Future Metagame Speculation Thread

RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Blah said:
Don't worry about donk decks; it's a really bad strategy to build a deck around because donking EX's is next to impossible and if your opponent starts more than one Pokemon, the game just ends there.

However, Virbank is going to play a massive role in the metagame. The Hypnotoxic Laser/Virbank combo is going to be played in any deck that can find room for it. I disagree with you about the rogues though; in fact, the existence of Hypno/Virbank is actually going to destroy any chance of Rogues succeeding because the format is going to be too fast and damage heavy for anything like that to succeed.
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However, it should be noted that when running a stage 2 deck or Eels, you should be worried about random donks from Tornadus and Landorus. While they won't happen every game, they will increase because of PHB and Virbank.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

I wish that they would just make everything else gain HP in proportion. If they do not, I don't know what will happen...

HTL and VCG make a lot of things better, but I don't think they fully kill the format. Keldeo and Plasmaklang are both being thrown around and they're fine, so I don't think this is devastating news.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Hypnotoxic Laser/Virbank has been released

R.I.P. 2012-2013 Format.
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I haven't lost to a decklist yet that runs those cards, annoying yes but no real threat. THE FORMAT LIVES ON!

I wish that they would just make everything else gain HP in proportion. If they do not, I don't know what will happen...
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At this point I'm willing to make a ridiculous rouge deck that runs like 2 potion and 4 pokemon center to out weigh the use of virbank just to spite people. Also the use of scramble switch kind of makes great use of not actually having to lose much and then ssu or max potion.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Just because you haven't lost to it doesn't mean it isn't a threat. The fact that almost every metagame deck is going to be running that combo means that your testing may be flawed.

I don't think it "kills" the format, but it certainly just reinforces the fact that big basics dominate. Any Stage 2 attacker just gets crushed by the sheer speed that the format is going to hit. It only gets worse after the next set when the plasma engine becomes good.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Blah said:
it certainly just reinforces the fact that big basics dominate.
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This is actually a good thing, in my opinion. Those basic decks require much more skill to play than stage 2 decks. (The ones we have in format, right now). Once you setup something like Blastoise/Klinklang/Hydreigon, it's pretty much a no-brainer to play that deck.

I do think though that Hypnotoxic Laser is a horrible card. Not due to the insane amount of damage it adds combined with Virbank City Gym, but the luck it involes with the sleep condition flips is just stupid. Kinde reminds me of the HGSS format with Cleffa/Tyrogue.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Those Stage 2 decks being "auto-pilot" once the Stage 2 hits the floor is entirely because they can use these Big Basics to attack with. Klinklang is nothing without things like Darkrai, Keldeo and Mewtwo to attack with. Blastoise is nothing without Keldeo, Mewtwo or now maybe Kyurem. Hydreigon is nothing without Darkrai.

Even beyond that there's plenty of thought in playing them. You have to make sure that you can keep that ability live on the field for as long as you need it, which is hard when your opponent is actively trying to take it away from you. Not to mention the inevitable consistency you'll lose by having to play larger pokémon counts as well as Rare Candy (and maybe thicker Skyla lines than other decks, which can focus more heavily on draw support).

There are many many Stage 2 pokémon which are deemed bad in this metagame too, when in reality they aren't. Stuff like Empoleon is amazing - it's like a bigger Jumpluff (the old one with Mass Attack) with an added draw engine, but it's terrible in this format because the basics are just better than it. Infernape is another card that would be incredible if the EX's weren't so overpowering - it's a stronger version of the original Infernape, which if I recall correctly was one of the strongest cards of its time. Gallade is probably going to be a bad card as well, despite its natural synergy with Gardevoir and an attack that rivals Mewtwo's, simply because it is stage 2.

These sorts of cards have been main attackers in world-class decks before in prior formats, but that is all ruined because the EX's just hit so much harder for a fraction of the deck space, and a fraction of the effort to put them out onto the field. Whilst I don't necessarily HATE this format as much as many people (well, I can't play Plasma cards till they come out on PTCGO since I don't play irl), I can't say it's particularly balanced in terms of true deck variety. Sure, there's like a million different Big Basic decks you can make, each with potentially one evolution chain to support them. But when you have to shelf any and all evolutions that don't have an ability to support the basics if you want to win, that isn't exactly balanced...

