Concern with the Direction of the Game Thus Far (Again...)

[Zyflair]

I already know Trainer Lock and Catcher is going to be the metagame, instead of complaining why aren't there players finding solutions to these problems?

... the format is bad but it's not bad to the point where I'd want to quit the game. The format is healthy but it's not as healthy as it should be which I should've clarified before.

Lolwut?

If there's a problem as you said, then you would at least see people quitting. But seriously, even a 5% drop in amount of participation for Fall BRs on average would be extremely unlikely. So if you've already filed a complaint to PUSA about this, just sit back and watch; people who just complain about something they're playing don't realize that they didn't put a darn effort into making the game. This is almost as bad as the Facebook hating except most of the whining going on here is caused by mostly one person.

 

[corabed]

^I agree entirely about the complaining people.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Lolwut?

If there's a problem as you said, then you would at least see people quitting. But seriously, even a 5% drop in amount of participation for Fall BRs on average would be extremely unlikely. So if you've already filed a complaint to PUSA about this, just sit back and watch; people who just complain about something they're playing don't realize that they didn't put a darn effort into making the game. This is almost as bad as the Facebook hating except most of the whining going on here is caused by mostly one person.

I didn't mean to confuse you Zyflair, but yeah there is a problem and I see people in my area either taking a hiatus from playing the Pokemon TCG or they are just quitting entirely. As for filling a complaint to PUSA about this I haven't. So yeah I apologize If I confused you on that regard. As for Facebook, I don't hate it I just don't trust it since I feel that it violates personal privacy when you're exposing more of yourself on the internet for stuff such as identity theft and that nature.

 

[catutie]

Lol a bigger deck pool back then? With SP around you have to be joking...there was

VileGar
Gyarados
LuxChomp
Dialgachomp

Please keep in mind, you only listed tier one decks, I could list at least 7 other decks that still could win tournaments

and that's pretty much it. I know I'm forgetting one...I just know I am but still that isn't as wide a variety as right now

ReshiPhlosion
MagneBoar
MegaZone
DonChamp lololololol
ZPS Find me a ZPS that wins a tourney, and I will show you an easy meta.
BlastZel I didn't see a single one of these at Nats, did any top cut?
RDL This is not a deck, it is 2 cards.
MewBox
Stage 1's

Please...add to the list...but really the deck pool IS much bigger this format.

First...fine...just Donphan or Donphan and Samurott...heck DonChamp can still work...anything with Donphan works

If I didn't put ZPS...people would have complained

BlastZel will be much more viable post-Catcher. Techs with free retreat will keep it consistent.

RDL can have other attackers ya know...Magnezone, Reshiram...I guess that is just ReshiBoar/MagneBoar with a RDL tech....

 

[Ty W]

The only point that you've made as to why the format is bad is that the cards are getting too good. You couldn't be more wrong here. Any deck from the previous format could've won worlds easily. The cards are most definitely getting worse. That is also an invalid reason because, for the third time, you can play the same cards as everyone else. You keep saying that the format is bad and that people in your area are quitting, but you need to back up your points more instead of repeating yourself.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Well not everyone in my area is quitting Pokemon, just a few. But yeah you're right Ty W I didn't do good enought to backup my points earlier...

 

[Muddy68]

Well, Pokemon could care less about just a few people. Do you have any idea how many new people have joined the game with the advent of the 5th generation or the ones who have rejoined since this format has become slightly less flippy due to Catcher?
And cards are getting slightly less powerful because Nintendo wants it to go back to a Base Set style format. I think that currently the only flaw with the game is the coinflip to see who goes first. If that would be corrected, it would make the game that much better. Other than that 1 flip, the game is as skill based as ever with Catcher because one has to decide which Pokemon to drag up off their opponent's bench.

 

[Riskbreakers]

and the game also isn't decided as to who can hit the most reversal flips. When reversals became popular, i just realized how much catcher was a better option.

Honestly, i enjoy this format now because the tourneys here always have fresh faces deck-wise.. Gone are the days half or more than half play the same deck sure, people play yanmega but to they pair it with always makes the difference and that alone has creativity. Even with catcher releasing, the format is more creative than it was ever since the ex era. Lastly, if the japs dont even whine or moan about the cards they get then why should we? We should learn how to adjust and embrace change.

