4 energies is impossible to get out unless you play regirock-stark mountain. Still, I don't think machamp deserves a spot on the list. Back to reality, very few decks out there are playable whether you like it or not. Sad fact.

But the deck that may see play, I'm not sure hence 'may', kingdra, froslass, AMU, gengar. Gliscor will, but that's out of the topic. And I don't have confidence in dusknoir.

You all say kingdra will be outclassed but let's not forgot T2 speed. That's something most heavy decks like machamp and dusknoir can't do and that's what will make them crumble.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

You totally forgot "Bomb Factory". The electrode deck that goes with almost any other pokemon to disrupt your opponent.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

i kinda lost in this discussion.

so we are looking for the best metagamer right?
my top 5 is
1-Banbliss
2-GG
3-Empo variant(more specifically empozong)
4-luxxray
5-Garkiss? maybe

i remember one rogue that wins recent BR in my country

the weird+strong+just weird deck which i would call magnivirexrayzelf deck which surprisingly works
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

MetalFire said:
I kinda lost in this discussion.

so we are looking for the best metagamer right?
my top 5 is
1-Banbliss
2-GG
3-Empo variant(more specifically empozong)
4-luxxray
5-Garkiss? maybe

I seriously rolled on the floor laughing.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

yeah...

i was laughing hard when typing those decks.but then again those are still good( although a bit out of date)
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

Yeah those are all fairly out dated but never the less they are OK. It seems as if your BR's aren't willing to move on from HP-ON.

As for Machamp being slow. Your Kingdra needs (To KO opponents starter)
1 Horsea
1 Candy
1 Kingdra
1 Water
2 Unneeded Cards
1 PP (Sometimes not needed)
That is exactly 7 cards meaning that if you go second you need that in your hand or a supporter that will get you all that you are missing.

Machamp needs:
1 Machop
1 Candy
1 Machamp
1 Fighting
That is a whole lot less. I play Machamp with Ball Engine so my T1 Machamp Donk is somewhere around 20 percent. (I did the math but I don't feel like posting it)

The whole "WFT 4 NRGZ!!!!1!" is quite a pain for all Machamp players to hear. I can T1 donk your start and then as you scramble to get setup I can load a benched Machop and then evolve. 130 HP is a lot to take down. Especially without your starter/main pokemon. If you get a card up that can take out my Machamp then so be it. Only after do you realize that was just my start and I have a Machamp with 2-3 Energies on it with a Premier Ball in hand.

Slow may I ask... I laugh at the theory.


For the rest of you people are there any decks that I can go seperate into a rouge area? Or do you all think that they have the ability to metagame? lol
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

That is what I was saying above. Machamp is great, because it does very well early game compared to a few decks such Tyranitar, Hurricane, Magnezone, and Dusknoir (to some extent, because it can get early spreads going). But, it also has the power to keep on going all through Mid game and with fancy footwork, all the way untill a Win or a Loss. Most Machamp Players will keep two energy on a Machamp, and save the third energy for the Machamp that will become the Lv.X. If you already set up said 3 Machamps, energy can go all over the place. I personally haven't used RegiStark yet (though I plan to try it), but I do play Stark, and it is very easy to hit with Hurricane Punch every turn.

I think there is no debate that these three cards will be in the Top 5 of the Metagame:

-Machamp
-Gengar
-Dusknoir

All three have speed, can do well early game through late game, and all have components of the deck that make you have to play carefully and always be on guard. These cards also have had the most discussion, and they will be played. Can we agree on this?

As for the other two decks, I personally would say that there are several contenders for the spot. They include:

-Magnezone
-Tyranitar
-Hurricane
-Raichu
-Regigigas
-Heatran Varients
-Chermin Varients
-Kingdra

All thouse decks have possibility. The problem with most of them (being Magnezone, Tyranitar, Hurricane, Raichu, Regigigas, and Heatran) is that they require set up.

Magnezone needs you to get out 2 Zones at the least (whatever varient you play, you need 2 Zone), one being a Lv.X. The plus side is that because of the various techs you play, you can get around Heatran Varients.

