P!P/Rules Should Garbodor be Banned?

[SpoonLarry]

@crystal_pidgeot

I never used consistency as my defense, I was simply explaining to you how the game works cause you don't seem to understand that, you don't seem to understand the importance of consistency and that might be the reason you are so apposed to the way they have decided thus far to go froward with Garbodor when the rotation starts, (assuming nothing changes before that happens). And you clearly seem to care about what card exists to discard tools otherwise you wouldn't be here talking about it, and btw there is a card, two actually, one that discards them and another that prevents them from being played Beedrill-EX can do it for one colorless, and Giratina-EX can stop them and many other very valuable things from being played, and tbh Garitina-EX has a much stronger lock than Garbodor does, and it can be set up in one turn as well, and doesn't suck. There now you can start a thread complaining about how Garitina should be banned for not having a way to kill it, I mean if a 100 dmg is hard for you to hit without abilities good luck hitting 170-210 with no special energy tools or stadiums, oh and Mega don't work either, but the good news is Garbodor can turn that one off so your good right cause Garbodor is OP!. Then when your done with that you can start a thread about how shadow stitching Greninja Should also be banned because it can also very consistently shut off abilities with only one card that can stop it, the new Pokemon Ranger supporter, that's one whole less card that can deal with Garbodor and its has 130-170 hp WOAH OP!

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

You can break the lock then play your deck's strategy by using Lysandre on the Garbodor, KOing it, and then continuing next turn. The fail-safe to prevent the card being broken is the fact that it has only 100 HP and Lysandre exists. If you KO that Garbodor and they don't have a Trubbish on the bench, you have at least a turn of abilities from then on. Maybe you have to give up a turn to take out a problem card - fine, you get +1 prize and a chance to get back into the game.

I have no idea why you don't care about casual or competitive play seeing as...I'm pretty sure those are the only ways you can play the card game. But I've given my argument and have no idea how to proceed from here lol.

Lysandre isn't a counter.

@crystal_pidgeot

I never used consistency as my defense, I was simply explaining to you how the game works cause you don't seem to understand that, you don't seem to understand the importance of consistency and that might be the reason you are so apposed to the way they have decided thus far to go froward with Garbodor when the rotation starts, (assuming nothing changes before that happens).

Yes you are. You just did it again. I'm apposed to Garbodor because there are no ways to discard tools. This has nothing to do with consistency at all. There are no options to discard them effectively without giving up your turn, which is something the Garbodor player doesn't have to do.

And you clearly seem to care about what card exists to discard tools otherwise you wouldn't be here talking about it, and btw there is a card, two actually, one that discards them and another that prevents them from being played Beedrill-EX can do it for one colorless, and Giratina-EX can stop them and many other very valuable things from being played, and tbh Garitina-EX has a much stronger lock than Garbodor does, and it can be set up in one turn as well, and doesn't suck.

Of course I care about it. I want balance in the game. Beedrill EX isn't even a option to consider for that for the reason I said before so I'm not even going to tackle that. Giratina EX isn't even overpowered but I guess that's subjective.

There now you can start a thread complaining about how Garitina should be banned for not having a way to kill it, I mean if a 100 dmg is hard for you to hit without abilities good luck hitting 170-210 with no special energy tools or stadiums, oh and Mega don't work either, but the good news is Garbodor can turn that one off so your good right cause Garbodor is OP!.

You don't have to play special energy or stadium cards. You dont even have to play mega evolved cards. My deck doesn't use any of these but I don't need to play Giratina EX to do these things. Hammers exist, other stadiums exist as do other cards that can take advantage of these things. There's also counters to these as well. Garbodor doesn't have any counters when the format shifts. Hitting 100 damage isn't hard to do. That was never my argument. Its that the player who uses abilities should be able to discard the tool on their turn and then play their decks strategy on their turn. I dont get what you're getting at here. Stop throwing those fish!

Then when your done with that you can start a thread about how shadow stitching Greninja Should also be banned because it can also very consistently shut off abilities with only one card that can stop it, the new Pokemon Ranger supporter, that's one whole less card that can deal with Garbodor and its has 130-170 hp WOAH OP!

