Deck Discussion #7: Speedrill

[StealthAngel667]

Hm...This thread needs more whining. I'll add some.
Legoes can autowin Beedrill if it has a good start. If not, it can still lose easily. Heck, it could get Beedonked. But no matter how you look at it, GHQ and sniping for 80/bench restricion is going to cause Beedrill a bad matchup. If they get this going, that is. Which is not all the time, true. But the whole Legoes idea can give Beedrill problems. Dialga G is worse. Mesprit + Deafen is basically a turn the Beedrill player has to pass without doing much. Then again, Dialga only did 10. So yeah.
Gengar is quite a bad matchup because people tend to forget about Poltergeist. Beedrill needs quite a lot of Supporters and Trainers and chances are that after your turn and Claydol, you got a fresh hand of 6 Trainers/Supporters you're not yet able to play. (Mostly NM/BTS/Candies hogging your hand for later) Also Beedrill has no good way to avoid Fainting Spell without leaving it vulnerable to counterattack. Of all decks out there, it is however one of the least Power-full decks. Protect RR Beedrill and Shadow Room is a wasted attack.
Beedrill likes to have a big bench, there's no denying it. Even if it's just a Kakuna prized, that Kakuna could prove critical. Of course, you won't play Azelf vs. Gengar, anyone can figure that out. Still, that early-game Uxie might mean setup or no setup. Literally, lol.
Still, Nidoqueen RR does NOT prove a threat.

 

[DarthPika]

Replies in bold.

just cause you have spent months play testing a deck doesn't make you the best player of it in the world.
I never claimed to be the best player in the world. I just have my doubts that others here have tested quite as much as I have. Furthermore, I have a whole team of people that I get info from. I do know what I'm talking about.
And actually, I am pretty sure Worlds is the true test of how good a deck is.

US Nationals is the hardest event in the world. Worlds is easy in comparison. So no, Worlds is not the true test of how good a deck is.

US nationals is just one of the many events out there. Japan nationals are just as important, and not every nationals consist of like 30 people, as you are seeming to say.

Yes, it's one of many, but it's also the largest tourney in the world. I do think that puts it a cut above the rest. And I never said that everyone elses nats is 30 people. I was just using it as an example as I have had several people try to use how a deck performed at a low scale nats to show how good a deck is.

Just cause we don't devote ALL our time to researching a deck doesnt put us at the bottom tables.

I never said that. I said that those who blindly believe what THEY think and are unwilling to accept that they are wrong will wind up at the bottom tables.

In fact, I was missing 16 cards from a Speedrill deck and I got 4th, so I am pretty sure I was NOT in the bottom...and if so called "scrubs" are the reason you don't want to help, than anyone who objects to your all mighty knowledge must be a scrub.

Uhhh... Good job? :/

What country and what age dev please. Here's why I said people who post like you are scrubs. It's not because you object what I say. It's because no matter WHAT I argue, no matter how well I point out that yes, I'm actually right about something, you'll just brush it off and give some weak excuse. Numbers and facts back up my arguments. You have NOTHING to back yours up. Welcome to the real world. It's not about what happened or what is, it's about what you can PROVE.

 

[#1weavile]

I wish DarthPika would just go back to Pokegym and stop being so immature. IF you have spent so many "months" testing why didnt you win Nats, and why dont you win all the other tourneys because your so perfect! Maybe you should stop looking at evryone else, and take a minute to look at yourself in the mirror. Lou did well at his Nats fair and square, and NOT because you "think" there is a lack of competition over there! Celebi KNOWS what he is talking about! He also made Top16 with speedrill! So darthpika, let me ask you this question: How did you do at Nats?!

 

[DarthPika]

First off, I would like to point out that I did not use Beedrill.

I went 6-2 in swiss, and had horrible luck in top 128.

I didn't say that Lou didn't have competition. I just said that going by a small nats is NOT a good way to judge how good/bad a deck is.