T-Tar needs to get some tech set up (usually Alakazam) and get a good flow of Dark Energies into the discard pile, and Level Up a Darkrai (all of this is do-able by T3/4, but it will take a starter, a T2 Claydol, and some good draws). Weakness to fighting is not great because of Machamp, but this card is resistant to Psychic (which will probably be played the most in the new Metagame, along with Grass) and the Ghost pokemon of the Metagame are weak to T-Tar.

Hurricane can attack T2, but it does not allow you enough time to thin your deck, and you may not be able to get the Water Energy to score early KOs. Weakness to Electric is no biggy, since Raichu doesn't hit the OHKO unless it uses it's attack for 100. Sniping off your techs can hurt, but it's low HP is it's down fall, and Feraligatr can easily dispose of Raichu quickly.

Raichu does have a 0 energy attack, but for 30 and can't use it next turn? Your not going to live on that, I can tell you. You need 3 Energy for 3 of it's 4 attacks (the other attack being the 0 energy attack) and for some of it's attacks you need to have certain cards in your hand. Weakness to fighting bites, but the fact that you can snipe for 80 is good, but the fact that Raichu has low HP and high energy costs could hurt in the end.

Regigigas can be easy to set up because all it will take is a few Early Call/Roseanne, but it may hurt you to continually Sacrafice pokemon so Regigigas can attack. Machamp also gives this deck some major problems with OHKOs, and Gengar can be hard matchup.

Heatran is a good card if you can set it up. But the thing is, it isn't the main attacker, meaning you have to make Heatran active so you can get to the Lv.X, and then get him back to the bench. It can be done inbetween your opponent KOing your pokemon, but you have to go a little heavy on the Warp Point/Switch. After you set up Heatran Lv.X, you have to also set up your main attacker. Like T-Tar, this can be done early game, but requires some very fancy footwork. The only water in sight next Metagame is Hurricane and Kingdra, but Empoleon might decide to make a scene in Tier 2. Water weakness does hurt though, especially since the Water pokemon will have an easier time with KOs.

Cherim is great because it just sits on the bench. It is easy to activate, and it is also easy to set up your main attacker, since most pokemon that use Cherim are pokemon with 1-2 Energy attacks (Scizor, Butterfree, Cradily, Vespiqueen, +more) and most cards used with Cherim are set up by T2. This card has the speed component, but my only fear is that it won't be able to hold up Late game, since a lot of decks this format can take a beating. Fire weakness is something to worry about, but your speed is what keeps you going.

Kingdra losses some of it's spotlight with the appearance of the new cards, but it does not lose it's greatness. Bronzong is a new tech to play with, and there may be a few cards that could prove to be interesting techs. High HP is great, and Kingdra has the same issues with Raichu that Hurricane does, that is, problems with sniping off techs, but avoiding the OHKO on your active. Gengar does not do as well with Kingdra, because even if Fainting Spell strikes a Kingdra or two, the speed in which Kingdra can regenerate makes it walk all over Gengar. Dusknoir might give you some problems with the fact that there will be a lot of energy on your pokemon and Dusknoir can prevent damage done to itself from pokemon 2 or less energy, but it can be played around.



What I think will happen is that T-Tar will make into Top 5, because like with Banette last season, it was a counter to the Metagame but also a viable deck to play. There are several variations to playing it giving it a suprise factor if your opponent doesn't know you what variation you are using, and it can hold it's own against cards that it wasn't there to counter. It seems with the decks this Metagame you either are a speed killer, or a set up killer. Starters are going to see more play in the new Metagame because a lot of decks need the help setting up. T-Tar does use Starter (in some variatons), but it also has good speed and consistancy.

Because now there are two Speed Decks (Gengar, Machamp) and two decks that benefit from set up but don't need it win (Dusknoir, T-Tar), that means one balanced deck will most likely make it in. I think Cherim varients will be played a lot, because it has Speed, Consistancy, can use Starters (probably Sableye or Pachi), and can do well in battle. Shaymin Lv.X always helps out the grass decks, but right now we don't have it. I think Butterfree and Vespiqueen will be the prefered choice, but there will always be Cradily, Scizor (a card that does better with Shaymin Lv.X, as Butterfree), and perhaps even Magmortar (probably not very much).

