Finished Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [AND THE WINNERS ARE...]

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RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

I find it very aggravating that you are trying to make a case on me without even reading my posts.
I could answer everything you just said in your post by quoting my post.

PMJ asked SF and TheGuy to explain, which would lead to claiming their roles and abilities. If you thinkita good for us to reveal town pea early, then I can't take you seriously anymore.

Camoclone was targeted way before I said anything about Jeremy. I simply brought to everybody's attention what seemed like a scum hiding in front of us by blending in. So, I was wrong, but I had actual evidence to support my claim other than "his posts seem off." Also, I asked you several times yesterday to give reason behind the Camo lynch and you continued to ignore me, giving no evidence to the wagon.

I never questioned SF because I simply wasn't online. I had nothing to question him for before, why would I change my view? Especially then, as it seemed he was a pr.

Are you saying I am tunneling Celever? I unvoted him, but taking my focus completely off of somebody I think suspicious would be... Unlogical.

Also, if anybody is tunneling, it's you. You aren't even looking at other explanations and seem to want SF lynched at all costs. Goodness, at least wait for him to claim. You could be killing of a pr with an ability confirmed by the day update.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Drohn said:
The whole point is that copying isn't targeting. You don't do anything to him, or take anything from him; you just copy him. The fact is still that TheGuy targeted Camoclone and got slimy, Meaty knew Camoclone copied SF and even assumed he was slimy too. Both knew SF's ability, since it was assumed Camoclone would become slimy, meaning SF was involved (not because of a seer else the seer would be slimy). SF also got slimy himself, meaning he did something else to Camoclone so a redirector cannot be the case.

I am very confident in this. Thinking about it, it might be best to lynch SF first, so we get the full details of his role.

##Unvote: Camoclone
##Vote: Scorched Feathers

@Celever: I get you think it might be a bus. I can claim my role if you want more confidence in me, but only if others also want me to claim. It will also show soon enough if not all 4 are scum from the lynches. My role is pretty solid and easily proven, but I only want to do it if really needed.
Click to expand...

The definition of "targeting" is submitting a player's name to the host in order to use your action. I also think that you are putting all your eggs in one basket. By that, I mean you are just looking at a couple of posts. Meaty could easily have been slightly confused, because it was odd that Camo hadn't posted almost (iirc) 20 hours into Day 2.

Furthermore, Camo's claimed posting restriction doesn't make sense with any kind of copying role, in terms of Pokémon. The mimes wouldn't have a restriction -- nor would Ditto or Mew. How do you explain that? I know that you believe it to be untrue, but all we have in this game is words, and it is definitely a safer strategy to believe claims than to shrug them off.

Also, there are still so many assumptions you are making here. Personally when I'm scum I never plan ahead like you are claiming these guys to do. They would need a full battle-strategy going into Day 2 and they would need to execute it almost perfectly for your claims to be true. Meaty is just into this because he was confused; I highly doubt that he had such a short post typed up in advance, and as such would have definitely checked the slimy people in the update to ensure that the plan was working. Furthermore, if there was a plan in place, you would notice if your scummie wasn't in the update, because it is a name familiar to you in this game.

I just can't believe this theory because of the huge flaw (Camo is not gooey) and I cannot forgive that flaw because of the amount of assumptions at play here. I also find it very odd that you lump TheGuy and SF into this; think about it for a moment here. Assuming that everything you have said thus far is correct, it cannot be TheGuy because Meaty would have also said his name in his post where he got TheGuy confused with Camo, and it can't be SF because it makes no sense for Camo to copy him if both are aligned to the scum faction. I'm not saying that it is scummy you lumping them in there in your initial post, I am just saying that you may need to look over things again and make sure that you really believe you have covered everything. You hadn't considered the fact that Camo wasn't Gooey, and now this flaw that I've pointed out in your conclusion!

By the way, I think that KoN has managed to prove that he is not a part of this hypothetical scum team very well with that post. I am sort of in the same boat; I buddied Camo and SF pretty hard because I had town reads on them; not because I am aligned with them. Also, it is true that it was a bad idea for SF to claim on base value for the town as well. Obviously it has avalanched into this, but I really think that he made that statement with the town's best interests at mind!

So this case essentially boils down to Camo and Meaty being scumbuddies with each other, which is based off of Meaty posting the wrong name. Mistakes happen. Your whole theory about that post is baseless conjecture...