Why didn't I win nats? I do hope you realize that no amount of skill or play testing alone will win you US nats. In addition to those you need an incredible amount of luck. You can't seriously tell me that an event as huge as US nats doesn't take a great deal of luck to win.

Celebi is in seniors. I discount seniors dev placings from my arguments as their meta is very different from masters. Nothing against seniors, but many of them still have a lot to learn. As a good senior friend of mine once said, "most seniors are so bad at this game".

I never said I was perfect, and I would be an idiot to say I was... I know I'm far from perfect. I am not and do not pretend to be perfect, but I DO know what I'm talking about. You do realize that one doesn't need to be perfect to actually know how something works?

 

[Celebi23]

I love how my huge reply just gets completely ignored.

But you are right that a lot of Seniors have stuff to learn. I do. But honestly, can you honestly take 32 players from over 200 and call some of them bad?

Also, in Masters (cause this apparently the best division to use), did you ever take into account the percentage of good players who ran Beedrill? A lot of people played SP decks or Gengar from what I heard from masters players. A lot more of the top cut was SP and Gengar than it was Beedrill. However, if only 2 good people played Beedrill and 20 played Gengar and 100 played their SP decks, can you honestly call that a fair sample?

Also, even though Seniors might have some worse players than Masters, it shouldn't be a completely ignored division. Like I said 32 players of over 200 should be a fairly good sample of the better players.

 

[Seth1789110]

Why didn't I win nats? I do hope you realize that no amount of skill or play testing alone will win you US nats. In addition to those you need an incredible amount of luck. You can't seriously tell me that an event as huge as US nats doesn't take a great deal of luck to win.

Umm, I can, and I will. First off, this game is not a huge gamble. Sure, some luck is involved, but not a GREAT DEAL. It takes so much skill to win such an event. To back up #1weavile, if this game takes so much luck, then why would you spend so much of your time with pokemon TCG experts to learn the tricks and the trades of a game, and then only get stuck into top 128?

Celebi is in seniors. I discount seniors dev placings from my arguments as their meta is very different from masters. Nothing against seniors, but many of them still have a lot to learn.

So what? I can tell you, that just because we are younger, does not make us worse. Sure, some of you may have more experience than us, making you better, but that doesn't make us bad. I am 100% positive that if they had a match of seniors against masters, it would be a pretty fair fight, because the Luxape deck that won masters is very similar(if not exactly the same) as a Luxape run by a senior. Just because the same deck is being played by someone of a different age doesn't make that better. We may have a lot to learn, but I am pretty sure masters do to. No age division is the best of the best. Some may be better than others, but you cannot judge a division just by the age of the people in it. I am willing to bet you that a fair chunk of masters right now are less experienced that a junior player, and would lose to say a 8 year old. Everyone sitll has a lot to learn. This is a constantly changing game, so no one is always the information supercomputer.

First off, I would like to point out that I did not use Beedrill.

Why not, you seem to know soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about it. Did you play any gengars that day? Be honest, if so, did you win against any, or did you get slaughtered every time cause Speedrill is such a bad match-up to Gengar? Hmmm?

What country and what age dev please.

Senior from the USA, and I bet that I would stand an equal chance of fighting you Speedrill against Gengar ANY day.

 

[Celebi23]

I hate to contradict you as we both agree, but a Luxape deck didn't win Seniors. X_X I think you just mixed the two up and meant to say that the Luxape that won Masters and was very similar to one that was played in Seniors. Just pointing that out.

 

[Amt]

Yeah, LuxApe didn't win Seniors... Lol.

 

[Seth1789110]

yeah, thanks for catching that lol. It was 1 of the two haha, i will edit. But my point remains valid!

 

[Ariadosguy]

Seth, by your story you came 4th at US Nats... I don't remember Beedrill coming 4th.

I'm with Darthpika on this one (without the harshness ;p).

 

[Lou Cypher]

This kind of post is EXACTLY why I don't offer advice or help very much. No one ever wants to actually listen. All I ever have is some scrub telling me that my hours and hours of play testing and MONTHS of observing how decks do in tourneys is wrong. :/

You guys can believe what you want. Have fun at the bottom tables.

