XY The Two Legendary Pokémon
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RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
How? We still know next to nothing about Gen6's plot or Xern and Yvel's inspiration. It is just that my instinct that tells me this.Mitja said:
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
That's just one exception. Some legendaries do balance each other out, look at Reshi and Zek. Their fire and electric types are not very effective against each other, but their dragon types are. Same goes for Dialga and Palkia.Mitja said:
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
Reshiram and Zekrom had no choice. They are Dragon because of being actual dragons, and their secondary types are the only two that can represent energetic polar opposites, so they would have been those types regardless of what the type match-ups would end up being.
Dialga hits Palkia SE with Dragon.
Type match-ups are irrelevant. There doesn't need to be any competitive "balance".
CyberCat5555 said:
Reshiram and Zekrom had no choice. They are Dragon because of being actual dragons, and their secondary types are the only two that can represent energetic polar opposites, so they would have been those types regardless of what the type match-ups would end up being.
Dialga hits Palkia SE with Dragon.
Type match-ups are irrelevant. There doesn't need to be any competitive "balance".
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
Also, Palkia hits Dialga SE with dragon as well. I still think that the psychic/electric and dark/flying are good guesses. I think that the balance is an interesting concept. Also, how are the type match-ups still irrelevant? Once again, we still have no info about Xern and Yvel's origins or inspirations.Mitja said:
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
Um, Dialga is part Steel so it's not hit super-effectively by Dragon. And type matchups are irrelevant because I doubt they're going to choose a typing then find an origin that fits it. If their origin dictates typings that don't match up then that's what they're going to be. Also look at Palkia and Dialga's origins. What do their typings have to do with time and space? Steel and Water? And Zekrom and Reshiram's truth and whatever being Electric and Fire? They have nothing to do with each other so the fact you believe that Dark/Flying and Psychic/Electric is so possible because they're great type matchups doesn't really make sense with what's been done in every other game.
CyberCat5555 said:
Um, Dialga is part Steel so it's not hit super-effectively by Dragon. And type matchups are irrelevant because I doubt they're going to choose a typing then find an origin that fits it. If their origin dictates typings that don't match up then that's what they're going to be. Also look at Palkia and Dialga's origins. What do their typings have to do with time and space? Steel and Water? And Zekrom and Reshiram's truth and whatever being Electric and Fire? They have nothing to do with each other so the fact you believe that Dark/Flying and Psychic/Electric is so possible because they're great type matchups doesn't really make sense with what's been done in every other game.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
While type matchups aren't affecting the legendaries much, the idea still exists. Yes, Groudon is weak to Kyogre, but it's impossible to represent land and not be weak to Water in Pokemon. Unless you're Grass, in which case you win. But there's never equality. However, Groudon was given SolarBeam and Drought as a counter to Kyogre.
Concerning Dialga, Palkia and Giratina, the idea behind them is a type combo that no other legendary has. Same goes later on for Reshiram and Zekrom. Seriously, how are truth and ideals associated with Fire and Electricity?
So I believe Yveltal and Xerneas will have some kind of connection between their types. It doesn't have to be equal, it could be something totally imbalanced like Dark/Flying against Grass/Psychic, but there will be a connection.
While type matchups aren't affecting the legendaries much, the idea still exists. Yes, Groudon is weak to Kyogre, but it's impossible to represent land and not be weak to Water in Pokemon. Unless you're Grass, in which case you win. But there's never equality. However, Groudon was given SolarBeam and Drought as a counter to Kyogre.
Concerning Dialga, Palkia and Giratina, the idea behind them is a type combo that no other legendary has. Same goes later on for Reshiram and Zekrom. Seriously, how are truth and ideals associated with Fire and Electricity?
So I believe Yveltal and Xerneas will have some kind of connection between their types. It doesn't have to be equal, it could be something totally imbalanced like Dark/Flying against Grass/Psychic, but there will be a connection.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
That's true, but it would also suggest that GF determined the games' names first and went on with the main legendaries and their typings (also Giratina's primary ghost type has nothing in common with Platinum and concerning 3rd gen: Rubies are found underground, so Groudon as Ruby's mascot makes sense, sapphires are found... underground, too, the same is true for emeralds, so no extra reason for Kyogre/Rayquaza being depicted on the covers - except their colors).
I guess the regular order GF challenges those things is: main legendaries as well as their background and typing first, names of somewhat fitting colors, minerals etc. afterwards.
Be that as it may, I think it was difficult to find any types at all that would have matched such abstract things like time and space.