I think these two slots are open for debate, but seriously: Dusknoir, Machamp, and Gengar will be in Top 5. No matter how much you talk about "what-if" situations, they will be there. T-Tar will probably be there too because it does very well agaisnt Gengar and Dusknoir, but also against the rest of the Metagame.



On a small side note, here are some techs I think could see great play:

-Omastar
Devolves Gengar so that you can KO without the risk of being KOd.
-Electivire Lv.X [only in already electric decks]
Gets rid of Dusknoir Lv.X Stadium and you become immune for a turn.
- Xatu/Health Energy
Helps keep Heatran Lv.X and Magnezone Lv.X in check.
- Bastiodon
Saves you from Snipes, which from T-Tar, can really wear down on your techs/pokemon that havne't evolved yet.
- Mr. Mime
This card will save you from Sableye. It needs Unown G to be safe from Machamp and Gengar though.
- Unown G
So many effects of attacks in this new Metagame. Machamp, Gengar, Dusknoir, Magnezone, Cherim (varients that can inflict special conditions), and Heatran (varients that can inflict Burn).

Anyone care to debate/add?
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

DawnOfXatu said:
Yeah those are all fairly out dated but never the less they are OK. It seems as if your BR's aren't willing to move on from HP-ON.

misunderstanding here..
those are decks that IMO are still consider great decks.my BR's are already DP-on.at the recent BR
there are mostly AMU,kingdra,luxray and frosslass were in play but still the winner was actually a very weird deck which i once again would call 'magnivirexrayzelf' deck
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagam

My T5:

1. Scizor/Cherrim
2. Dusknoir
3. Gengar
4. Kingdra
5. Torterra variants

NOTE:T-tar is not on here because I have not seen him yet.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Are you looking for the top 5 decks entering cities?

1) Raichu: This card is just dominent and unless you can beat chu with your deck, don't play the deck.
2) Machamp: Has power across the board and has a winning chu matchup, so he gets the thumbs up here.
3) Spread decks: Can sometimes work with chu. Theres just too many of them to list, but I think we all know what I'm referring to.
4) Other "fatty" decks besides machamp: Things like tyranitar, salamence, luxury (though not really a "fatty" lol), and torterra all fall under this catigory. Pokemon that can constantly beat opponets down (reason why champ isn't here) but generally lose to raichu (reason why champ isn't here).
5) Dusknoir: Works as a mixture of spread and raichu. Relatively balanced act, and a good list can cause very painful actions to follow.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Since everybody seems to fall in love with Raichu and Machamp so much, I'm going to post an entirely different top 5, just because. ^^

1) ScizRim /VespiRim
Even though we're talking about a 100 HP main attacker here, be it Scizor or Vespiquen, it has everything it needs on his side. Speed, power late-game, low energy costs, and even invincibility/healing. A 1-0-1 Torterra SF can help get out the Rim army, and a Rim can also go out for a quick finisher when needed. Even with that, the deck still has enough room to fit in a ton of Pluspowers and Buck's, making the damage output nothing to laugh at. This is without a doubt the new Kingdra.

2) Dusknoir variants
Dusknoir is not only a constant draw engine, totally rendering Claydol obsolete, his first attack (Even Damage?) is also nothing to laugh at. After a few turns of hanging around on the bench and eating its own damage, you can send it up, Level it up and use his first attack for a mere 2 energy to shoot down one bench Poke of choice, preferably a Claydol/Cherrim/random supporting act. Then just let it get shot down and let the Ectomagic begin, effectively giving your opponent a countdown timer until it's game. Add a Frosslass or the Chill Dusknoir to stall and speed things up (lol, contradictory much?) and this is a deck to fear.