Celebi, I know how consistent beedrill is. That doesn't stop the fact that it did NOT do well at US nats. I don't want to hear junk about how "ohh but it got top cut in some country with an 20 something player tourney". Big stinking deal. US nats is the true test of how good a deck is. Beedrill just did NOT do well.

FYI, I'm discounting Steve Silvestros Beedrill, as his list was far different than anything else.

So, I love how you're calling me, and I quote, "Some Scrub". I guess defeating the top of Holland with a Porygon-Z deck doesn't give me ANY credentials at all, just as how my consistent positive record doesn't. Let me tell you this fun fact; I made it to the lower tables a grand total of two times during this season. One was when I was using a bad deck, one was a combination of bad luck + misplays from my side. Most of the time though, you'll find me around the higher tables. On average, I go at least 3-2, and thats mainly when im not using top tier decks (or get consistently bad matchups, like 3 Machamps in a row when playing Regigigas). I also love how you saying "I test more then all of you do!". Now I clearly remember you saying in the Pokegym threads about the foreign card ban that "not everyone has money to spend". From that I deduct that you have no job, and time to waste on playtesting. Guess what? Some people DO make money (like me), have a study to go with it (like me), have a family to help taking care for (like me) and as such may not have infinite time like you do. That, and I do have money to buy the fair English product, unless certain people here. Now I'm not saying that Holland is equal to the USA in skill, but I dare to wager that the Top 10% of Dutch players are as strong as the Top 10% of USA players, just as how bottom 10% is equal to your worst 10%. Yes, our top 10% is a lot smaller, but that doesnt mean its less skilled. I'd love to watch you facing our national champion, I'm sure you'll be feeling pretty humbled afterwards.

And Holland was one of the biggest Nationals in Europe. From the numbers I got, Germany had us beat...and that's about it. So saying I got tops in a Nationals with around 20 people is wrong.

Now listen up, and listen closely. You are the worst scrub with the least amount of respect for fellow players I have ever seen. A player is not a master? SCRUB! A player is not from the USA? SCRUB! A player didn't make top cut in USA Nationals? SCRUB! So you're just discounting ~95% of the world's players. Great going right there.

Now, I KNOW it can easily beat Gengar, provided a smart Beedrill player. I like to think I'm one of those (For reference, look up my match report from the T16 of my nats, I think you can't disagree with the way I solved that problem I got faced with there). Even against Palkia it can win, but with SP, starts, topdecks and all that go a long way for both sides. But since Palkia really HATES Luxray, I can't personally see Palkia being great anymore.
Beedrill has the means to beat pretty much every deck EXCEPT speed decks that chug out heavy damage for 1 energy. Palkia doesn't do that, but Kingdra and Rampardos do. Fortunately for Beedrill, neither are very common.
Now note how I said "the means to", not "an autowin to". I acknowledge Beedrill isn't the BDIF. It has slightly unfavorable matchups to LuxApe and Palkia, doesn't like Dialga either much, but everything else...yeah, there's the odd Blazetran it really doesn't fancy. Aside from those 4, I can't see bad matchups. And every deck has bad matchups, dont try to tell me that doesn't go for Palkia either. Luxape, Macheap and Gengar can all three give him huge problems.

Now I'm 99% sure DarthPika will just ignore this, like he does with every valid point. But we'll see.

 

[TruTruSky]

US Nationals is the hardest event in the world. Worlds is easy in comparison. So no, Worlds is not the true test of how good a deck is.

US Nats is hardly the toughest event in the world. Sure, there may be hundreds of players in each division, but you have to consider that many of those players lack skill. Worlds, on the other hand, only allows the best of the best into the event (And some people who did good in the grinder). The last time I checked, Worlds has had winners from Japan, Canada, and other countries. Heck, in 04, over half of the people who were in the top 4 in each age division were Japanese, each taking both 1st or 3rd place in each division as well as 4th in Masters. Americans took 2nd in each division as well as 4th in Juniors. A Canadian got 4th in Seniors. This shows that American players are NOT the best, and that other countries are just as good, if not better. Sheer numbers does not define the toughness of an event. It's the skill of the players that attend it.

