Finished Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves

[Celever]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

alex has 2 good defensive cases against these accusation. You missed one of them:

I haven't been voting for no NL since the first couple hours of the game...

and that point in and of itself makes the other point ~~fairly moot. I'd still like it if alex said the other thing we might be thinking he could say as a defence, but it's not really that important, because his above post in and of itself answers the accusation perfectly.

And it's true! After he got so much slack for suggesting a no lynch, he said something like "OK then answer this Camoclone" and promptly voted for him. He actually didn't have his lynch on no vote for at least 2 irl days I believe.

So people are finally echoing my accusation on Teal again? KoN even has the same accusation I did about the PR revealing. The more I think about it, I do think that I overreacted and it is probably a less scummy move than I thought, so that's good at least. I've still got my eye on him, though.

Also lol. Imagine if all of the actives were town and the inactives were wolves, letting us fight between us to our eventual doom. That'd be fun! ^_^

Also because bold is ever so important and noticeable on this site:
##UNCYAN: Teal
##TWISTED: TwistedTurtwig

 

[alex]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

Ok I somehow missed every single post before Haunted Waters post about me wanting a NL that I replied to. Let me catch up and I will reply in about half an hour when I am at a computer.

 

[GM DracLord]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

That was much to absorb. I stand on not saying much since I don't know much at this point. It's only day 1 and I'm still confused

 

[Haunted Water]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

KoN, just because alex has been following Celever doesn't clear him.
I once played a game where I was scum using the same tactic (following a confo). I slipped by every day. I ended up being the sole winner of that game.

 

[Keeper of Night]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

^I know that. My point was that he followed Celever before he was confirmed town.

 

[alex]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

Why did I think No Lynch was the best? Why did I drop No Lynch so quickly?

I believe, as I have always believed, that No Lynching is often the best lynch on Day 1. This is for 2 reasons that I have already talked about: 1) Too much risk of being led by a wolf or wolves. Obviously 0% chance of hitting a wolf if this happens. 2) The lack of information, so that even if the lynch is led by a town there is a limited chance of hitting a wolf. Not only is there almost always a lack of physical information D1, there is also very limited information that can be gained from scumhunting as there has not been much discussion yet.
Now, why did I drop my push on No Lynch? Also 2 reasons: 1) Both of the reasons listed in the reasons for No Lynching were fairly cleared up. We are being led by Celever, a confirmed town (celebrity, in mafia talk), and while we do not have any actual evidence there has been a huge amount of discussion to scumhunt from, and I trust Celever's scumhunting. 2) I think it was pretty obvious that a No Lynch was not going to happen.
Now, a lot of you are paraphrasing and extremely exaggerating things I've said out thin air about how much I wanted a No Lynch, as Camoclone was doing with what I said about agreeing with Celever. I don't think I need to point out how extremely scummy it is to do this, but I will. It shows that you are not trying to lynch simply based off of what I have said and what you think about it, but it shows you are trying to explain your lynch and get others to lynch by making things up. I'll show a couple examples of this. Here is what was said about how much I wanted a No Lynch:

Didn't you want a no lynch no matter what?

And building off of what Athena said, you didn't think twice about forgoing your custom to always vote for No Lynch on D1.

Here's what I actually said:

##Vote: No Lynch

As a lot of you should already know I am a strong protagonist of the D1 NL when we have no info.

In reply to Machamp the Champion's question directed at me, you stop NLing when you have enough of an informational lead to lynch someone (or if that lynch will give information), or if enough scumhunting as been done and a good lead has been found that way. This almost always happens D2.

"Just because Celever is confirmed town does not mean he is right"

Yeah, I think that should be obvious that it does not mean he is right. But why are your ideas right? Why are your FOSs any better than Celever's? That's right, they aren't. But you know what Celever has over you? He can be trusted. By all of us. Which means that we actually KNOW we have a chance of hitting a wolf, unlike if anybody else led the lynch. Take Camoclone's bandwagon on me for example. Camoclone got a ton of players to vote on me, but (looking at this from an outside point of view, not as the one getting lynched) what if Camoclone is a wolf? We have no way of knowing whether or not he is, and thus the lynch is a lot more risky than if a confirmed town was leading. I probably explained this in the most confusing way possible but w/e I didn't really know how else to do it.

Miscellaneous

Teal: I won't say why alex changed. I know why, but I'll let him explain himself so as to not give him any legitimate reasons.

PMJ, I'm a little confused by this. What are you implying you know?

Alex is blindly following Celever and he has been since before Celever was confo-town. I don't like it. I find TT scummy but to a much lesser degree.