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response...

 

[SpoonLarry]

Lysandre isn't a counter.

Lysandre is literally the best counter. You know whats better than discarding a tool card that can just as easily be replaced as it was for you to remove it, getting rid of the card entirely.

 

[bbninjas]

I find it extremely important, like REALLY important that people understand that Pokemon other than Shaymin EX have abilities and that they should be worried about Garbodor being in the format without any counters.

I'd like to refer you back to my post here, as I'm pretty convinced that Garbodor has a broad enough option of "counters", or ways to overcome. I noticed you quoted my post primarily to discuss definitions of skill (which I think you misunderstood), but you also commented on how you don't like aggressive, which is fine. But what about defensive counters, like Energy denial, a backup attacker, stall etc, which I'm curious to hear your opinion on? Furthermore, I am curious to know whether these Ability-based decks are actually effective against the other top tiers? I think that once all options are considered, there is not many decks that are nonviable purely (or even mostly!) because of Garbodor.

EDIT: I also don't think any/many people here are trying to argue that Garbodor is not balanced, because it certainly is not. We're trying to point out that it is not ban-worthy.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I'd like to refer you back to my post here, as I'm pretty convinced that Garbodor has a broad enough option of "counters", or ways to overcome. I noticed you quoted my post primarily to discuss definitions of skill (which I think you misunderstood), but you also commented on how you don't like aggressive, which is fine. But what about defensive counters, like Energy denial, a backup attacker, stall etc, which I'm curious to hear your opinion on? Furthermore, I am curious to know whether these Ability-based decks are actually effective against the other top tiers? I think that once all options are considered, there is not many decks that are nonviable purely (or even mostly!) because of Garbodor.

EDIT: I also don't think any/many people here are trying to argue that Garbodor is not balanced, because it certainly is not. We're trying to point out that it is not ban-worthy.

Like I said, if any of those counters were like Jirachi to where it prevented damage done to it then it would be a good option since you force your opponent to act but I dont find using 4 deck spots for Pokemon to discard them or using a 2 Prize pokemon as a option.

I don't really like aggressive decks because they dont fit my play style so I look for more defensive and defensive decks like abilities. The thing about no ways to discard tools in a aggressive format with Garbodor is it favors those fast hard hitting decks. While this is the nature of the beast with wanting a overall faster game, it makes playing decks with abilities hard to do or almost impossible.

I find nothing wrong with defensive counters, the game needs more of them, backup attackers or stall. None of these things are inherently broken but I do think Energy denial is something worth talking about since there are little options outside of trainer lock to prevent it BUT you have options. You dont have to run so many special energy or any at all and there are a ton of energy retrieve cards no one plays with so if a player loses to energy denial, then its technically their own fault for not running those cards. The difference here though is you can't remove Garbodor's tools.

Ability based decks can compete with the top decks when they are allowed to play on the same level. I this point, I seriously wonder if people think non shaymin ex abilities suck. My Ho-Oh Golduck EX deck has no issues beating top decks except Night March unless it draws bad so I run techs to make matchups better.

 

[bbninjas]

I find nothing wrong with defensive counters, the game needs more of them, backup attackers or stall. None of these things are inherently broken but I do think Energy denial is something worth talking about since there are little options outside of trainer lock to prevent it BUT you have options. You dont have to run so many special energy or any at all and there are a ton of energy retrieve cards no one plays with so if a player loses to energy denial, then its technically their own fault for not running those cards. The difference here though is you can't remove Garbodor's tools.

I think you missed my point - I'm saying that a deck could skillfully used defensive options (i.e. Energy Denial) to make Garbodor little more than an annoyance. Is your deck being slowed down? Slow your opponent down so you can build up a powerful back-up Pokemon and Lysandre out the annoyance.

Ability based decks can compete with the top decks when they are allowed to play on the same level. I this point, I seriously wonder if people think non shaymin ex abilities suck. My Ho-Oh Golduck EX deck has no issues beating top decks except Night March unless it draws bad so I run techs to make matchups better.