 

[DarthPika]

I'll get back to this later, I'm too tired to post right now.

 

[TruTruSky]

Now I'm 99% sure DarthPika will just ignore this, like he does with every valid point. But we'll see.

It looks like you were right.

 

[DarthPika]

I JUST said I would get back to it later...

 

[Lou Cypher]

You could also have waited with posting until you were fully awake. But eh, I wonder what caused you to be that tired, cuz given the information I have of you, it couldnt POSSIBLY be school (holidays) or work (Cuz you got no spare money)...

 

[Seth1789110]

Seth, by your story you came 4th at US Nats... I don't remember Beedrill coming 4th.

I'm with Darthpika on this one (without the harshness ;p).

I didnt go to nats.

I'll get back to this later, I'm too tired to post right now.

Need time to figure another argument?

US Nats is hardly the toughest event in the world. Sure, there may be hundreds of players in each division, but you have to consider that many of those players lack skill. Worlds, on the other hand, only allows the best of the best into the event (And some people who did good in the grinder). The last time I checked, Worlds has had winners from Japan, Canada, and other countries. Heck, in 04, over half of the people who were in the top 4 in each age division were Japanese, each taking both 1st or 3rd place in each division as well as 4th in Masters. Americans took 2nd in each division as well as 4th in Juniors. A Canadian got 4th in Seniors. This shows that American players are NOT the best, and that other countries are just as good, if not better. Sheer numbers does not define the toughness of an event. It's the skill of the players that attend it.

Thank you TruTruSky. Thats what I told him, but apparently since USA is such a big country in terms of people of players, we are the best. While Worlds does have some US players, they will have to go up against some of the toughest players in the world. In some countries its even harder to get into Worlds than us. He says it takes alot of luck to win, and not as much skill.

DarthPika, you call us arrogant, and scrubs, but your exactly what you say you are. In almost any thread that talks about good potential I have seen you post something stupid in it, saying that the thread topic is bad. You say that Masters is better than seniors, just cause your older, which if far from true. IMO the divisions should be split into skill, but thats just me. In any case, you yourself are a pretty big "scrub".

 

[TruTruSky]

US Nats is hardly the toughest event in the world. Sure, there may be hundreds of players in each division, but you have to consider that many of those players lack skill. Worlds, on the other hand, only allows the best of the best into the event (And some people who did good in the grinder). The last time I checked, Worlds has had winners from Japan, Canada, and other countries. Heck, in 04, over half of the people who were in the top 4 in each age division were Japanese, each taking both 1st or 3rd place in each division as well as 4th in Masters. Americans took 2nd in each division as well as 4th in Juniors. A Canadian got 4th in Seniors. This shows that American players are NOT the best, and that other countries are just as good, if not better. Sheer numbers does not define the toughness of an event. It's the skill of the players that attend it.

Thank you TruTruSky. Thats what I told him, but apparently since USA is such a big country in terms of people of players, we are the best. While Worlds does have some US players, they will have to go up against some of the toughest players in the world. In some countries its even harder to get into Worlds than us. He says it takes alot of luck to win, and not as much skill.

DarthPika, you call us arrogant, and scrubs, but your exactly what you say you are. In almost any thread that talks about good potential I have seen you post something stupid in it, saying that the thread topic is bad. You say that Masters is better than seniors, just cause your older, which if far from true. IMO the divisions should be split into skill, but thats just me. In any case, you yourself are a pretty big "scrub".

I was just following the topic for a while and it really bothered me how DP keeps saying how the US Nationals, a tourney anyone and everyone can enter, is harder than an invite-only event.