I still find it hilarious how you think that me and Celever "buddying" means if one of us is scum the other must be, but now that Celever is confirmed town you still think I'm scum for "buddying" with him (because as scum I'd have so much to gain from protecting someone who wasn't town? idk).

TL;DR: If you are voting me you better go back and read it. If you aren't idrc.

 

[Athena]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

Seems like you just waited to see if more people would vote before trying to come up with a good excuse for jumping the lynch.

Nah, I'm just a hesitant voter, most of the time; I generally prefer to wait as long as possible before putting down a (non-joke, anyway) vote. Thinking about it, I think part of it is that I'm used to plurality lynches instead of majority lynches, but in the case of a majority voting system, it seems more important/favourable for informational purpose to have votes and swap them as necessary. I could be misinterpreting this, but oh well. Part of it is also that I have a more trusting nature in general in WW as opposed to the more paranoid end of the spectrum which is most common (and probably a better way to play, but I just can't change my personality).

Yeah, I think that should be obvious that it does not mean he is right. But why are your ideas right? Why are your FOSs any better than Celever's? That's right, they aren't. But you know what Celever has over you? He can be trusted. By all of us. Which means that we actually KNOW we have a chance of hitting a wolf, unlike if anybody else led the lynch. Take Camoclone's bandwagon on me for example. Camoclone got a ton of players to vote on me, but (looking at this from an outside point of view, not as the one getting lynched) what if Camoclone is a wolf? We have no way of knowing whether or not he is, and thus the lynch is a lot more risky than if a confirmed town was leading. I probably explained this in the most confusing way possible but w/e I didn't really know how else to do it.

See, the thing is... I know Celever is inno, but I also know that I'm inno. You and everyone else might not know that I'm inno, but at this point it doesn't really matter, because the same can be said for every other player aside from Camo, and I'm not speaking for anyone else anyway, I'm speaking for myself. Sure, I can trust Celever, but I can also trust myself, and seeing the leaps Celever was making earlier, well, I'm a lot more likely to trust my own judgment and leads than I am someone elses, even if I know I can trust that player's affiliation, I still trust my own thinking skills more.

I don't object to you following Celever specifically, I object to you blindly choosing to follow someone rather than think for yourself. You're worried about wolves leading a lynch and would rather be led by Celever, but to that I say: why do you have to be led at all? Why can't you and everyone else think and discuss and reason rather than simply sheeping along with someone else's vote solely based on the fact that the voter is innocent? Any move that advocates following another player rather than encouraging people to think for themselves is a bad move in my eyes. And all your vote is saying is "I don't want to think so I'll let Celever think for me."

 

[alex]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

See, the thing is... I know Celever is inno, but I also know that I'm inno. You and everyone else might not know that I'm inno, but at this point it doesn't really matter, because the same can be said for every other player aside from Camo, and I'm not speaking for anyone else anyway, I'm speaking for myself. Sure, I can trust Celever, but I can also trust myself, and seeing the leaps Celever was making earlier, well, I'm a lot more likely to trust my own judgment and leads than I am someone elses, even if I know I can trust that player's affiliation, I still trust my own thinking skills more.

I don't object to you following Celever specifically, I object to you blindly choosing to follow someone rather than think for yourself. You're worried about wolves leading a lynch and would rather be led by Celever, but to that I say: why do you have to be led at all? Why can't you and everyone else think and discuss and reason rather than simply sheeping along with someone else's vote solely based on the fact that the voter is innocent? Any move that advocates following another player rather than encouraging people to think for themselves is a bad move in my eyes. And all your vote is saying is "I don't want to think so I'll let Celever think for me."

Because as a town we need to vote together, and I sure am not going to vote for whoever you think we should lynch. And a lot of other people won't either. And it's the same with me. One thing the whole town can agree with is voting whoever Celever wants lynched.

 

[Celever]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

Athena I homestly don't agree with alex's play today either, with all of his sheeping. It honestly seems like he's trying to, for lack of a better term, flirt me into trusting him. I don't know if this is because he is scum, desperate not to be lynch, or both, but I don't think it's too bad, honestly.

Not as bad as the idlers, anyway.

The leaps and bounds I made earlier int he game were to apply as much pressure to players as possible, and Teal just happened to be the first person I could build a case upon. Day 1 is about reactions, as most WW players know, and because of my role, I had that safety net. I've honestly never played with my role before in a game (I've had town inno childs, just not ones which you physically have to use) but I wanted to do a couple things by using my role so early:
See if Pokebeach worked well with a Town Leader system. Results right now point to negative.
Have that safety net from the start. I can be as scummy as I want and you guys know I am town, which is a liberty few players have.
Be able to apply lots of pressure with leaps and bounds against a certain player and not be called out on it.
BUDDYING WITH EVERYONE!!!

