Pokequaza said:
Exactly, and I am sorry if I am being rude, I just don't know how to explain it.
What is Your Position on Abortion?
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Exactly, and I am sorry if I am being rude, I just don't know how to explain it.
I am just going to say this. If Stolen, then yes. If not, happy nine months and such.
This is a brick.
This, is a house.
This is a fertilized egg.
This, a baby
(and yes, I put the most horrible picture on purpose, there's not a single baby photo that was not sickeningly adorable. I'm fine now, though, after the search I kicked some puppies)
Is the brick a house? no.
Is the fertilized egg a baby? no.
Does the brick have the potential to be a house (with many other elements)? yes.
Does the fertilized egg has the potential to be a baby (with many other elements)? yes.
I think that sums up my views on the subject pretty well. Elegantly, I would even say (not being presumptuous, I just don't get to say that as much as I'd like).
Disclaimer: If you didn't get it, first read a d*** book, second, If I don't consider an egg as a baby, therefore it has no rights before birth, therefore, it can't be murdered; the decision for abortion is solely of the mother's, and if education (overall, not only sex ed.) were better, there would be no need for widespread abortion because people would use condoms and day after pills, also, no Stolen.
This is the way I see it:
A fertilized egg is alive yes?
Is it a Cow?
Is it a Spider?
Is it Bacteria?
Or is it a Human?
When from the moment cell division begins were we not humans? We don't go through metamorphosis and we can't switch species so we were human from the moment of conception. Underdeveloped and unconscious yes, but still human. So then how is it not a crime to kill/abort a human? After all every person in the world should have the right to live. Just because they can't always feel the pain it doesn't make an abortion right. Also if even the baby is just "a cluster of cells" it is undeniably alive. It's almost like people who go through with abortion are school bullies; the baby can't protect itself or even fight against its impending doom so that makes everything okay, am I wrong? Also I would like to add that many if not all of your mothers could have chosen to abort you, just think about that for a bit please...
Sorry if I rambled a lot, I just get pretty upset when certain liberals (not pointing any fingers here and please don't take this as an insult) value trees and rainforests more than human life. Before you respond please take the time to watch a video of an abortion, please. It is very gruesome and watching human body parts being pulled from a mother's body shouldn't sit well with any normal person at all.
A fertilized egg is alive yes?
Is it a Cow?
Is it a Spider?
Is it Bacteria?
Or is it a Human?
When from the moment cell division begins were we not humans? We don't go through metamorphosis and we can't switch species so we were human from the moment of conception. Underdeveloped and unconscious yes, but still human. So then how is it not a crime to kill/abort a human? After all every person in the world should have the right to live. Just because they can't always feel the pain it doesn't make an abortion right. Also if even the baby is just "a cluster of cells" it is undeniably alive. It's almost like people who go through with abortion are school bullies; the baby can't protect itself or even fight against its impending doom so that makes everything okay, am I wrong? Also I would like to add that many if not all of your mothers could have chosen to abort you, just think about that for a bit please...
Sorry if I rambled a lot, I just get pretty upset when certain liberals (not pointing any fingers here and please don't take this as an insult) value trees and rainforests more than human life. Before you respond please take the time to watch a video of an abortion, please. It is very gruesome and watching human body parts being pulled from a mother's body shouldn't sit well with any normal person at all.
The Pikachu Mafia said:
No, a fertilized egg is not alive. Have you the slightest concept of biology? A group of cells is not a human; it is a group of cells.
I am appalled when I read hideously unintelligent posts, especially when this was already discussed, and we provided scientific facts proving that a group of cells is just that -- a group of cells, unaware of anything.
Actually Biology was my best subject when I took it last year and my mom is a nurse who I constantly talk to about topics like this, I also am interested in things like this and have read books on topics related to this one. So I am well informed on this subject thank you very much.
A group of cells isn't necessarily a human but I'm not talking about just any cells, I'm talking about human cells developing inside of a human body. Please remember that you too were once just a cluster of cells, were you human then? If not than what were you? Just randomly repeating the phrase that you were just a group a cells wont cut it either, every living organism is made up out of cells so you had to be something. Also Science has determined that those "group of cells" are not only living, but living humans as well.
Please don't call me unintelligent just because of my beliefs, it is rude and a childish way to push away my viable arguments. This discussion is supposed to remain civil, not just some name-calling fest.
A group of cells isn't necessarily a human but I'm not talking about just any cells, I'm talking about human cells developing inside of a human body. Please remember that you too were once just a cluster of cells, were you human then? If not than what were you? Just randomly repeating the phrase that you were just a group a cells wont cut it either, every living organism is made up out of cells so you had to be something. Also Science has determined that those "group of cells" are not only living, but living humans as well.