Also, Drohn, I'd just like to say that I'm not opposing this theory because you posted it. I just feel it is important to properly test things when it will end up with a lynch, and so far this theory hasn't held up. I've already found 3 contradictions with your claims and the testimony you have stated thus far.

tl;dr: This theory isn't believable because of the flaw and the fact that you did not consider everything. Furthermore, both SF and Camo cannot be scum at the same time if everything you have said thus far regarding this is true. I would like everyone to look at the theory more carefully and decide for yourselves whether you think it is actually a correct theory or not.

Please, tell me if there's some hard evidence I'm missing that you noticed, because right now your theory holds no water if you really think about it.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Long read. Anyway:

1. I did not say they planned it ahead and that Meaty prepared his post. He didn't and he slipped up by letting us know he knew Camoclone might have been slimy. It is very farfetch'd to believe TheGuy got slimy from targeting Camoclone if he did not in fact copy Scorched Feathers.

2. You mentioned that you don't think they would copy an ability they already have. If I am in a scum team, and one of our guys can do something very useful/powerful only once, that's a very good reason to copy the ability.

3. You seem to really not believe this due to Camoclone not being slimy. It's a fair assumption to think he might not be slimy, because he didn't copy SF, but the option is there that Teal simply doesn't recognise copying as targeting. I am convinced the latter is the case, because I really don't believe Meaty would be so confused that he mentioned Camoclone being slimy, who happened to really be slimy, based on TheGuy's ability. Everything else around it, as I explained in my first post, is super suspicious too. Both of us have been wrong before, but this case is pretty solid due to TheGuy confirming Camoclone's copied ability and Meaty slipping up.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

You cant confirm Camo copied anything. He could simply have another slime ability. If this were true, then for sure one of either SF or Camo is scum, as one would be Goodra/something and the other Muk/something. It doesn't make sense for scum to have two people of the same role though, unless one really did copy the other.

Also, please read my posts Drohn. It's getting annoying.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

I read it, but we're just going over the same things again. You come up with excuses other reasons for the actions that make you scummy and I explain why I'm sure it's more than just coincidence what happened. We've all said what we think. I'm waiting for other opinions.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Drohn said:
Long read. Anyway:

1. I did not say they planned it ahead and that Meaty prepared his post. He didn't and he slipped up by letting us know he knew Camoclone might have been slimy. It is very farfetch'd to believe TheGuy got slimy from targeting Camoclone if he did not in fact copy Scorched Feathers.

2. You mentioned that you don't think they would copy an ability they already have. If I am in a scum team, and one of our guys can do something very useful/powerful only once, that's a very good reason to copy the ability.

3. You seem to really not believe this due to Camoclone not being slimy. It's a fair assumption to think he might not be slimy, because he didn't copy SF, but the option is there that Teal simply doesn't recognise copying as targeting. I am convinced the latter is the case, because I really don't believe Meaty would be so confused that he mentioned Camoclone being slimy, who happened to really be slimy, based on TheGuy's ability. Everything else around it, as I explained in my first post, is super suspicious too. Both of us have been wrong before, but this case is pretty solid due to TheGuy confirming Camoclone's copied ability and Meaty slipping up.
Click to expand...

1. But the only way Meaty could have really messed up is if the post was planned beforehand, all things considered. Like I said, you think he got confused because of Camo being his scummie and having discussed this all. I think it was because Camo hadn't posted yet lol.

2. This ability does not make sense as a one noght then, and it really makes no sense for SF to have used it last night if he is scum.

3. ##Teal: If a hypothetical "copying" ability were to target an ability activated by being targeted, would you consider the copying ability to have targeted the latter role?
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

The only way to mess up is not by planning it beforehand. I'm not sure why you don't understand that. Camoclone was never related to the slime in the thread, yet somehow Meaty knew Camoclone was related to the slime. He realised he made an error and said he got confused, but I'm confident more happened behind the scenes. The fact TheGuy got slimy from targeting Camoclone says enough.

How do we know the ability doesn't make sense? We don't know which ability he copied or if he copied all his abilities. We know that Meaty knew Camoclone copied SF and accidentally let us know he knew that with his post, and then quickly said he was confused (which I would have believed if the who situations wasn't EXTREMELY suspicious AND the fact TheGuy got slimy from Camoclone).

##Teal I would like to know that as well if you're able to answer us.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Drohn said:
It's a fair assumption to think he might not be slimy, because he didn't copy SF, but the option is there that Teal simply doesn't recognise copying as targeting.
Click to expand...