And about the skill of the master's division, I know many parents who play in that division. Some of them are good, but most just lack the skill. They usually just play to combat the boredom of a 5 hour tournament, or in one case, to annoy the heck out of people by using Octillery.

 

[Ka$h Money]

@ Darth Pika, How can you say masters is the best division? Your telling me a child from 8-14 who wins his/her event is not as good as a masters winner? There are divisions for a reason and that is to make the game fair considering age and brain capability. If you got a good player in Seniors and got a good player in masters, if they were roughly the same, imagine how good the senior player would be when he reached masters? You type without thinking and it is annoying how you are being prejudice towards younger players. They are very good some of them considering their ages and this shows true skill if they can play at a high level at a young age.

I am sure if you faced any top 32 seniors, you would most likely lose unless you are really good at the game ( by your shear ignorance probably not)

 

[DarthPika]

Why didn't I win nats? I do hope you realize that no amount of skill or play testing alone will win you US nats. In addition to those you need an incredible amount of luck. You can't seriously tell me that an event as huge as US nats doesn't take a great deal of luck to win.

Umm, I can, and I will. First off, this game is not a huge gamble. Sure, some luck is involved, but not a GREAT DEAL. It takes so much skill to win such an event. To back up #1weavile, if this game takes so much luck, then why would you spend so much of your time with pokemon TCG experts to learn the tricks and the trades of a game, and then only get stuck into top 128?


What you just said shows that you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. I know many very good players who lost at nats due to 1 bad hand. Even pooka said he was lucky. Anyone who knows anything about this game should realize that it takes a good deal of luck to win an event as large as US nats.

Celebi is in seniors. I discount seniors dev placings from my arguments as their meta is very different from masters. Nothing against seniors, but many of them still have a lot to learn.

So what? I can tell you, that just because we are younger, does not make us worse. Sure, some of you may have more experience than us, making you better, but that doesn't make us bad. I am 100% positive that if they had a match of seniors against masters, it would be a pretty fair fight, because the Luxape deck that won masters is very similar(if not exactly the same) as a Luxape run by a senior. Just because the same deck is being played by someone of a different age doesn't make that better. We may have a lot to learn, but I am pretty sure masters do to. No age division is the best of the best. Some may be better than others, but you cannot judge a division just by the age of the people in it. I am willing to bet you that a fair chunk of masters right now are less experienced that a junior player, and would lose to say a 8 year old. Everyone sitll has a lot to learn. This is a constantly changing game, so no one is always the information supercomputer.

No, it doesn't mean you are worse. What you don't seem to understand is that MANY seniors are only average. The good ones that play on a master level usually are people like Curran Hill. Haven't you ever wondered why he does so well? Every year when these uber seniors move up to masters suddenly they don't do nearly as well. Why is this? Because there's more competition in masters. I'm not saying that there aren't good seniors, just that on a large scale they are still aren't quite at the top of their game.

First off, I would like to point out that I did not use Beedrill.

Why not, you seem to know soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about it. Did you play any gengars that day? Be honest, if so, did you win against any, or did you get slaughtered every time cause Speedrill is such a bad match-up to Gengar? Hmmm?

Because I knew it wasn't going to win. It didn't win, and most of them did very badly. I tested the deck, and it just didn't cut it for me. What are you talking about in the second part of your post? I wasn't using beedrill. I crushed every gengar I played against with my deck. If I had been using beedrill there's a good chance I would have lost.

What country and what age dev please.

Senior from the USA, and I bet that I would stand an equal chance of fighting you Speedrill against Gengar ANY day.

I highly doubt that. You sound like one of many over confident seniors who thinks that they are unbeatable. I'm really not trying to be rude, but you don't seem to want to actually listen to anything I say. Back up your arguments with some facts or don't argue at all please.

This kind of post is EXACTLY why I don't offer advice or help very much. No one ever wants to actually listen. All I ever have is some scrub telling me that my hours and hours of play testing and MONTHS of observing how decks do in tourneys is wrong. :/

You guys can believe what you want. Have fun at the bottom tables.