3) Mamoswarm
With a 140 HP stage 2 and not being a LV X, Mamoswine is one of the beasts this format. Sure, it's ridiculously slow without a RegiStark to lend him a hand, but with the addition of TM-TS 1, the damage that Parade can dish out is enough to OHKO most things that dare cross its path. And with L resistance, there's no way you can go wrong. The weakness and retreat costs are bad, though, and it needs Memory Berry to Flail, which isn't out yet. Still, a very nice card, although very vulnerable to Dusknoir DP. Definitely the new and maybe improved Bellawesome.

4) Tyraniterror (not necessarily with Darkrai)
Sure, it has an insane setup time and an autoloss against some decks, but it makes up for that by the ability to decide a game in 2 or 3 turns. With some stalling, sacrificing and Pokehealing, getting out 1 of these beasts fully charged can already mean a win. Still, lots of decks outspeed this, snipe its support, and it's probably not reliable enough to make it through a whole tournament. But I'd like to see him try.

5) Torterra
With the new Torterra auto-evolving the bench, this deck might actually stand a chance. I always disliked it because of its speed issues, but some of those are gone now. Still, in the new format, 100 damage will not be sufficient to OHKO most main attackers out there, and it still needs a vulnerable Sceptile benched, food for spread and Gengar.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Raichu isn't that good. You can play the deck well that is without a doubt but the instability of the deck leads to its destruction. AMU faced a similar problem with being too fragile and required a couple of turns of setup time. I will test a newly built Raichu deck of mine but 100 a turn with 1 turn every once and awhile of 180 or double 80 snipe isn't enough to destroy most of the bigger decks. I like the Scizor Cherrim variants more than Raichu because there are just more techs and a larger chance of getting one out fast. The same problem still arises. It is fragile. This deck has a large amount of trouble getting that setup and Torterra can shut down your Scizors extra damage.

Would someone mind posting a decklist of Dusknoir that they have found to work? I tried one of the most common decklists that I could find and the deck only won 1 out of 6. Not the kind of odds that I look for in my decks.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

Before anyone does, I'd like to point out that Tentacruel is a fantastic tech for that non-Shadow Orders Dusknoir (Spirit Pulse).
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

That is an OK combo.

I still find that you need the Shadow Order Dusknoir more because the drawpower is more important than a small amount of spread.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" Entering Part 2. People please come and help find the Metagame.

DawnOfXatu said:
Raichu isn't that good. You can play the deck well that is without a doubt but the instability of the deck leads to its destruction. AMU faced a similar problem with being too fragile and required a couple of turns of setup time. I will test a newly built Raichu deck of mine but 100 a turn with 1 turn every once and awhile of 180 or double 80 snipe isn't enough to destroy most of the bigger decks. I like the Scizor Cherrim variants more than Raichu because there are just more techs and a larger chance of getting one out fast. The same problem still arises. It is fragile. This deck has a large amount of trouble getting that setup and Torterra can shut down your Scizors extra damage.

Would someone mind posting a decklist of Dusknoir that they have found to work? I tried one of the most common decklists that I could find and the deck only won 1 out of 6. Not the kind of odds that I look for in my decks.
Instability? Explain because the chu is destroying YOUR stablity. 80 snipe to claydol, followed with either another snipe, 100, or 50 and move an energy is absolutely incredible. Chu can CONSTANTLY draw 2 prizes, and with the proper list, theres virtually no way to prevent this from happening every other turn (the other turns the chu player is still attacking, but probably for not as much). Of course, the other option, spread chu, can OHKO 2 of your attackers relatively easily just with his X's attack. Chu definately have more techs then scizor. Heck, scizor can't even effectively use a draw engine because his damage output goes down dramatically.

Pokemon (24):
4 duskull I think dp is best , unless can get shineys
3 duskclops (DP)<spreads on heads, hits dusknoir on tails
3 dusknoir (2 new, 1 old?) or 3 new <sniping to the max with draw or disruption (both are good)
1 dusknoir lvl X< spread
2 Spiritomb <more spread
1 Azelf<power
1 Azelf X <no weakness and snipe
2 Bronzor<both are okay, MD for conditions, FS for spread
2 Bronzong<MD for spread
1 Baltoy
1 claydol<draw
1 Marreep
1 Flaffy
1 Amphy<spread with body
Energy (15):
4 call
10 psychic
1 lighting
Trainers (21):
4 bebe’s
4 roseanne’s
1 luxury ball
2 night maitence
4 Candy
4 wager
2 Warp point/etc.