That's completely impossible. Werewolf is not YGO; targetting means using an ability that includes/affects another player. Teal isn't a newbie in Werewolf-there's absolutely no way he would divide copying from targetting.
However, I can't really see from Celever's post how that part is undermining Drohn's theory. In my opinion, Drohn is mistaken on KoN's reactions and Camo's copying; however, they are not enough to shake all of his arguments.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

We also know that they knew SF's ability else they wouldn't copy it and otherwise Meaty also wouldn't think Camoclone was made slimy for it.

It's clear to me that Meaty assumed the same as Celever, and thought Camoclone would end up slimy from targeting/copying SF, which didn't happen and therefore we now know they all talked in the scum chat.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Wait a second... So here is the insanely intricate thing Drohn came up with:
>SF is scum
>I'm scum
>I copied SF's goey (why does he think I can copy?)
>Meaty knew I copied goey and slipped

Based off this quick skim isn't there an obvious flaw? If I copied SF wouldn't I be "gooey" too?
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Either you copied SF or TheGuy is lying about who he targeted. I'd rather lynch you or SF to find out, since I trust TheGuy more at this point. It's clear OC (scum chat) happened, or Meaty wouldn't have assumed you were slimy from copying SF. It's also clear you got his ability, since TheGuy got slimy from targeting you. I'd like you and SF to role claim.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Camoclone said:
Based off this quick skim isn't there an obvious flaw? If I copied SF wouldn't I be "gooey" too?
Click to expand...
Do you have a copy ability at all though?

Drohn said:
Either you copied SF or TheGuy is lying about who he targeted. I'd rather lynch you or SF to find out, since I trust TheGuy more at this point. It's clear OC (scum chat) happened, or Meaty wouldn't have assumed you were slimy from copying SF. It's also clear you got his ability, since TheGuy got slimy from targeting you. I'd like you and SF to role claim.
Click to expand...
If he has a copy ability, he would have had to target SF to get it. Therefor, he would be slimed just like SF and TheGuy were.
Now, why do you trust TheGuy more? Him and SF are in the same situation at the moment, save the fact that SF has an un-countered claim that had an effect on the day update.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

I obviously trust TheGuy more, because SF had to be involved. If it was TheGuy who passed on the information of SF's ability he would have been slimy the previous phase, when he would have to know the role to pass the information on in time. He is slimy on the same night Camoclone copied SF, meaning there was no phase in between in which TheGuy could have gotten results and passed it on to Camoclone and copy it. The information came directly from SF.

SF is staying quiet, even though he has been on PokéBeach. He could have easily responded by now and shared his role, but is instead repeating what he did when he was being accused in the last game; avoiding the thread. Role, please. @Both Camoclone and SF.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

I agree with KoN and Camo that Drohn's theory seems a little flawed, in the flaws the two are pointing out. There could actually be heaps of reasons why Camo is not 'slimed'.
  • Camo did not necessarily copy on N1, he may have been REQUIRED to copy possibly the ENTRIE role of someone on N0.
  • Leading off the previous point, gooey may not be always active, or even active on N0.
  • SF and Camo may have pretended to swap roles (or actually have swapped roles) to make any theories against them flawed.
  • Camo could be holding an item that makes him goo others when targeted.
  • SF (or anyone really) could have passed a gooey thing/ability to Camo, and in doing so, SF would get gooed due to targeting Camo.
Do remember people that Scorched Feathers has not entered the conversation yet.
Also, it should be noted that SF hasn't actually properly claimed and therefore we don't know what gooey actually does. Does it goo the target, does it goo the target and user, does it goo only town, does it goo on CONTACT not target, does it only goo every 2nd day, does it only goo when the targeter has a passive ability etc.

Therefore, I agree with Drohn that Scorched Feathers may be the best lynch candidate so far (better than celever (I didn't really want to vote for celever anyway), Luis, Wailord, or any other candidates), simply to find out the answers to the above questions. The answer could lead to Camo being confirmed wolf/town.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Drohn said:
Either you copied SF or TheGuy is lying about who he targeted. I'd rather lynch you or SF to find out, since I trust TheGuy more at this point. It's clear OC (scum chat) happened, or Meaty wouldn't have assumed you were slimy from copying SF. It's also clear you got his ability, since TheGuy got slimy from targeting you. I'd like you and SF to role claim.
Click to expand...

I'm not claiming yet. I have no reason to. This theory is so screwy it's not even funny. There is no explanation about how if I "copied" SF why I didn't get "gooey'd".
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

I'm going to explain it again and hopefully help everyone that isn't scum understand my reasoning/suggestions.

http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/thread-active-werewolf-xxiii-a-sacrifice-for-anti-arceus-day-2-ends-thursday-2nd?pid=2666531#pid2666531

Here SF claims Goodra and the ability Gooey. I don't see a reason for him to lie here, so it's pretty much a given this is true. If he is lying, that's still scummy and we should still lynch him.

