SSB Brawl Discussion Thread

[fleetwood]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

"MK is decent" is a lie, decent doesn't even begin to describe him...

There's a lot of talk about banning Meta Knight from tournaments recently, but I'm assuming that's mostly from people on Smashboards. There's a reason that they're the butt of "No items, Fox only, Final Destination!" jokes.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

"MK is decent" is a lie, decent doesn't even begin to describe him...

There's a lot of talk about banning Meta Knight from tournaments recently, but I'm assuming that's mostly from people on Smashboards. There's a reason that they're the butt of "No items, Fox only, Final Destination!" jokes.

You know that statement is flawed as ever, right? Fox was 1st on the tiers list, but no character dominated competitive melee like Marth.
Final Destination was only one of 5 neutral stages, and after losing, one could counterpick a stage out of around half the remaining stages or one of the neutrals, Final Destination was one of the best stages in the game, but nowhere near the only stage used.

"No items" is very logical if you consider the concept of competitive smash. Items appear at random intervals on a random location, therefore, a player who is significantly worse than the opposition would still be able to win if the items would appear closer to him, or the items appearing closer to him would give him a significant advantage. Explosive crates make it all the more random and all the less tactical, and the fact that items could spawn during the execution of an attack just means you might blow up out of nowhere (it happens).

Please know that competitive melee was played with prizes of up to 10.000$ (that being the absolute max, though, and to win such an event, you really needed to know what you're doing). If one were to lose because of something as random when such an amount of money is at stake, yeah, you know.

What I don't get is why a lot of people criticized melee pros for their dislike towards items and such, but yet they themselves disliked other things which are far less random and far more tactical, like wavedashing and L-cancel, makes you think they just want to be good at a game without having to put effort into it.

In Brawl, that statement is more flawed than ever. FD is BY FAR one of the worst neutral stages ATM, and Fox is nowhere near the most powerful character anymore.

Items would only break Mr. Knight even more, as with his speed and air control he would be able to obtain the item more quickly. And if it were to obtain an item such as ray gun, he would gain the only thing he lacks, far-ranged attacks.

 

[fleetwood]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

"MK is decent" is a lie, decent doesn't even begin to describe him...

There's a lot of talk about banning Meta Knight from tournaments recently, but I'm assuming that's mostly from people on Smashboards. There's a reason that they're the butt of "No items, Fox only, Final Destination!" jokes.

(really long post, shortened to not make the quote really huge!)

Yes. I do know that it's flawed. I don't play Fox in Melee; I play Marth and Captain Falcon. The only thing I'm bringing up, though, is a rather popular joke (that is, "No items, Fox only, Final Destination").

I've been playing Smash Bros. since the N64 days. I know how items work. I happen to think that items make some battles (especially free-for-alls) a lot more fun, but I enjoy battles without items too. I have a group of friends that I play with regularly and we change it up when we play, since sticking to one style of play just gets really boring... to me, anyway. There is a pretty big debate going on, though, and it goes a little bit like this:

"If you can't adapt to items in a match, then you aren't as great at the game as you say you are."

I don't necessarily agree with that completely, but I do think that someone who is great at the game can be great at it no matter what the situation is. Of course there are exploding capsules and boxes, too, and you never know when they'll appear, but that's part of the fun. Unfortunately, a lot of people nowadays forget that video games are supposed to be fun ways to spend your free time...

I have played in Melee tournaments, and I've watched a lot of videos on YouTube as well, and I can quite honestly say that people who have played the game that much deserve to be that good at it. I played Melee up until the release of Brawl, but I didn't play it as much as the pros did, and that's probably why I'd probably never be able to beat someone like Ken or Bombsoldier. On that note, I have no idea how their fingers can move that fast, either. The whole part where people jump around on the stage shooting with Fox's/Falco's gun while changing directions in the air? No way could I do that, I had enough trouble doing it in just one direction.