Please don't call me unintelligent just because of my beliefs, it is rude and a childish way to push away my viable arguments. This discussion is supposed to remain civil, not just some name-calling fest.
I will say I am "Pro-Choice". And I like most, believe there's always some reason behind why it should be done.
However, all I 'm going to say here is 2 definitions and a bit of a conclusion, and leave it to everyone else to decide what is to come from it.
Living thing:
Any organism or a living form that possesses or shows the characteristics of life or being alive.
Alive:
Having life, in opposition to dead; living; being in a state in which the organs perform their functions; as, an animal or a plant which is alive.
Do fetus' perform their functions? Or is it relying on the mother. . ?
Just curious. . .
However, all I 'm going to say here is 2 definitions and a bit of a conclusion, and leave it to everyone else to decide what is to come from it.
Living thing:
Any organism or a living form that possesses or shows the characteristics of life or being alive.
Alive:
Having life, in opposition to dead; living; being in a state in which the organs perform their functions; as, an animal or a plant which is alive.
Do fetus' perform their functions? Or is it relying on the mother. . ?
Just curious. . .
The Pikachu Mafia said:
My biopsy was very gruesome, should I not have had it because of that? also I bathed the OR in poop. Is that fact basis for not having it?
We are not saying abortion is pretty, or that it's fine, we are saying it's a necessary evil, since we say that the rights of a born and developed person now outweigh those of a clump of cells that might be a born and developed person some day. As I said in my previous post, with education (IE, people knowing exactly what the hell condoms are, and not the "I drank two of them and I got pregnant anyway" kind of crap stupid or uneducated people are capable of), abortions would be extremely rare and very justified.
You have
Indeed, I was something -- a group of cells that had the potential to be a human. Was I a human? No. I was a group of cells. If biology was one of your best subjects, how are you unaware of this?
I never once called you unintelligent; I stated that your post was unintelligent.
I never once called you unintelligent; I stated that your post was unintelligent.
The Pikachu Mafia said:
I must say, implying some of us are tree-huggers because we believe everyone has a choice in the matter is a bit ignorant and points towards arrogance. However, I don't think, if you were to look through everyone's opinions stated here, you will find a single one of us saying abortion is a beautiful procedure. I think we can all agree, it's a bit sad, and over all not something one with a sane mind would enjoy. But that doesn't take away the fact, that nonetheless, whether it's a living organism, (which it's not) or not. It's between the "Mother" and the doctor. And it should remain that way. It's not murder. Point blank. It's not a living thing, because, quite simply it can't perform it's functions. Which is what classifies something as living.
I was not implying that any of you were tree-huggers first of all, I was making a general statement towards the liberals you may see in everyday life. A stereotype I suppose which may have been uncalled for, but to be fair you guys have shot off plenty of stereotypes yourselves and I was making an analogy more than anything.
@professorlight: Doesn't the fact that you just witnessed your child die set you off at all? A human life should always outweigh the convenience of the mother, the only plausible acception I could see being even somewhat viable is if the life of the mother is at risk. Even then what mother in their right mind would want to kill their child? Also what kind of trick question are you trying to ask on Bacteria? Bacteria is a separate organism necessary for life as we know it with it's own non human cells, of course it's not part of you.
A fetus isn't the only organism in the world that is depended on another organism. They can also produce waste, feel pain, breath, etc. so they can preform basic functions. Also your guys statement that there is a period of time in which you are not Human just doesn't compute. We still are just a cluster of cells, so are we human? In fact 5 years from now every single cell in your body will be replaced by a new one. So in that sense will you still be you, or human at all for that matter? At what point in time do you "become" human? It is somewhat silly to say that you were not you X years ago isn't it? I might also add that from the moment of contraception the Child has his or her own unique human DNA making him or her no longer part of the mother. Also by your own admission children aren't really alive until they go through puberty because they can't preform one of the most fundamental functions required to be living according to Science, reproduction.
Colress please stop mocking me, I am not "unaware" of anything and am just simply stating my beliefs on the matter. I have also done my own research for years and came to this conclusion by myself, where did you get your information; a public school, Biology class? (I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm genuinely wondering)
@professorlight: Doesn't the fact that you just witnessed your child die set you off at all? A human life should always outweigh the convenience of the mother, the only plausible acception I could see being even somewhat viable is if the life of the mother is at risk. Even then what mother in their right mind would want to kill their child? Also what kind of trick question are you trying to ask on Bacteria? Bacteria is a separate organism necessary for life as we know it with it's own non human cells, of course it's not part of you.