TheGuy didn't target SF, however, but Camoclone. TheGuy got slimy from targeting Camoclone, so he has/had the same ability. It was impossible for Meaty to know Camoclone was related to these slimy events if it wasn’t for OC (scum chat) so it’s also a given that Meaty talked or read about it in the scum chat with Camoclone.

SF must have been there to share his role. If SF wasn’t there, there was no way for Meaty to know his ability would cause Camoclone to be involved with the Gooey ability and be slimy. A seer is not a possibility, since otherwise more people would have appeared slimy in the update before that night phase.

KoN is the least suspicious out of all 4, since he was not directly involved with this. He did bring up Camoclone could have copied the ability. He also defended Camoclone when he was under pressure and shifted the focus to Jeremy, who was not at all suspicious by KoN’s own standards (given what he said about SF not being suspicious is correct) at the time. Those are all indirect and he may not be scum even if all other 3 are. I still think he's the next to lynch if the other 3 flip scum.

I’m not sure why Camoclone is not slimy, it is possible that he has an ability that prevents that or that copying is not recognised as targeting. I think there is definite proof of all of these people being suspicious enough to at least force them to role claim and probably to lynch them to test whether they speak the truth.

If enough people (that I don’t find suspicious) want me to role claim to help prove that I’m part of the town I’m willing to do that.

I think we should first wait for the role claims, but since SF is avoiding the thread I think we first need to put more pressure on him. As the theory is proved correct I think we should lynch in this order:

> Scorched Feathers (lynch first to get the truth about his Gooey ability and least useful to town if the theory is incorrect, even though I'm sure it's correct, we should consider I might be wrong just in case.)
> Camoclone (His role will further confirm if he can copy things or not.)
> Meaty (He is also definitely involved due to his slip up, so we can be sure he's scum once SF and Camo flip scum.)
> Keeper of Night (Very likely scum, but still a small chance he's not.)

Edit:
bbninjas also brought up a good point. SF might have passed on the ability to Camoclone, without Camoclone knowing about it. He could have mentioned this in the scum chat, where Meaty is still definitely present, else he wouldn't know about it. With that SF would have targeted Camoclone, making SF slimy, and TheGuy would also be slimy for targeting Camoclone the same night.

If that is the case I think we should lynch SF and Meaty first. I still want Camoclone to role claim, else there is no way to prove he did not work together with SF and Meaty, which is still what I think happened most. He's also getting a lot of time to edit/write a new role now, so perhaps if SF and Meaty flip scum he should be lynched to be safe anyway.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

bbninjas said:
I agree with KoN and Camo that Drohn's theory seems a little flawed, in the flaws the two are pointing out. There could actually be heaps of reasons why Camo is not 'slimed'.
  • Camo did not necessarily copy on N1, he may have been REQUIRED to copy possibly the ENTRIE role of someone on N0.
  • Leading off the previous point, gooey may not be always active, or even active on N0.
  • SF and Camo may have pretended to swap roles (or actually have swapped roles) to make any theories against them flawed.
  • Camo could be holding an item that makes him goo others when targeted.
  • SF (or anyone really) could have passed a gooey thing/ability to Camo, and in doing so, SF would get gooed due to targeting Camo.
Do remember people that Scorched Feathers has not entered the conversation yet.
Also, it should be noted that SF hasn't actually properly claimed and therefore we don't know what gooey actually does. Does it goo the target, does it goo the target and user, does it goo only town, does it goo on CONTACT not target, does it only goo every 2nd day, does it only goo when the targeter has a passive ability etc.

Therefore, I agree with Drohn that Scorched Feathers may be the best lynch candidate so far (better than celever (I didn't really want to vote for celever anyway), Luis, Wailord, or any other candidates), simply to find out the answers to the above questions. The answer could lead to Camo being confirmed wolf/town.
Click to expand...
1) Even if I copied N0 wouldn't i still be Gooey'd?
2) Ok...
3) Why would we do this?
4) That's pretty unlikely.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

I'm not claiming yet silly. There is a chance of a redirector. And for having such an outrageous theory it seems like a pretty big flaw that I wasn't gooey'd.
 
RE: Werewolf XXIII: A Sacrifice for Anti-Arceus [DAY 2: ends Thursday 2nd]

Ok just thought of this:

What if Camoclone's copying ability works during the day, so he can use his copied ability at night? This would explain it not being in the update.

Role claim please. The longer you take the more time you have to edit/write new roles.
 
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