Considering there hasn't been many examples of non-Shaymin-EX abilities that make a strategy, excluding item lock and Greninja, so I'm not surprised to be honest. I would think that Ho-Oh/Golduck would have some attackers that would be able to fight off a Garbodor.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I think you missed my point - I'm saying that a deck could skillfully used defensive options (i.e. Energy Denial) to make Garbodor little more than an annoyance. Is your deck being slowed down? Slow your opponent down so you can build up a powerful back-up Pokemon and Lysandre out the annoyance.

Oh, thats what you mean. Well I would love to run hammers and such but like always, finding the space for them is always a pain. I would much rather run as many setup quickly as possible cards but believe me, hammers are always the 66th cards in the deck.

Considering there hasn't been many examples of non-Shaymin-EX abilities that make a strategy, excluding item lock and Greninja, so I'm not surprised to be honest. I would think that Ho-Oh/Golduck would have some attackers that would be able to fight off a Garbodor.

The deck has attackers to KO Garbodor. Ho-Oh EX is the decks main attacker and Lugia EX is there because I feel it has to be but I'm looking at other things as the meta shapes up. Its was never my intent to complain about not being able to KO a Garbodor, because I can with no issue. The problem I've had since the start was Garbodor being in a format where you can't counter it without putting yourself at a huge disadvantage and I have been very consistent with that, which is why I didn't want to bring my deck or the archetype into this but a example was needed. I don't want to make this about my deck or decks like it. Its about how a format with Garbodor affects decks that rely on abilities all throughout the game.

 

[Draaka]

It's no where near as bad as other cards in format (trev) when it comes to locks. And Pokemon don't really ban cards unless they really break the format. If it's just unfun or OP Pokemon designers just leave it and shrug (nightmarch).

Overall Garbotoxin is ok, it might be pretty strong depending on what trainers get reprinted in XY 11. But also XY 12 will be out soon, then a load of stuff in Sun and Moon 1. (Can we call Sun and moon sets S&M1, S&M2 etc? This amuses me.)

It's not fun, but competetive gaming isn't fun very often. And I think Garbodor will be competetive for quite a while yet.

 

[unrealtairo]

I know this thread is over a month old, and alot of people have been throwing the wait and see thing out, weve had time to do that now, but I have to say garb is a major problem, its letting alot of mega decks run wild big time, (its great if you control stadium with faded towns of course) and with no one turn counters its a problem. lysandre ok sure but even ohko isnt a counter its a draw back, especially when youre dealing with a 200+ hit a turn mega deck you need to focusing on, and greninja can forget about being in format unless you wanna replace bursting ballons for a freaking muscle band.

Sad part is I was actually excited to see that tools cant be discarded, until now where 95% of my opponents are running this in their suite regardless of what deck type i go to battle with, and i just refuse to use him, yeah i know thats a personal choice hindering only myself but i cant agree with this card not having a counter being acceptable. so well see how many agree vs dont soon. im sure the ppl using it love it, thats part of the problem.

it does "feel" abut as cheap as the old shiftry, not saying it is, but i havent had taste in my mouth like this sense then about a card.

When night march started happening I was actually amazed by it, I didnt like using it personally cause the turn time was too dang long for me, but i sure as heck didnt feel like i just put pennies in my mouth

 

[SpoonLarry]

@unrealtairo
Garbo isn't the reason why megas are popular right now, its that the meta has changed to accommodate their cost and they no longer lose on the prize exchange with heavy hitting non ex pokemon like nm. I honestly can't see any reason how you could even come to this conclusion, can you explain in more detail why you think this is the case? I understand that basically all viable megas don't have abilities of there own and so garbo hurts none mega decks more than them but at the same time there really isn't any good ability centric decks other than greninja, and even then I'm not so sure greninja would even be able to handle the new mega's even without garbo floating around. They all setup up faster than greninja and most can one shot them, mega sceptile completely shits on greninja cause it can heal, hit for weakness and has the stop trait, mewtwo even without garbo can easly handle greninja aswell, a turn one and maybe even turn two m ray wont give you any breathing room to setup your greninja. And it has only been 5 days, that's hardly enough time to determine anything, and honestly I think most good players have already determined that the meta isn't about garbo, but its about things like stadium control, tools, and energy and hand disruption, its started off with everyone fearing the fast heavy hitting m ray... but since then other pokemon like scizor and gardevoir have surfaced that don't rely on ohkoing everything in its path.

