PokeBeach's Official 5th Gen Ban List

RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

You can use them in Ubers always. If you aren't doing Ubers, ask your opponent beforehand. I'm generally fine with my opponent using them.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

iisnumber12 said:
Brendan Zheng had Drizzle and Swift Swim and Drizzle on the same team...
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And that was at a VGC tournament, which is Doubles, not a Singles battle with PokeBeach ban lists...
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

VGC goes by the official Pokemon banlist; Pokebeach's banlist is an adaptation of Smogon's, which is based more on Pokemon usage and counters, rather than Pokemon status (which is what Pokemon's banlist goes off of).

the two systems can't really be compared to each other
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

The fact that 3 out of the 4 weathers are "suspect" is a little much, personally. As of right now, everything is fine in the metagame with all the weathers active. The swift swim + drizzle ban leveled out rain, along with the departure of Thundurus. Sandstorm has always been relatively stable, even more so with Excadrill gone. Sun? Really? if anything the biggest Drought threat is growth mixed venusaur, and even that isn't all too scary. I don't think any of those should be on the suspect list, because none of them are even close to being at a point of broken. People need to learn how to adapt to the metagame, as opposed to ban everything that made it different from the previous generations.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

I don't really think Drought needs to be considered suspect either. Sun teams more often than not will lose to a rain team. I didn't agree with some of the other bans Smogon does because I've never had problems with the Pokemon, but it might just be due to how I construct my teams.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

This is currently being discussed. I, for one, do not feel Deoxys-S to be ban worthy. While I will agree it can reliably get up hazards, they can just as easily be removed or done by other Pokemon in the metagame. As far as I remember just getting hazards set up reliably is not grounds for being Uber, just as Stealth Rock weakness has no effect on if the Pokemon should be Uber. There is also the factor of Magic Bounce which reflects entry hazards back at the user as well as Taunt, Toxic, and other status moves. This did not exist previous generations.

Dual Screens is a little more threatening, but Deoxys would be giving up an entry hazard if it went that route since it needs to run Taunt for that set to work or it is Taunt Bait itself. Remember also that some Pokemon with Prankster have Taunt such as Whimsicott and thus would force it out. Deoxys-S also has to waste one of the precious turns of Dual Screens switching out since on its own it can't inflict any major damage. If you look at other Pokemon that can perform Dual Screens, Latias really seems like it would be better for the job. It has higher HP and Special Defense than Deoxys-S. It also has better Special Attack so it can actually dish out damage while still having the Speed necessary to get the screens off before opponent's.

Players are suppose to adapt to the metagame, not the other way around. Is it even that hard to have one Pokemon with Brick Break on your team? Scizor comes to mind first as it is quite common still. It can be used as one of the attacks on Dragonite / Salamence to go along with Dragon Dance and Outrage / Dragon Claw. Just having it also helps both of those Pokemon defeat T-Tar which otherwise can threaten either.

I personally lost a lot of respect for Smogon on this decision. Dragonite is much more worthy of being banned, as is Volcarona, yet neither of them are banned. I could care less if either of those two get banned, but really teams that are great should not have problems with them. Things seemed to have changed a lot from when I used to lurk a lot. I even voted a couple times back in fourth generation.

Vote: Not banned
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Annoying =/= Ubers, but Smogon appears to not have seen this. I agree with Mark as to not ban Deoxys-S.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

I have to disagree with you DE. Deoxys-S may not be the best supporter in the tier, or the best offensive force, but the fact that its impossible to figure out which Deoxys-S set is used can cost you a Pokemon. Compare it to Thundurus from last round. You bring in your Gastrodon not expecting Grass Knot, and whoops, your Gastrodon just died. The same thing happens here.

Do you expect the Support Dual Screens set with Magic Coat and Psycho Boost to round it out when you see Deoxys-S? Yeah, probbably. So let's send in Scizor. Next turn, whoops, you just lost your Scizor because its actually the offensive set. Lets flip it around and say that the offensive Psychic/HP Fire/Superpower/Ice Beam is what we're predicting. Let's scout for the Hidden Power Fire with a switch to Scizor, and then another switch out to Rotom-W, and... Deoxys-S used Stealth Rock. $10 says that Deoxys-S uses Spikes next turn, and it still hasn't been damaged yet. With all the residual damage, taking down the Pokemon will be a big pain. There's no way of stopping it unless you have a lot of luck and crazy prediction.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Setting up guaranteed hazards or guaranteed Screens (Tornadus doesn't run Taunt, Whimsicott and Sableye aren't common) makes it easier for others to sweep, much easier. Its very difficult to stop because the offensive set poses a large threat and there's no way of telling which Deoxys-S set is used until it makes its move, and by then, the battle could be over.

Vote: Uber - Not too sure if my vote matters though
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Deoxys-S as an offensive set is completely outclassed by many other Pokemon. Latias, Dragonite, Infernape, Terrakion, and Volcarona are just some of the many Pokemon that outclass it as an offensive threat.

Tyranitar is also a counter to the Deoxys-S as I don't recall Deoxys-S having HP Fighting very often. I'll end up posting more later, I have to leave now.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

I strongly agree with Peachy on this one. Not only does it fall under the category of being broken due to the supportive reason, it also has an amazing unpredictability factor. I switch in my Tyranitar expecting a Special Attack only to be defeated by Superpower. I switch in my Gliscor expecting a Superpower, and instead it has Ice Beam. My Scizor attempts to trap it only to be dealt with by HP Fire. You have no idea if your Deoxys-S "counter" is even going to work if it picks the appropriate move.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

It's like Thundurus, except the difference is Thundurus had basically one offensive set that was a flip between your coverage moves. If you sent out the wrong counter (like your Gastrodon eating a +2 Grass Knot), that was basically game.