Celebi, I know how consistent beedrill is. That doesn't stop the fact that it did NOT do well at US nats. I don't want to hear junk about how "ohh but it got top cut in some country with an 20 something player tourney". Big stinking deal. US nats is the true test of how good a deck is. Beedrill just did NOT do well.

FYI, I'm discounting Steve Silvestros Beedrill, as his list was far different than anything else.

So, I love how you're calling me, and I quote, "Some Scrub".

I wasn't actually talking about you.

I guess defeating the top of Holland with a Porygon-Z deck doesn't give me ANY credentials at all, just as how my consistent positive record doesn't. Let me tell you this fun fact; I made it to the lower tables a grand total of two times during this season. One was when I was using a bad deck, one was a combination of bad luck + misplays from my side. Most of the time though, you'll find me around the higher tables. On average, I go at least 3-2, and thats mainly when im not using top tier decks (or get consistently bad matchups, like 3 Machamps in a row when playing Regigigas).

I never said that you were a bad player. I said that those who are unwilling to face facts and will blindly use a deck no matter how bad it is will be at the bottom tables. My apologies if you were offended. I never intended to say you were a bad player.

I also love how you saying "I test more then all of you do!". Now I clearly remember you saying in the Pokegym threads about the foreign card ban that "not everyone has money to spend". From that I deduct that you have no job, and time to waste on playtesting. Guess what? Some people DO make money (like me), have a study to go with it (like me), have a family to help taking care for (like me) and as such may not have infinite time like you do.

Sorry, but I do have a job. I also am a full time college student, and have family matters to attend to. I don't have an infinite amount of time to spend on pokemon, I just know how to use my time effectively. I also have other people that help me test.

That, and I do have money to buy the fair English product, unless certain people here. Now I'm not saying that Holland is equal to the USA in skill, but I dare to wager that the Top 10% of Dutch players are as strong as the Top 10% of USA players, just as how bottom 10% is equal to your worst 10%. Yes, our top 10% is a lot smaller, but that doesnt mean its less skilled. I'd love to watch you facing our national champion, I'm sure you'll be feeling pretty humbled afterwards.

I'm not saying that Holland is bad. What I'm saying is that a small scale nats really doesn't show just how good a deck is. I would also love to face my national champion. I have my doubts that I would lose quite as badly as you seem to think. No, I'm not being arrogant, but there IS something that I like to call a "skill cap" to this game. What I mean by that is after a certain point the game all comes down to the luck of the draw. Also, I think it's plain stupid to think that just because someone won some huge tourney that they should be seen as near unbeatable. Pooka is just another player. I highly respect him, but I never would think for a second that I wouldn't stand a chance against him. With that kind of mentality you will never win.

And Holland was one of the biggest Nationals in Europe. From the numbers I got, Germany had us beat...and that's about it. So saying I got tops in a Nationals with around 20 people is wrong.

Again, I wasn't talking about you. I've had other players who DID have a 20 something nats tell me flat out that because they made such and such cut with so and so deck that means that they're right and I'm wrong. Sorry if you thought I was talking about you.

Now listen up, and listen closely. You are the worst scrub with the least amount of respect for fellow players I have ever seen.

Not true at all. I have respect for people who can give a good well thought out argument that's based on logic. Take Heavenly Spoon for example. I usually don't agree at ALL with him, but I respect him because he makes good arguments with facts and data to support them. I respect logic in people. What I don't respect is these random kids who've done half the work I have telling me that they're right because they don't like what I say. If I've snapped at anyone, I apologize. The past week has been very busy so I've been much more picky than usual.

A player is not a master? SCRUB!
No, I just said that people shouldn't use the senior dev or juniors dev for arguments. Both seniors and juniors have somewhat random metas that don't always reflect what the best decks are. Masters is much more "stable" and therefore is what people use when saying how good/bad a deck is.

A player is not from the USA? SCRUB!

I never said that. I have many good friends who play in Europe.

A player didn't make top cut in USA Nationals? SCRUB!