As for that facebook thing , CSJ.. It's your choice to post pics in facebook so it's your own problem.

 

[froggy025]

Catcher will most likely be played in just 2 copies cause you can already run 4 Junk Arm to get them back from your Discard Pile and Professor Juniper helps any deck speed up quite a bit to achieve that card synergy. 4 Catcher is overkill IMO.

I say some decks (Donphan) will need it early game to get KOs on things like Oddish, Cyndaquil or Gothita / Solosis, thus playing 4 copies of it.

For slower decks 2 or 3 should probably be enough

 

[OU Pokemon]

Well, Pokemon could care less about just a few people. Do you have any idea how many new people have joined the game with the advent of the 5th generation or the ones who have rejoined since this format has become slightly less flippy due to Catcher?
And cards are getting slightly less powerful because Nintendo wants it to go back to a Base Set style format. I think that currently the only flaw with the game is the coinflip to see who goes first. If that would be corrected, it would make the game that much better. Other than that 1 flip, the game is as skill based as ever with Catcher because one has to decide which Pokemon to drag up off their opponent's bench.

Well, in my area, in depends what you're talking about. TCG wise, lots of my peers re-joined after HGSS came out, and video game wise, some of my peers started playing Pokemon again after HG and SS came out and when BW came out, even more people joined.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Well in my area, most of my friends are (like I said earlier) taking a break from playing Pokemon TCG to play WoW TCG/Raw Deal and as for my video game meta it's VERY small since apparently everyone is waiting for the previous generation Pokemon to become VGC legal next year If Nintendo and Game Freak still have common sense to do so. If not they've killed the video games, Imagine how you'd feel not being able to play your old Pokemon in Black/White VGC's, sucks doesn't it?

I'm lucky If I do manage to get a few games in of Pokemon TCG anymore, plus Battle Roads Autumn is coming up soon and I'm not sure If my playerbase will stabilize enough. It seems like we keep losing more players than we take in which is a shame, one of my friends quit going to one of my Leagues cause he kept getting bullied by my other friends so he's mainly playing over in Kansas where I'm unable to get to cause I don't have a driver's license and with my short-attention span I may get into a car accident.

Then another quit cause of Pokemon Catcher, first thing he saw that card before Nats he was like, "I'm done with this game after Nats." I just got this bad feeling that alot of Pokemon players in my area seem to have lost interest in the Pokemon TCG. When you have a metagame where we have overpowered Basic and Stage 1 Pokemon that are as powerful as Stage 2 Pokemon are it literally becomes a speed race where games don't take as long as they used to. I think it's mainly Catcher-hate and how it hurts the playability of Stage 2's in general.

I'll keep playing hoping the game turns around and makes another comeback somehow, but until then it looks like I'm stuck having to play World of Warcraft TCG and Magic more often than Pokemon at least until Battle Roads where I can finally put my MewBox deck to the test and see If it fairs well against Yanmega, ZPS, and other metagame threats. Pokemon isn't getting as bad as Yu-Gi-Oh! at least I hope not, I've played Yu-Gi-Oh! and that is a TCG that cannot be salvaged from the depths of despair despite it's growing popularity over the years. I still respect Yu-Gi-Oh! players but only their common sense will awaken the truth behind the power creep of their own game.

 

[The Yoshi]

You know, I've wanted to post in this thread for a while, but I haven't had the guts to do so. But now I know exactly what I want to say.

Then another quit cause of Pokemon Catcher, first thing he saw that card before Nats he was like, "I'm done with this game after Nats."

This makes me shocked that someone who's played in the TCG Nationals is quitting over one card. You know what that tells me? It tells me they can't handle change, and that's exactly what it is. I'm not going to continue to rant on this quote anymore, but quitting over Catcher is close to the lamest thing I've ever heard about concerning the Pokemon TCG. Think about it. He quit over one good card. Just my opinion.

With the issue that came up with people quitting the TCG, that's too bad that people are leaving. I can't say much else on that topic, except that it might be a good idea to advertise the league so you'll have enough players to host Battle Roads Autumn.