A fetus isn't the only organism in the world that is depended on another organism. They can also produce waste, feel pain, breath, etc. so they can preform basic functions. Also your guys statement that there is a period of time in which you are not Human just doesn't compute. We still are just a cluster of cells, so are we human? In fact 5 years from now every single cell in your body will be replaced by a new one. So in that sense will you still be you, or human at all for that matter? At what point in time do you "become" human? It is somewhat silly to say that you were not you X years ago isn't it? I might also add that from the moment of contraception the Child has his or her own unique human DNA making him or her no longer part of the mother. Also by your own admission children aren't really alive until they go through puberty because they can't preform one of the most fundamental functions required to be living according to Science, reproduction.
Colress please stop mocking me, I am not "unaware" of anything and am just simply stating my beliefs on the matter. I have also done my own research for years and came to this conclusion by myself, where did you get your information; a public school, Biology class? (I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm genuinely wondering)
The Pikachu Mafia said:
A stereotype IS an implication. . .
However, they can feel pain after a certain amount of time. The dictionary definition of living thing is able to produce its own functions. Something a undeveloped fetus can't do. . . Sorry, it's THE definition of living. Which it doesn't match up with. Which would mean. . . It's not living.
Reproduction is not a bodily function needed to survive. So the "science" you've been reading is one of two things. Biased. Or wrong. I'd have to go with both.
Where do you get your information? Private, Catholic school? FOX News? Perhaps the typical right-wing "scientist?" The "science" you espouse is quite offensive to a scientist, to say the least.
No. I, too, have extensively studied this subject, despite my mere age, and have come to a logical, scientific conclusion that is based purely on logical reasoning and plain fact, not emotion, not feelings -- fact. The scientific community, full of individuals with PhDs, I mind you, have come to a general consensus that fetuses do not feel until they are onwards from eight weeks of pregnancy. Even so, the fetus is not cognitively aware of what is happening and will not be cognizant until much later into the pregnancy, if then.
Mocking? Elaborate, please. If you are taking offense to facts, you've got another thing coming.
No. I, too, have extensively studied this subject, despite my mere age, and have come to a logical, scientific conclusion that is based purely on logical reasoning and plain fact, not emotion, not feelings -- fact. The scientific community, full of individuals with PhDs, I mind you, have come to a general consensus that fetuses do not feel until they are onwards from eight weeks of pregnancy. Even so, the fetus is not cognitively aware of what is happening and will not be cognizant until much later into the pregnancy, if then.
Mocking? Elaborate, please. If you are taking offense to facts, you've got another thing coming.
Colress said:
Glad to see someone else educates themselves and reads up on stuff in their free time. Good on you.
I don't mean to disrupt here, since I haven't took up huge amounts of my time to research the topic. But, wouldn't killing what could be life still killing in the end result? Even cells die, thats the term we use, and they are more than cells, they are potential.
To kill potential off is a tragedy, at least in my eyes, and I'd hate to see this become the norm.
Also...from what Pikachu Mafia described..the process sounds more horrible than a horror movie. And the kicker is, its real.
To kill potential off is a tragedy, at least in my eyes, and I'd hate to see this become the norm.
Also...from what Pikachu Mafia described..the process sounds more horrible than a horror movie. And the kicker is, its real.
Fancy said:
Well I have the potential to kill you, (Haha, don't worry, I won't) Does that make me a murderer?
I agree, it's not pretty, and it's sad. And I personally, would prefer never to do it. But, it's not our choice to say what one does behind closed doors.
I actually don't go to a private school or watch Fox but thanks for the laugh. I consider all that media garbage to be irrelevant for the most part. I home school so if you want to call that a biased source of information then go ahead, however it is no more biased than public schools I'm afraid. I'm also going to be taking some community college courses soon if you must know, it's not a catholic College either so I would like to say that I am pretty unbiased in my research. I get most of my information from books, the internet, and people I've talked to. In fact the Biology book I used was standard issue at the non Christian High School across town, so yes it is legit.
That is besides the point though, the basic functions needed for something to live are:
1: It's composed of cells (we were just talking about cells)
2: Requires Energy (an intake of food, given)
3: Ability to Reproduce (already explained by you guys)
4: Display Heredity (DNA, genes, etc.)
5: Respond to Stimuli (there are studies that show a human fetus can respond to stimuli)
6: Adaptation (the ability to adapt to your environment, they can do that too)
7: Maintain Homeostasis (circulatory system, need I say more?)