Many very good players didn't make top cut in US nats. It's the hardest tourney in the world. I would never consider anyone a scrub for not making the cut.

So you're just discounting ~95% of the world's players. Great going right there.

No, I'm just discounting the illogical ones.

Now, I KNOW it can easily beat Gengar, provided a smart Beedrill player. I like to think I'm one of those (For reference, look up my match report from the T16 of my nats, I think you can't disagree with the way I solved that problem I got faced with there).

It can easily beat Gengar just as easily as it can lose to Gengar. It really comes down to who goes second, and how well the Gengar player flips. It's a close matchup, but IMO Gengar has the slight edge.

Even against Palkia it can win, but with SP, starts, topdecks and all that go a long way for both sides. But since Palkia really HATES Luxray, I can't personally see Palkia being great anymore.

I'm not sure about that. Not that it really matters considering that Blaze/Lux will probably be just as bad for beedrill.

Beedrill has the means to beat pretty much every deck EXCEPT speed decks that chug out heavy damage for 1 energy. Palkia doesn't do that, but Kingdra and Rampardos do. Fortunately for Beedrill, neither are very common.
Now note how I said "the means to", not "an autowin to". I acknowledge Beedrill isn't the BDIF. It has slightly unfavorable matchups to LuxApe and Palkia, doesn't like Dialga either much, but everything else...yeah, there's the odd Blazetran it really doesn't fancy. Aside from those 4, I can't see bad matchups. And every deck has bad matchups, don't try to tell me that doesn't go for Palkia either. Luxape, Macheap and Gengar can all three give him huge problems.

I agree with this. That's why I consider Beedrill a high Tier 2 deck, just under Legos, Luxape and Gengar. It's a good deck, don't get me wrong. But so far, tourneys have shown that it dosen't quite have what it takes to go all the way.


Now I'm 99% sure DarthPika will just ignore this, like he does with every valid point. But we'll see.

I don't ignore valid points. I ignore people who don't use logical arguments.

US Nationals is the hardest event in the world. Worlds is easy in comparison. So no, Worlds is not the true test of how good a deck is.

US Nats is hardly the toughest event in the world. Sure, there may be hundreds of players in each division, but you have to consider that many of those players lack skill. Worlds, on the other hand, only allows the best of the best into the event (And some people who did good in the grinder). The last time I checked, Worlds has had winners from Japan, Canada, and other countries. Heck, in 04, over half of the people who were in the top 4 in each age division were Japanese, each taking both 1st or 3rd place in each division as well as 4th in Masters. Americans took 2nd in each division as well as 4th in Juniors. A Canadian got 4th in Seniors. This shows that American players are NOT the best, and that other countries are just as good, if not better. Sheer numbers does not define the toughness of an event. It's the skill of the players that attend it.

Look, I'm not the only player who thinks that US nats is the hardest event in the world. Not only does it take a tremendous amount of skill, but the luck factor involved is huge. US nats is all about odds. For instance, the odds of someone going all the way with out getting an atoloss somewhere along the lines aren't too great. With so many rounds anything can happen to anyone. Words is easier JUST because it's so much smaller. Not only is it smaller, but you're less likely to face the random decks that have a nasty tendency to beat what ever you're using that day. Yes, sheer numbers DO define the toughness of an event. Not only that, but you would be an idiot to say that the players in top cut aren't skilled. Trust me, after the first few rounds most of the bad players are weeded out. By the end of the day, the chances of you playing against an unskilled opponent are very low.

You could also have waited with posting until you were fully awake. But eh, I wonder what caused you to be that tired, cuz given the information I have of you, it couldnt POSSIBLY be school (holidays) or work (Cuz you got no spare money)...

I'm so terribly sorry that I'm not a morning person. >_>

Thank you TruTruSky. Thats what I told him, but apparently since USA is such a big country in terms of people of players, we are the best.

I NEVER said that. Would you please not put words in my mouth?