And now, for the issue about VGC's being only Gen 5. Pokemon, I didn't hear one person complain about Unova-only Pokemon for this year's Worlds, in fact, some people were excited for this change, since this brought a whole lot of attention to the Black and White games, which is what Nintendo wants. Good marketing. Worlds 2010 only let you use the HG/SS games, which means people had to buy that game to play. Again, smart marketing. Letting people use Pokemon use older generation Pokemon would not net in as much money as it could.

On a final note, nobody is forcing you to play any of these Trading Card Games. If your friends are quitting, maybe this is a sign for you to stop completely. This has probably been said 10+ times in this thread, but when something isn't fun, it isn't worth your time and money.

Thank you if had heard me out.

 

[Zyflair]

Card Slinger J, not to sound insulting on a personal level, but your argument has seriously crumbled to the point that all you're talking about is your friends quitting the TCG over a format they don't like, or over a bullying problem. If I remember correctly, this thread is about any possible problems over the format, not your personal life.

Also, total lol at your completely irrelevant comment over how YGO is beyong salvation.

I'm done with this thread now. You can keep talking if you like, but there's nothing that you probably haveworth saying.

 

[scizorlicious]

one of my friends quit going to one of my Leagues cause he kept getting bullied by my other friends

This is not a problem with the game in any way. That's a problem with your friends.

Then another quit cause of Pokemon Catcher, first thing he saw that card before Nats he was like, "I'm done with this game after Nats."

Remember Gengar Prime? And how it was going to crush the meta? And then Lost World, when Gengar Prime was REALLY going to crush the meta? Why on earth would you quit because of a card that hasn't even been released? We don't even know how much of an impact it will have; it could be for the better.

 

[Ty W]

Everytime a new set is released, someone on the internet complains nonstop about how a good a card/deck is. Most of the time they are wrong, but a lot of times there are cards that are way too good. I'm going into my 9th year of playing competitively, and I've seen a lot of over-powered cards go through. But, we always do the same exact thing. We adapt. We get used to the cards and prepare to whine about the next set. I think that the fact that everyone on this thread disagrees with the original post gives enough proof to show that we are content with the state of the game. I do not like catcher being released, but instead of quitting before we played it in tournaments, I welcome it as a challenge. I had always thought that catcher would make ZPS and stage 1's overpowered decks, until I tested. And I found that in testing, I'm 28-1 against stage 1s and 10-0 against ZPS. Both lists played 3 catcher, and I had no problem beating them. The format right now has very good rock paper scissors type of matchups, and that is when the format is healthiest. And once again, any deck from the last format would dominate this format, meaning that the cards are getting worse. There is no power creep at all. If anything it's the opposite of a power creep. Don't quit the game because cards are good in theory. You are still just telling us that you're friends are quitting, and you are not explaining why the format isn't healthy.

 

[scizorlicious]

^I agree with most of that, but I think there is a slight power creep. You do say that any deck from last format could have one Worlds this one– and that's true, I'll admit– but the thing is, they had Uxie. And Azelf. And Luxury Ball. And no Rare Candy errata. And Warp Point.
The Pokémon themselves are still increasing in power. The support we have behind them has gone down, though. If you take anything MD-BW, it is better than MD-HS. Of course this is the case (how could it get worse?), but the decks getting worse isn't a result of worse cards, it's a result of the major staples from MD-on getting rotated out and not replaced.

 

[Celebi23]

Anybody saying there isn't a power creep is crazy. Let's look at Lugia ex. It had 100 HP and a fairly flippy Poke-Body that wasn't broken in any way given all the energy acceleration available. When it got knocked out, your opponent got 2 prizes. The attack could one-hit anything in existance, but it took not only 3 energy but three different types of energy. You also had to discard 1 of each of those types of energy in order to attack. Now, we have Reshiram, a basic with 30 more HP than Lugia and a very usable first attack that can get going on the first turn with DCE. The second attack is capable of OHKOing a lot of stuff out there, but it only takes one type of energy and heck, one of the 3 energy can be colorless. When it attacks you only have to discard 2 energy. Furthermore, Reshiram has access to PlusPower stacking for when you don't have the OHKO. But most importantly, despite Reshiram being an already arguably stronger card, you only take 1 prize after KOing it. Heck, let's compare Reshiram to Typhlosion (non-prime) from the HS set. Reshiram's attacks are actually better than that card, but he's a basic and Typhlosion is a stage 2. These two cards only have 4 sets between them.