I grabbed those conditions randomly on the basic things needed for something to sustain life and made sure to avoid the words Human, Fetus, or Abortion in my search so the result can be as unbiased as possible. Here's the link to the article:
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/pdf/origin06.pdf
Also here's another article explaining that a Human fetus has the proper functions to be considered a living thing: (although knowing you guys it will probably be written off as a biased source)
http://silentholocaust.tumblr.com/fetuspersonornot
There is overwhelming amounts of evidence pointing to the fact that a Human fetus is a living human being. Weather or not you choose to ignore it is up to you. It is not ignorance to believe that a human fetus is in fact a living human and that life begins at contraception, if someone is unconscious does that make them not alive since they can't feel pain or comprehend what is going on around them? I would be happy to give you guys more links and references if you want them. However it's past 2am here and I'm beginning to slow down a lot, perhaps we can pick this up again tomorrow?
That is besides the point though, the basic functions needed for something to live are:
1: It's composed of cells (we were just talking about cells)
2: Requires Energy (an intake of food, given)
3: Ability to Reproduce (already explained by you guys)
4: Display Heredity (DNA, genes, etc.)
5: Respond to Stimuli (there are studies that show a human fetus can respond to stimuli)
6: Adaptation (the ability to adapt to your environment, they can do that too)
7: Maintain Homeostasis (circulatory system, need I say more?)
I grabbed those conditions randomly on the basic things needed for something to sustain life and made sure to avoid the words Human, Fetus, or Abortion in my search so the result can be as unbiased as possible. Here's the link to the article:
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/pdf/origin06.pdf
Also here's another article explaining that a Human fetus has the proper functions to be considered a living thing: (although knowing you guys it will probably be written off as a biased source)
http://silentholocaust.tumblr.com/fetuspersonornot
There is overwhelming amounts of evidence pointing to the fact that a Human fetus is a living human being. Weather or not you choose to ignore it is up to you. It is not ignorance to believe that a human fetus is in fact a living human and that life begins at contraception, if someone is unconscious does that make them not alive since they can't feel pain or comprehend what is going on around them? I would be happy to give you guys more links and references if you want them. However it's past 2am here and I'm beginning to slow down a lot, perhaps we can pick this up again tomorrow?
The Pikachu Mafia said:
Well, with both of those links, you proved that it was the former. The second one is biased towards your cause.
The clear cut definition across the board is what I posted earlier. That IS the definition of living thing. There is no way around it. That is what Living thing, and alive mean. Which, it does not match.
In your opinion yes and in my opinion no. Lefty and Righty Scientists have been arguing this topic for years and still haven't come to a conclusion, if they did then there wouldn't be such a big debate about this right now. Also you can't just write off everything I say as biased, that in and of itself is a closed minded mentality. xD
Also if no one likes the process of an abortion like you're all saying then why do you support it, certainly not because the mother had an "accident" and doesn't feel like being responsible right?
Also if no one likes the process of an abortion like you're all saying then why do you support it, certainly not because the mother had an "accident" and doesn't feel like being responsible right?
The Pikachu Mafia said:
Woah, woah, waitaminnitwaitaminnit. I never said I had an abortion! I said BIOPSY, not abortion... two different things... the poop thing didn't tell you anything? what does poop has to do with abortions? girls have three holes, no two, didn't you know?
You say the fetus should outweigh the rights of the mother over her own body, but have you ever been a pregnant woman? does she not have any rights? Any pregnancy adds risk to a woman's health. Did you think a woman was healthier while pregnant? hell no, pregnancy is a pretty serious deal for the body; lots of hormonal, physical and psychological changes, all of which would leave even the manliest of men crying like puppies.
All of that, even the increased risk of health problems, is an acceptable trade-off for a woman who wants a child, but have you thought what that would mean for someone who didn't want the kid? you are screwed, basically (double screwed, pun intended, and, yes, I AM a terrible person, thankyouverymuch). You get all the pain and suffering, the increased risk of death (and when applicable, the reminder of a Stolen, the scorn of people who don't know how to mind their own business) and on top of all, you have to drop from school to raise the kid, be a parent when you aren't ready and not in your own terms, which is not good for you or for the kid or give the kid in adoption (which doesn't solve anything, since the mother still has to go through the whole shebang, another pun intended).
And before you say anything, yes, I have been a fetus, and no, I wouldn't have minded if my mother aborted me, since I wouldn't have had any conscience, and neither would you (unless you were The Smartest Fetus Ever, in which case, I salute you).
Bacteria and humans are symbiotic, while a mother and her fetus are not; the fetus is like a parasite (which might one day become a human, from the moment it leaves the uterus, not before).