Losing to a completely random element would definitely suck, especially if there's money on the line; I definitely don't disagree with you there. It's pretty difficult to "adapt" yourself back onto the edge when you have 100% damage and an exploding capsule gets thrown at you.

The thing about Brawl and Melee that astounds me, though, is how well people can play the Ice Climbers. Normally, they move in a synchronized pattern, but it's possible to break that pattern to chain an infinite amount of grab combos.

When Brawl came out, it was trash-talked because of how it was "slow" and "floaty," like people expected it to be Melee 2.0. I still play Melee, too, since it's a completely different experience, but I'd prefer to play Brawl.

My Internet connection is pretty shoddy and it lags quite a bit online, but maybe sometime soon I can play some games with some of you guys. Heck, Christmas break is coming up relatively soon and I'll finally get a month off from my classes to play some video games.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Items are just too hectic and random for me, but I'm probably too much of a control freak. I can't stand free-for-alls either, but yeah, with or without items doesn't really make a difference to me for those.

I have 2 mains, 2 casual mains and a bunch of other stuff I play for fun sometimes and I have a bunch of different play-styles with each of them (defensive vs offensive, aggressive vs safe, ...), combine that with the big number of stages (neutrals and counterpicks) which each offer different experiences and benefits/disadvantages for any character. Add to that that everyone has a different playstyle, and that everyone's playstyle evolves, and I don't think the game ever truly gets boring when you play without items. No 2 games are ever identical anyway, even when both players play with pretty much the same playstyle and the same character in both matches.

And it's not like I can't play with items either, I just prefer not too.

De-syncing in brawl is easier than in melee (I still can't do it, but whatever, I can't play as Ice Climbers at all for some reason), but yeah, it's some pretty crazy stuff.

Melee is indeed completely different, I still play it sometimes (I'm nowhere near as good as I used to be, I screw up everyting I was able to do easily, like wavedashes or my rest combos, jiggly is nothing like her brawl variant). But it's not because it's different doesn't mean it's worse, Melee is just way more technical, brawl is more mindgame-oriented.

 

[LuckyLuigi7]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

"MK is decent" is a lie, decent doesn't even begin to describe him...

Wolf is indeed decent, though.

What I like about Meta Night is that he is amazing in large courses. He can soar through the air, and can zip behind the enemy to attack. I just have a hard time controlling him.

 

[xxashxx]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

What is the scoop on Lucario? I am asking because while my friend is here he said he can get really strong and powerful. Also he gets stronger with Aura Sphere right? According to him it sounds like he is supposed to be very strong. Is that true? I think a few mods said he was not that good but I don't know their exact lines.

 

[Shade Daroach]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

What is the scoop on Lucario? I am asking because while my friend is here he said he can get really strong and powerful. Also he gets stronger with Aura Sphere right? According to him it sounds like he is supposed to be very strong. Is that true? I think a few mods said he was not that good but I don't know their exact lines.

The more damage lucario takes, the more damage he can output with his attacks. I think thats what your friend meant.

 

[xxashxx]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Hmm. That could be. I will have to PM him again. He is watermaster here on the forums if you want to ask him too.

 

[LuckyLuigi7]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

That's what I heard from a friend of mine, but I never thought is was true. So Lucario does get more powerful... that's a neat ability. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

 

[xxashxx]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

It is cool but I am not sure which way it works though.

 

[LuckyLuigi7]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Are there any other abilites like Lucario's in SSBB? Jigglypuff should have some ability in defense... Not anything like Pokemon abilites, but once you think Jigglypuff is doing great, some wild attack may knock Jigglypuff into the horizon for a KO when Jigglypuff is barely 90, just because of his defense. It's a huge downfall, and Jigglypuff needs a metal cap or some weight-bearing item in order to keep his feet on the ground. I'm glad Pichu isn't in brawl. He was just a copy of Pikachu and gained damage when he attacked. He was cute, but didn't serve too good of a purpose and is similar to Jigglypuff in a way of defense.