While the power creep doesn't particularly concern me, I am disappointed with the direction the game has taken. I mean, what even happened to cool decks like Mewtric and even LBS or Plox? Most of the decks now are built around either out-muscling the opponent or preventing them from ever setting anything up.

 

[Card Slinger J]

The Pokémon themselves are still increasing in power. The support we have behind them has gone down, though. If you take anything MD-BW, it is better than MD-HS. Of course this is the case (how could it get worse?), but the decks getting worse isn't a result of worse cards, it's a result of the major staples from MD-on getting rotated out and not replaced.

What staples from MD-On (last format) are you referring to that didn't get replaced?
Azelf LA was supposed to get replaced by Rotom UD or Alph 4, Uxie LA was replaced by
Draw Supporters and Magnezone Prime, Bebe's Search was (sort of) replaced by Elm's Training Method and Pokemon Communication, Roseanne's Research got replaced by Pokemon Collector (sort of), yet Call Energy didn't get reprinted unfortunately and neither did Warp Point. What am I missing here?

Oh that's right we have a counter to Donphan and Reshiram with Suicune/Entei LEGEND as proven by google Cawthorn's Deck at Worlds 2011, counters to Yanmega Prime with Magnezone Prime and Zekrom, counters to Zoroark with Donphan, there are answers to these cards but part of the problem is that they are either expensive to get ahold of or there isn't a cheap alternative that's just as good when our options in the current format are limited at the moment at least until Noble Victories is released in the next 2-3 months.

While the power creep doesn't particularly concern me, I am disappointed with the direction the game has taken. I mean, what even happened to cool decks like Mewtric and even LBS or Plox? Most of the decks now are built around either out-muscling the opponent or preventing them from ever setting anything up.

Part of that problem is how the Black/White Rules have changed the metagame where most games are almost decided by a coin flip where If a player gets to go first the other player would have a disadvantage to catch up If they don't draw into a Collector in time. It doesn't necessarily mean that the player who goes first will win the majority of the time but it does give them tempo advantage where the luck of the draw is still a deciding factor in the game in general. The Rare Candy errata has hurt this in some way but at the same time helped but the way I see it it's made Stage 2's a little less powerful than they were in the last 2 formats but not bad enough where it won't see play anymore.

It's still very crucial these days for Trainer Lock decks running Vileplume or Gothitelle. Sure you can't Candy T1, so what? get 2 Oddish or 2 Gothita on the bench from a Collector and regardless If they Catcher one of them from the bench you will still get your Plume or Goth Lock by T2 granted you have a Candy in hand. It's still a solid counter against Catcher so it's not a bad play at all. People are running Typhlosion Prime over Emboar in Reshiram decks because of the threat of Emboar getting Catchered and having to waste 4 energies to retreat or get locked from playing Switch with Vileplume/Gothitelle. Suffice to say Catcher single-handedly killed ReshiBoar but not Reshiram itself.

 

[Vulpix Yolk]

What staples from MD-On (last format) are you referring to that didn't get replaced?
Azelf LA was supposed to get replaced by Rotom UD or Alph 4, Uxie LA was replaced by
Draw Supporters and Magnezone Prime, Bebe's Search was (sort of) replaced by Elm's Training Method and Pokemon Communication, Roseanne's Research got replaced by Pokemon Collector (sort of), yet Call Energy didn't get reprinted unfortunately and neither did Warp Point. What am I missing here?

Pokedrawer +, Pokedex Handy, Expert Belt, Broken Time Space, all of the SP engine, Luxury Ball, VS Seeker... Not to mention that the no one plays Rotom or Alph, but everyone played Azelf. Calling Magnezone a replacement for Uxie is like spitting on Uxie's grave; no one played Bebe's, but they were already playing Communication and Rosy's wasn't even legal last format. Calling those cards replacement for anything is borderline offensive IMO.

Oh that's right we have a counter to Donphan and Reshiram with Suicune/Entei LEGEND as proven by google Cawthorn's Deck at Worlds 2011, counters to Yanmega Prime with Magnezone Prime and Zekrom, counters to Zoroark with Donphan, there are answers to these cards but part of the problem is that they are either expensive to get ahold of or there isn't a cheap alternative that's just as good when our options in the current format are limited at the moment at least until Noble Victories is released in the next 2-3 months.