However, my lynch on TT isn't pressure. I am actually somewhat confident about lynching him, and it's sure as hell better than lynching a random. Or alex. Seriously alex isn't scummy, and I am buddying him harder than a teddy bear this game?

 

[PMJ]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

PMJ, I'm a little confused by this. What are you implying you know?

I was implying that I knew the reason you switched votes, that's all.

 

[WanderingWolf]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

Vote count:

L-6 Alex: 5 (Twisted Turtwig, PMJ, Haunted Water, Scorched Feathers, Teal, Athena)
Sillykyle : 1 (TheGuy)
Camoclone: 0 (alex)
Teal: 0 (Celever)
L-7 TwistedTurtwig: 4 (alex, Teal, Eron, PMJ, Celever)

If a majority is not reached by the end of the day then the player with the most votes will be lynched instead.

 

[Keeper of Night]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

If a majority is not reached by the end of the day then the player with the most votes will be lynched instead.

Ah, well, in that case...

##VOTE: TwistedTurtwig

I don't want it to tie, but I don't want somebody I believe to be town lynched either.

 

[alex]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

Nobody voting me has said a thing since my last post. Care to speak up guys?

 

[Machamp The Champion]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

I'm actually starting to suspect Teal a little bit. He... I don't know, seems a little too passive, more so than he usually is. He's not as suspicious as alex and TT, but I'm gonna keep an eye on him.

Because I have a life (celebrated a friend's leave for Japan yesterday the whole day) and a deadline (worked the whole Friday and Saturday on this) and a test (on Thursday) coming up.

I see how that could affect your aggressiveness (after all, the same thing is happening to me), but I don't get that vibe from your posts. You're still pretty active in this game, but still you seem much more passive than you usually are, and I remember from the past that you play much more passively when you're a wolf.

If you want to suspect me because of my life, then good job. I find your posts suspicious too, just so you know. (However I found them suspicious last game too and you were town. >_<)

Nothing new here. People suspect me of being scum all the time, whether I'm scum or not.

I'm starting to suspect alex a little less. There seems to be very little resistance with alex's lynch, except by the confirmed town. If alex was scum, and the other scum didn't want alex to be lynched, wouldn't agreeing with Celever be the perfect opportunity to avoid lynching him? This could be WIFOM, but I doubt it at this point.

I'm also having second thoughts about TT, but I would be fine with his lynch, I guess. If I had to lynch one person today, it'd probably be Teal, honestly. I'm not overly suspicious of anyone else right now.

 

[PMJ]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

I'm starting to suspect alex a little less. There seems to be very little resistance with alex's lynch, except by the confirmed town. If alex was scum, and the other scum didn't want alex to be lynched, wouldn't agreeing with Celever be the perfect opportunity to avoid lynching him? This could be WIFOM, but I doubt it at this point.

It is definitely WIFOM. On day one, I wouldn't put too much stock in anyone's reads. At this point I'd rather see TT lynched than alex just because TT posted some things I didn't like. alex may have voted No Lynch, but because he has since then cast a vote for a player, I'm willing to forgive him (mostly).

 

[Camoclone]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

@MtC major WIFOM.

@Alex why did you support Celevers original case on Teal?

 

[Eron]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

WIFOM means...?

 

[TwistedTurtwig]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

I'm pretty sure that because I haven't been a townie for so long, I've forgetten how to post without sounding suspicious.

And Eron, WIFOM stands for wine in front of me, a reference to the famous scene from the movie The Princess Bride. Basically, it's a situation where there's two possibilities, and you try to predict the opponent, knowing that they'll try to predict you, which means that you should predict that they'll precinct that you're predicting them, and-

You probably get my point by now.

 

[TwistedTurtwig]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

I should really spell check my posts before clicking submit. Gahhh, how I loathe thee, no editing rule.

 

[Eron]

RE: Werewolf XXI-0 - Left4TheWolves - Day 1 ends 3rd July 9am AEST

I'm pretty sure that because I haven't been a townie for so long, I've forgetten how to post without sounding suspicious.

And Eron, WIFOM stands for wine in front of me, a reference to the famous scene from the movie The Princess Bride. Basically, it's a situation where there's two possibilities, and you try to predict the opponent, knowing that they'll try to predict you, which means that you should predict that they'll precinct that you're predicting them, and-

You probably get my point by now.

I do... but I don't at the same time.