My rogue draft of dusk. It beat my chu list...
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

DawnOfXatu said:
Yeah those are all fairly out dated but never the less they are OK. It seems as if your BR's aren't willing to move on from HP-ON.

As for Machamp being slow. Your Kingdra needs (To KO opponents starter)
1 Horsea
1 Candy
1 Kingdra
1 Water
2 Unneeded Cards
1 PP (Sometimes not needed)
That is exactly 7 cards meaning that if you go second you need that in your hand or a supporter that will get you all that you are missing.

Machamp needs:
1 Machop
1 Candy
1 Machamp
1 Fighting
That is a whole lot less. I play Machamp with Ball Engine so my T1 Machamp Donk is somewhere around 20 percent. (I did the math but I don't feel like posting it)

The whole "WFT 4 NRGZ!1!" is quite a pain for all Machamp players to hear. I can T1 donk your start and then as you scramble to get setup I can load a benched Machop and then evolve. 130 HP is a lot to take down. Especially without your starter/main pokemon. If you get a card up that can take out my Machamp then so be it. Only after do you realize that was just my start and I have a Machamp with 2-3 Energies on it with a Premier Ball in hand.

Slow may I ask... I laugh at the theory.


For the rest of you people are there any decks that I can go seperate into a rouge area? Or do you all think that they have the ability to metagame? lol

Yeah, I have to agree machamp has the donk factor early game but it doesn't have the consistancy kingdra has because machamp's second attack is so very luck dependant and not to mention machamp can't stand a fatality needing at least 2 energies to use it's second attack. True, machamp is greater in many ways but the special thing about kingdra is it's ability to recover quick. Something that most decks can't do.
 
RE: "Top of the Format" (DP-SF)

Thou Shall Sleep said:
DawnOfXatu said:
Yeah those are all fairly out dated but never the less they are OK. It seems as if your BR's aren't willing to move on from HP-ON.

As for Machamp being slow. Your Kingdra needs (To KO opponents starter)
1 Horsea
1 Candy
1 Kingdra
1 Water
2 Unneeded Cards
1 PP (Sometimes not needed)
That is exactly 7 cards meaning that if you go second you need that in your hand or a supporter that will get you all that you are missing.

Machamp needs:
1 Machop
1 Candy
1 Machamp
1 Fighting
That is a whole lot less. I play Machamp with Ball Engine so my T1 Machamp Donk is somewhere around 20 percent. (I did the math but I don't feel like posting it)

The whole "WFT 4 NRGZ!1!" is quite a pain for all Machamp players to hear. I can T1 donk your start and then as you scramble to get setup I can load a benched Machop and then evolve. 130 HP is a lot to take down. Especially without your starter/main pokemon. If you get a card up that can take out my Machamp then so be it. Only after do you realize that was just my start and I have a Machamp with 2-3 Energies on it with a Premier Ball in hand.

Slow may I ask... I laugh at the theory.


For the rest of you people are there any decks that I can go seperate into a rouge area? Or do you all think that they have the ability to metagame? lol

Yeah, I have to agree machamp has the donk factor early game but it doesn't have the consistancy kingdra has because machamp's second attack is so very luck dependant and not to mention machamp can't stand a fatality needing at least 2 energies to use it's second attack. True, machamp is greater in many ways but the special thing about kingdra is it's ability to recover quick. Something that most decks can't do.
So very luck dependant? It swings for 60+ over 50% of the time. It swings for 0 only 8.75% (I'm not going to do the math here, but I believe this is correct). I'll take those kind of odds anytime. Regirock helps champ with the energy issue, and champ can take multiple hits (espically with some decent luck with his X's attack), adding more energy to champ's feild (which, let's face it, is not a good thing for pretty much any deck).
 
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