Have fun slipping a Entei Suicune Legend line into a deck as a counter, tell me how that goes. If you don't own a set of Yanmegas, you aren't going to do well in this format

Part of that problem is how the Black/White Rules have changed the metagame where most games are almost decided by a coin flip where If a player gets to go first the other player would have a disadvantage to catch up If they don't draw into a Collector in time.

And going second has format wasn't an advantage? There will always be an advantage to going a 1st or 2nd, it is generally how games work.

It's still very crucial these days for Trainer Lock decks running Vileplume or Gothitelle. Sure you can't Candy T1, so what? get 2 Oddish or 2 Gothita on the bench from a Collector and regardless If they Catcher one of them from the bench you will still get your Plume or Goth Lock by T2 granted you have a Candy in hand. It's still a solid counter against Catcher so it's not a bad play at all. People are running Typhlosion Prime over Emboar in Reshiram decks because of the threat of Emboar getting Catchered and having to waste 4 energies to retreat or get locked from playing Switch with Vileplume/Gothitelle. Suffice to say Catcher single-handedly killed ReshiBoar but not Reshiram itself.

It's funny, because Reshiboar was dead before Catcher came out >_>

I find it funny that half this post is a different argument than in the OP, and the other half supports the OP. I can't tell what you are trying to argue for, it just seems like a bunch of counter arguments backed up with faulty logic. Don't take offensive to that, but really, I am confused on whether or not you feel the format is health.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Pokedrawer +, Pokedex Handy, Expert Belt, Broken Time Space, all of the SP engine, Luxury Ball, VS Seeker... Not to mention that the no one plays Rotom or Alph, but everyone played Azelf. Calling Magnezone a replacement for Uxie is like spitting on Uxie's grave; no one played Bebe's, but they were already playing Communication and Rosy's wasn't even legal last format. Calling those cards replacement for anything is borderline offensive IMO.

Granted they weren't the best replacement cards by any means but it's what the current card pool in Modified has to offer whether we like it or not. I wasn't trying to offend anybody so don't take it the wrong way. BTS was amazingly good and I doubt there will ever be a replacement for it unless we get lucky again. Azelf is better than Rotom/Alph 4 however the risks with Rotom/Alph 4 seemed to outweigh it's playability. As for Magnezone Prime being a replacement for Uxie it goes both ways, you either run Draw Supporter Engines (PONT, Copycat, Judge, etc.) or you run Magnezone/Ninetales your pick, both If you're running Yanmega with Magnezone.

Yeah Rosanne's wasn't legal last format but last format made me miss it alot because of the versatility of getting early game Basic Energies and Basic Pokemon in the process. Now granted getting 3 Basic Pokemon instead of 2 with Collector is amazing for HGSS-On but I still miss being able to get energies I needed due to the versatility that Roseanne's offered in DP-On. With almost every deck running up to 14 Energies in every deck it's very hard to squeeze in Interviewer's to get them when you've got the drawpower that makes up for it, not that it's a bad thing and it's not.

Have fun slipping a Entei Suicune Legend line into a deck as a counter, tell me how that goes. If you don't own a set of Yanmegas, you aren't going to do well in this format

Why does it seem like everyone keeps saying that Yanmega Prime is unstoppable? Trainer Lock doesn't die to it despite the bench sniping threat from Linear Attack. It would take 3 hits from Yanmega to KO Vileplume while it would take at least 4 to KO Gothitelle since it has 10 more HP than Vileplume. Sure Linear Attack takes out an Oddish in one hit from Catcher big deal, just have a second one to Rare Candy it up to a Plume or use Sunshine Grace from Sunflora to get the Plume out faster unless they take out Sunkern or Sunflora out first with Catcher.

As for Entei/Suicune LEGEND yeah google Cawthorn's deck made it look like child's play, but in any other deck it's not that easy to setup granted you need to Pokemon Communication the pieces and If you get Trainer Locked from Vileplume or Gothitelle well all you have left to rely on is by running Twins, Sage's Training, and/or Draw Supporters. Twins is a godsend for getting the LEGEND pieces If you're behind on prizes and Sage's Training is almost the equivalent of MTG's Fact or Fiction for getting them as well.

It's funny, because Reshiboar was dead before Catcher came out >_>

Too slow I imagine compared to TyRam? :/