Who knows though, maybe that's just what people want nowadays...
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Emboar rayquaza is going to hit pretty hard. Watch it top if not win states
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

In theory yes. Play against the deck with a competent player running it.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

gamercal couldn't have said it better. The reason I don't like the dominating basics is because it ruins the chances of cool and creative cards/decks succeeding at all.

As a note about Emboar/Rayquaza, I don't know why it'll do any better now then it did in the past. It gains absolutely nothing from Plasma Storm and it'll have all the same problems as before, only this time the format is much faster and high damaging because of Hypnotoxoc Laser.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Blah said:
gamercal couldn't have said it better. The reason I don't like the dominating basics is because it ruins the chances of cool and creative cards/decks succeeding at all.

As a note about Emboar/Rayquaza, I don't know why it'll do any better now then it did in the past. It gains absolutely nothing from Plasma Storm and it'll have all the same problems as before, only this time the format is much faster and high damaging because of Hypnotoxoc Laser.
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The reason it didn't do well is because it was underplayed and underhyped. People think it has a bad matchup against Blastoise because they see Emboar's type and assume water beats fire. What they don't realize is that it's just as easy to KO Blastoise with Rayquaza as it is to kill Emboar with Keldeo and that Rayquaza isn't weak to water. With Tropical Beach, Rayboar can be incredibly threatening.
 
Future Metagame Speculation

^Except not really. Keldeo easily takes out Emboar. Without Emboar you can't dragon burst.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

I'm actually not looking at it from the point of a minor type advantage; heck, Keldeo could take down Emboar pretty easily even if it didn't have a type advantage.

It's the point that it's very clunky and fails for the same reason that all of the other Emboar variants have failed. The way Stage 2's work in this format are either try can play off the field (Darkrai/Hydreigon) or give some other insane advantage to you (Blastoise). The obvious argument is that "Why is Blastoise any better than Emboar in this situation?" It's because Emboar/Rayquaza requires energy from the hand EVERY single turn, meaning it's very reliant on draws. Unlike Blastoise, which has Keldeo as an easy way to avoid putting switch in the deck, Emboar/Rayquaza would have to pack in Switch along with all the stuff like Energy Retreival and the two types of energy it's running. Despite that Blastoise faces the space issue when Black Kyurem EX is released it's somewhat dampened by the fact that Blastoise still has a great attacker it can utilize without BKEX, while Emboar doesn't really have a ton of great options. Emboar also has some serious issues dealing with Hypnotoxic Lasers hitting its attackers every turn.

If you want to use Rayquaza, use Eels. Even though it technically requires more setup, it can play off the field, is less tight space, and has quite a few options other than Rayquaza EX. I don't think Emboar/Rayquaza was underhyped/played; it was probably tested and then abandoned when people realized that it wasn't very good.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

camoclone said:
^Except not really. Keldeo easily takes out Emboar. Without Emboar you can't dragon burst.
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That's why you setup 2 Emboars.

@Blah While it does have disadvantages, you win the game in three attacks, as opposed to Keldeo, which must resort to 2HKOing. Dragon Burst is just so powerful, and the possibility of dealing 180 damage a turn is amazing. Tropical Beach also solves the drawing every turn problem. Even if you're not a believer, test it because it's better than you'd think.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

pokemonjoe said:
camoclone said:
^Except not really. Keldeo easily takes out Emboar. Without Emboar you can't dragon burst.
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That's why you setup 2 Emboars.
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Easier said then done, and you can easily KO two, and three is way too many for you to setup.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

QWERTY DITTO said:
pokemonjoe said:
That's why you setup 2 Emboars.
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Easier said then done, and you can easily KO two, and three is way too many for you to setup.
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In the time it takes your opponent to KO 2 Emboars, you can KO 2 Keldeos.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

It's why the Keldeo player shouldn't attack the Emboar unless there's only one out.

It's true that it can win in three turns with a perfect setup, but being tight for space and having a lack of options is where I see the deck fall apart. I also feel that it's completely outclassed by Blastoise at this point; Black Kyurem EX does 200 damage for the same amount of energy that Rayquaza EX can do 180 for, and Blastoise comes with a host of other advantages while Emboar doesn't.
 
RE: Future Metagame Speculation

Can someone explain what exactly makes Emboar Rayquaza better than it was before Plasma Gale? It certainly wasn't viable before Plasma Gale (or maybe it was and nobody played it, but in that case explain why anyone will play it with Plasma Gale out) and so I see no point in this argument unless you can explain why RayBoar is better than it was before, cuz I certainly don't see anything.
 
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