Honestly I think if greninja didn't have garbo to fear than it would only make mega's even more popular than you think they are with garbo in the picture, cause they are the perfect answer to decks that deal small chunks of damage like greninja, even nm struggled to get the ohko's on all the ex decks at worlds, and with parallel city and ninja boy, your not going to be able to reliably snipe shaymins anymore either.

 

[unrealtairo]

megas are not really all the threatening to greninja imo with eco arm, bursting ballons and swapping rough seas for faded towns if garbo wasnt a factor
try the 24 ticket tourneys, all of them are running garbos, greninja apperence or not.

at worst, let two frogs take a dirt nap and get two frogs full break, between shuriken retreat shuriken, ballon, faded, 80 attack, that can reach 280 dmg if the mega decides to attack and only one turn of faded being dropped. hardly medicore dmg. even without a ballon thats enough for a mega kill.
garbo cuts that possibility to only 160, and thats if you had a ballon and faded town out, no where near enough to threaten a mega in one turn anymore.
let alone a standard ex

for greninja decks dealing with garbo youd now be required to muscle band, waste a turn to lysandre, fall behind vs a mega deck cause of that, and loose all baloon potential. Where as before, it kept up fine.

ideally vs megas if garbo wasnt a factor I wont even be putting my frogs back out after getting all 4 on the mat, talon is who goes back in completing the setup on at least 3. and yes i know, respect to N being used at that point post talons attack by my opponent, but if im already a frog down it does make the opponent stop and rethink it since theyre now getting less cards for it.

soon as you would be ready with 2-3 breaks you could simply rod the ones you let perish back in and ball them back out keeping pace

 

[SpoonLarry]

megas are not really all the threatening to greninja imo with eco arm, bursting ballons and swapping rough seas for faded towns if garbo wasnt a factor
try the 24 ticket tourneys, all of them are running garbos, greninja apperence or not

your never going to get enough dmg on megas if you ever even get the chance to attack, lets be honest here, how many turns minimum does it take to setup a single greninja break? a perfect start without needing talonflame to get everything you need is walling out a frogadier and using water dupes, after that you still need 2 more turns to get the break out. You think bursting balloons is going to stop them dead in there tracks? the only reason why that worked is because smaller pokemon were in the meta. It takes most decks longer to setup a Garbo than it does there main mega attacker so your going to be confronting a lot of turn 2 210+ hp pokemon very frequently, bursting balloon's isn't the answer, getting the bubble paralysis wont do you any good half the time either, cause if they haven't mega evolved yet they can clear the status anyways, and its still a coin flip, and while you stall turns trying to setup a greninja break safely on your bench, all it takes is 1 lysandre at any given time before you can hit 210+ dmg including your bursting balloon dmg, and thats if they have no healing tech. It seems like a far stretch, and the finals match however rng one sided it was showcases this.

 

[unrealtairo]

you dont need four breaks to start combating megas.... you only need 2 and only 1 if they cant lysandre a ballon out, and by then you can start rodding them back into play. again, idk what greninja decks youve been playing but unless garbo is out, megas dont pose a a huge threat if both players rng is just average, dont forget using wally post froggadier isnt out of the question, not talking the worlds deck here. things have changed

 

[SpoonLarry]

you dont need four breaks to start combating megas.... you only need 2 and only 1 if they cant lysandre a ballon out, and by then you can start rodding them back into play. again, idk what greninja decks youve been playing but unless garbo is out, megas dont pose a a huge threat if both players rng is medium or average

I never once mentioned greninja needing to setup 4 breaks at once to combat any given situation at all, I merely stated the efforts required to setup just one while facing a 210+ hp pokemon who has already begun its onslaught

 

[bbninjas]