Deoxys has infinitely more options and, as Jabba pointed out, highly specialized Deoxys counters get set up on by Deoxys it's not supposed to counter, not to mention are a liability for the user because they're highly specialized counters to one Pokemon that may or may not be on the opponent's team (referring to the flavor of Deoxys you're countering, not whether or not Deoxys is actually on the team). Teams without Deoxys put you at at disadvantage because, well, you have a highly specialized counter to a Pokemon that isn't on their team. :|

There's also the fact that even without maximum Speed investment, it can still outrun almost everyone.

The support characteristic might not be used anymore but Deoxys still fits that to a T.

I'm convinced, it is definitely uber.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

I know I'm probably going to get blasted for this, but I don't think that Deoxys-S should be classified as Uber. The fact that it it is unpredictable doesn't really warrant it a ban; any sets that are effective should be known by any good players, all it takes is smart playing and a bit of scouting. Life Orb/Choice Versions might be able to revenge kill a member of your team, but you should be able to know what moves any physical or specially-based Deoxys would be using. Being able to get hazards up should not even be a factor in banning Deoxys, because many other Pokemon can get Stealth Rocks/Spikes up almost as quickly, and not being a "suicide Pokemon" in the process. Taking down one Pokemon on your team due to unpredictability pales in comparison to Excadrill/Thundurus being able to sweep your entire team after good prediction on the opponent's part. It just seems to be a blindside ban, since I didn't hear any talk of Deoxys-S being broken recently, even during suspect testing, since Thunderbro and Exca were the primary focus. We blindly followed that ban, but now we are disputing this one because we don't agree with it?

Even though I disagree with the ban, I still say we should add it to the Ban List, since that list is the supreme ban list for competitive battling, and I don't think it would be fair to people with different opinions to base this ban and future bans on our Mods/Better Battlers own opinions, as opposed to the "standard" thinking of Smogon. I've stated my opinion on the ban, but adding it to the list would be the smart thing to do.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

It just seems to be a blindside ban, since I didn't hear any talk of Deoxys-S being broken recently, even during suspect testing, since Thunderbro and Exca were the primary focus. We blindly followed that ban, but now we are disputing this one because we don't agree with it?
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In that regard, I think it was the Thundurus ban that PB blindly followed. As for Excadrill? People have wanting to see that guy banned for the past several months; when I heard about it all I could think about was the inevitability of it.

As for Deoxys-S? I know I'm not competitive savvy, but I was surprised it was still in OU in the first place. This is because of the following:

~Tons of different options available and thus several different sets to be run. Well, point taken, that in itself doesn't really warrant a ban, but combine it with:
~180 base Speed. 180. Good luck getting anything faster not named Ninjask (even with NO speed investment he can outrun a lot). This means he can basically do whatever he wants when he wants and not get outsped, barring priority moves - then again he does get one of his own (Extremespeed) that can be put to good use.
~And he's got respectable stats in other areas as well (iirc it's 50/95/90/95/90/180), pretty decent across the board. That means that he will probably get at least 2 hits off, effectively letting him set up and wreak havoc how he wishes.

while we're at it why don't we kick off Deoxys-D as well? it has base 160 Defenses and access to recover, plus it's none too slow either
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Do you think Thundurus and Excadrill _aren't_ uber? We didn't follow their bans because we want to follow them, we banned them because they're freakin' uber. Not that they should have banned it in the first place, but hax items are allowed here and not smogon (though to be fair we did ban them alongside smogon).

Deoxys can beat every hazard setter by either Taunting them or outright murdering them with the appropriate move.

No one is saying that Deoxys can't be countered, but if you try to predict which Deoxys your opponent has and you guess wrong (or your counter gets killed with HP Fire or Superpower or anything), you're going to be at a significant disadvantage.

And Deoxys-S has always been suspect - at least here.

edit The reason Deoxys-D is not banned is because he has 90 speed (which is usually uninvested to boot). He may have godlike defense stats but he is actually susceptible to Taunt/Toxic like the rest of the spiker/walls.
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Hm, I suppose that makes sense. I keep forgetting that 90 Speed isn't as great as it used to be, now that there are a lot of things in Gen 5 that have 100+ Speed running around.

As I said earlier I agreed with the Excadrill ban, but I don't have thoughts one way or the other about Thundurus, as I'm not all that familiar with it (I don't use PO so my encounters with certain things are a bit limited). However, Prankster Taunt/T-Wave/Nasty Plot on something that can dish out some crazy damage is VERY annoying.
(oh wait that was directed at SL wasn't it)
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

Yes. Yes it was. :)

Prankster was icing on the cake. The real threat was NP/Tbolt/Focus Blast/[hp ice/grass knot/thunder wave/substitute].
 
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List

TDL said:
I switch in my Gliscor expecting a Superpower, and instead it has Ice Beam.
Click to expand...

Exactly what happened to me today. Exactly what happened.

Still on the fence about this. Life Orb Deoxys S is as dangerous as a semi truck hopped up on nitrous, but anything can ohko this guy (it has to take a hit first obviously), especially if it has been hit by stealth rock. Not to mention, it can't switch in to any unresisted attack without dying.

Then again, it could just light speed curbstomp you, prisoner style, simple as that. I mean, when it says "IMMA VIOLATE YOU", the manliest thing you can say at that point is "...for how long?"

so I'm kinda leaning towards uber, but in PokéBeachland my opinion mattereth not =/
 
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