While Worlds does have some US players, they will have to go up against some of the toughest players in the world. In some countries its even harder to get into Worlds than us. He says it takes alot of luck to win, and not as much skill.

It takes skill. But only a complete idiot would say that it doesn't take a great deal of luck to win. What you fail to understand is that there's limits to what you can do. You can go into a tourney with the worlds greatest deck with out making a single mistake and STILL lose. Why is that? Because it takes a grand total of 1 bad hand to ruin your day. Only fools think that you can go into a tourney such as US nats or Worlds and win on pure skill.

DarthPika, you call us arrogant, and scrubs, but your exactly what you say you are.

Hardly. I give good arguments, yet you have yet to give me anything that I would call a logical argument. All you do is give WEAK examples and bad logic.

In almost any thread that talks about good potential I have seen you post something stupid in it, saying that the thread topic is bad. You say that Masters is better than seniors, just cause your older, which if far from true. IMO the divisions should be split into skill, but thats just me. In any case, you yourself are a pretty big "scrub".

NO! That is NOT true. Look, I have many friends in seniors who admit that it's stupidly easy. They're man enough to own up to the fact that most of their wins are cupcakes. Why does masters have the best players? Why don't you use some simple logic. All the good juniors become seniors, and all the good seniors become good masters. But wait... there's no where for the good masters to go, so all that happens is an ever increasing amount of good masters.

I was just following the topic for a while and it really bothered me how DP keeps saying how the US Nationals, a tourney anyone and everyone can enter, is harder than an invite-only event.

Please see my reasoning in a previous reply as to why US nats is the hardest event in the world. Several of the best players in the worlds agree with me on this.

And about the skill of the master's division, I know many parents who play in that division. Some of them are good, but most just lack the skill. They usually just play to combat the boredom of a 5 hour tournament, or in one case, to annoy the heck out of people by using Octillery.

Yes, there are plenty of bad masters. BUT at a tourney as large as US nats, there's a HUGE amount of good masters. After a few rounds go by, most of the good players tend to sift to the top. I don't know if you have ever played in US nats in masters, but let me assure you. If you win, and if you keep winning, it gets HARD. From what my friends in seniors told me, that dev only started to get really hard in top cut. Masters gets hard around round 4. Again, this has to do with the fact that all the good players usually beat the bad players causing the top tables to be extreamly difficult. Add on top of that the number of rounds involved and US nats is the hardest tourney in the world.

@ Darth Pika, How can you say masters is the best division?
Please see my reply above.

Your telling me a child from 8-14 who wins his/her event is not as good as a masters winner?

Probably not. Keep in mind, this also has to do with how your brain develops. A 17yr old usually is smarter than a 13 yr old. This isn't saying that the 13yr old wont be as smart as teh 17yr old one day. Just that his brain isn't as developed yet.

There are divisions for a reason and that is to make the game fair considering age and brain capability. If you got a good player in Seniors and got a good player in masters, if they were roughly the same, imagine how good the senior player would be when he reached masters?

FYI I played against the previous years senior nats champ and won. He was quite a good player. Sadly, seniors is lacking in players of his skill.

You type without thinking and it is annoying how you are being prejudice towards younger players.

I have nothing against younger players. I just said NOT to use their age dev as an example of how good/bad a deck is.

They are very good some of them considering their ages and this shows true skill if they can play at a high level at a young age.

Key word there. "Some of them". Yes, some of them are good, most of them not so much. I'll stress this again, this isn't saying that they will always be bad players, just that they need to "grow up" a little more.

I am sure if you faced any top 32 seniors, you would most likely lose unless you are really good at the game ( by your shear ignorance probably not)

Top 32 seniors isn't THAT good. I'm not being arrogant, but it's silly to say that I would lose to them, since I know as a fact that I wouldn't. I'm sure many of them would put up a good fight, but to say that I would out right lose to them is just stupid. I would say that the best senior players can go even with the best master players.

For the last time, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST SENIORS. I just said NOT to use them as an example for how good/bad a deck is JUST because masters provides a much better example.