Reminder folks to stay on topic! This thread is for discussing whether or not Garbodor should be banned. If you find that your post is mostly talking about the rise of Mega Pokemon rather than Garbodor, then make a new thread in the TCG Competitive Play regarding the Rise of Mega Pokemon and discuss there. ~bbninjas

 

[unrealtairo]

well theres no denying that part of it, im very used to having only 4 prize cards left before im ready to dish out 220 dmg a turn, being its non exs vs exs though you make that time back quick and typically when i get down to two prizes the megas dont have the energy to keep up and the tables have turned,
end of the day thoughits not just about greninja decks, garbo really needs a better counter then "use lysandre"

 

[SpoonLarry]

@unrealtairo
that is the very point though, people who are against garbo use greninja as there data point because its the best ability centric deck and probably the only viable one, and people who are pro garbo also use greninja as there data point to explain why it wont matter as much as they think it will. If Garbo only shuts down one arguable viable deck and only slows down others somewhat than is garbo really that big a deal? I personally think having greninja out of the picture is a good thing, because it hurts the meta in the same way you people think Garbo does, except it actually does. It has a one sided ability lock and hurts all the squishier ability or non ability centric decks more than the bigger mega's do, making your data point a paradox.

 

[unrealtairo]

lol hello mega ex user. the same can be said both ways, and pokemon has endless combinations, greninja is only brought up the most cause more people know what it is by saying one word, if someone came in saying it completely trashes my xxx deck youve never heard of before or cant remember that doesnt make it false or not of any value.
theres absolutely no way this effects and shuts down "just one deck", thats a pretty closed minded statement for an opened minded and creative game

 

[SpoonLarry]

lol hello mega ex user. the same can be said both ways, and pokemon has endless combinations, greninja is only brought up the most cause more people know what it is by saying one word, if someone came in saying it completely trashes my xxx deck youve never heard of before or cant remember that doesnt make it false or not of any value.
theres absolutely no way this effects and shuts down "just one deck", thats a pretty closed minded statement for an opened minded and creative game

not a single one of you people have yet to mention a viable ability centric deck that cannot function without its abilities that isn't greninja, let me help you out, ill mention one, volcanion, any others? And before you mention things like Yanmega, they don't get shut down by having there abilities locked, just slowed down, so keep that in mind, it's a perfectly fair guideline to use given how you people put garbo on the pedestal, and don't throw clunky stuff out like magnezone, remember viable. And even if your statement were true why use a paradox as your example? And I have been play testing with an amphoros deck since the release of steam siege, which is a very similar deck to greninja that doesn't get hurt as badly by ability lock, I have even spent real money on the deck to try and make it viable, play testing at my locals, I like it but I have ultimately decided to settle with M Scizor. Have you tried using Garbo or mega decks? or are you so filled with hate towards them that it would shatter your pride to play them? Again the meta is still very young, don't jump to conclusions and jump on the Garbo hate train, because the truth is, this meta is a lot healthier than the last.

 

[Javi Blizz]

I don't think Garbo should be banned at all.

We're seeing a lot of M evolution decks (and not just 1/2), Rainbow Road, Yanmega, Volcanion AND Garbodor decks in this new standard. This is a lot more decks than the last season. Now imagine Garbodor doesn't exist: everyone playing Giratina EX as any M Evolution counter. Giratina also shuts down special energies (bye Rainbow Road), stadiums (again bye Rainbow Road, bye Volcanion), tools and can use Hex Maniac (hex + DCE lock = bye Yanmega). And I imagine all people saying Giratina EX should be banned as it forces you to play a fairy deck that doesn't rely on any of the past said things.

What I mean is that people should stop complaining and start thinking about how to play against what they think is toxic. Garbodor is a card that balances the meta as it stops stupid 200+ combos for 1 single energy as your loved Greninja BREAK, which were only healthy 'cause they could destroy NM easily, giving more variety to the meta to thing that were not NM/things that beat NM, including decks such as Serperior (beated Greninja) or Dark Tina and Aqua Box (beated Trev). If Garbo wouldn't exist, people would start complaining that Greninja...the same again...