 

[Blaze]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Besides "High Risk, High Return" for Lucario? He can stay on the Wall, and if people are interested in Tiers, the 9th highest. =/

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Are there any other abilites like Lucario's in SSBB? Jigglypuff should have some ability in defense... Not anything like Pokemon abilites, but once you think Jigglypuff is doing great, some wild attack may knock Jigglypuff into the horizon for a KO when Jigglypuff is barely 90, just because of his defense. It's a huge downfall, and Jigglypuff needs a metal cap or some weight-bearing item in order to keep his feet on the ground. I'm glad Pichu isn't in brawl. He was just a copy of Pikachu and gained damage when he attacked. He was cute, but didn't serve too good of a purpose and is similar to Jigglypuff in a way of defense.

Just don't get hit :O

 

[LuckyLuigi7]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

That's about the only thing possible as of right now. Normally, small foes generally have a greater chance of getting KO'd than larger foes according to their size, and usually small foes are weaker than larger ones.

I mean DK vs. Jigglypuff...
You would need great strategy to lead Jigglypuff to victory.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

It's not the hardest match-up if you space well and punish a lot. DK has 2 main disadvantages, he's a large target, which means he's an easy rest target and bair-chains tend to work on him, as well as shield pressuring. And his recovery is bad, which means that when you get him off-stage, you're in the advantage as long as you don't get spiked. Seriously, all you need to do is not get hit by any of his hard-hitting moves, stay in the air, space your attacks well, predict a little, and with a little bit of luck, winning isn't that hard.

Also, Jiggly's aerials are pretty fast, which means she can get out of knock-back pretty fast and avoid the KO at mid-percentages. And with a recovery like that, not being sent through a blast-zone means survival.

 

[LuckyLuigi7]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Good point. I can't think if there is a large foe that has better speed. DK's final jump move isn't very helpful so he can only move vertical with it. Jigglypuff also can gain great heights when he blows up as a balloon and that is surely an advantage. I guess it isn't as hard as I thought. But then, wouldn't that mean Jigglypuff would be a faithful asset?

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Jiggly "blowing up as a balloon" is just her 3th, 4th and 5th jump. Add Pound to that and you have one of the most amazing and versatile recoveries in the game, only rivalled by the likes of ROB and the ever so omnipotent metaknight.

Don't get me wrong, Jiggly's still bad. Lack of ground game (which is replaced with short-hopped aerials), lack of ground speed (but 2nd best air speed in the game, only below Yoshi, who can't abuse it as much), and the brawl engine really make her one of the harder characters to win with consistently. Compared to melee, where Rest was a near-OHKO and where, because of the hitstun, jiggly could carry someone off the edge using bairs without the opponent being able to airdodge out of it, Jiggly has been seriously nerfed.

But, oh well, doesn't mean I don't still main her. She's still the single most awesome character in the game, and using technically unadvanced or easy-to-use characters is pretty boring anyways.

 

[LuckyLuigi7]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Yeah, it would depend on the foe you are playing that would allow Jigglypuff to shine or not. But is there a replacement for her, such as Kirby or whatnot? Kirby still have some ground moves and aerial attacks as well, and his sword attack always seems to come in handy. But who could resist the "B down" move of Jigglypuff (I think you may know what I mean... ) Is there a replacement for Jigglypuff? He is one of a kind to tell you the truth, but there has to be one, considering all of the cons you listed above.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

They're all different characters. While Kirby and MK both have massive air games, they don't really have the speed and movability in the air.

Wario is madness in the air, if anyone would come close to replacing her, it's him. AND he has a ground game and way more weight.

And jigglypuff's rest really isn't what it used to be, even Luigi's Up-B kills sooner than it.

 

[Dark Marc]

RE: The official Super Smash Bros Brawl thread.

Jigglypuff is faster in the air than on the ground. Kirby's jumps are kinda sukish and Metaknights are annoying because he has loads of recoveries up+B but jiggly puff doesn't