Gen4 legendaries were way exaggerated in all respects.
Pokequaza said:
That's true, but it would also suggest that GF determined the games' names first and went on with the main legendaries and their typings (also Giratina's primary ghost type has nothing in common with Platinum and concerning 3rd gen: Rubies are found underground, so Groudon as Ruby's mascot makes sense, sapphires are found... underground, too, the same is true for emeralds, so no extra reason for Kyogre/Rayquaza being depicted on the covers - except their colors).
I guess the regular order GF challenges those things is: main legendaries as well as their background and typing first, names of somewhat fitting colors, minerals etc. afterwards.
Be that as it may, I think it was difficult to find any types at all that would have matched such abstract things like time and space.
Gen4 legendaries were way exaggerated in all respects.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
I love the new legendary mascots, but I prefer
the bird one. Just looks cooler. c:
I love the new legendary mascots, but I prefer
the bird one. Just looks cooler. c:
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
Guys.. I think I've got Yveltal's type (for reals).
Fighting/Flying.
This is because, as with most mascots, they have typings unseen before. Yveltal is clearly Flying (or has Levitate).
Fighting is the only type as of Gen.5 that hasn't been paired with Flying.
Obviously Xerneas' type can't be deduced this way since it could be any combo of Psychic, Electric, Water, Grass, Steel or Water.
Guys.. I think I've got Yveltal's type (for reals).
Fighting/Flying.
This is because, as with most mascots, they have typings unseen before. Yveltal is clearly Flying (or has Levitate).
Fighting is the only type as of Gen.5 that hasn't been paired with Flying.
Obviously Xerneas' type can't be deduced this way since it could be any combo of Psychic, Electric, Water, Grass, Steel or Water.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
^ Fighting/Flying is IMO the most likely type combination for Yveltal, too.
I read that some people consider the design of Yveltal/Xerneas might also be associated with some aspects of two out of three differnt types of germ layers: Yveltal would reflect muscle tissue and veins (mesoderm) and Xerneas would reflect neurons (ectoderm).
This theory is really interesting and it would support the conclusion of Yveltal being part Fighting (its wings and tail actually look like muscular arms) and Xerneas being part Psychic.
As for their second types: Yveltal is based on some raptorial bird, so I guess a secondary Flying type would make sense in any case.
In addition, a Dark type seems plausible, too, as "evil" is virtually part of its name yet and it also looks quite fierce.
If it combines Fighting and Dark, it shall at least have Levitate as its ability to express the ability to fly (like Lati@s), though I think a type combination without Flying is unlikely.
Xerneas' possible type cominations are a bit trickier to limit.
When I remember its first appearance in the XY announcement trailer (when its hoof hits the ground and the camera tilts up to show its sharp-edged blade-like leg) I'd probably bet on a Steel type.
Also the metallic gray and blue (you may even speak of steel blue) colors have been used for Steel Pokemon before (think of Metagross, Dialga and Cobalion). However I don't want to reason the type merely from color, as there are more than enough Pokemon whose color don't fit their type at all.
Alternatively one could discuss Xerneas' type based on its origin, a stag, similar to Sawsbuck. Thus you might conclude that Xerneas is part Grass type, even more so when you think of it being shown in a forest in the trailer.
Nevertheless I think the enviroment a Pokemon lives in is not the determining factor for its type.
Whereas an Electric type is highly unlikely IMO. I mean the mere presence of these illuminated parts of its antlers is a rather weak argument for an Electric type. There are not only Ampharos and Chinchou/Lanturn that are capable of generating light but also Volbeat/Illumise, Staryu/Starmie, Elgyem/Beheeyem and Finneon/Lumineon among others. It's not an Electric type exclusive ability.
For now I'd say Fighting/Flying for Yveltal and Psychic/Steel for Xerneas.
^ Fighting/Flying is IMO the most likely type combination for Yveltal, too.
I read that some people consider the design of Yveltal/Xerneas might also be associated with some aspects of two out of three differnt types of germ layers: Yveltal would reflect muscle tissue and veins (mesoderm) and Xerneas would reflect neurons (ectoderm).
This theory is really interesting and it would support the conclusion of Yveltal being part Fighting (its wings and tail actually look like muscular arms) and Xerneas being part Psychic.
As for their second types: Yveltal is based on some raptorial bird, so I guess a secondary Flying type would make sense in any case.
In addition, a Dark type seems plausible, too, as "evil" is virtually part of its name yet and it also looks quite fierce.
If it combines Fighting and Dark, it shall at least have Levitate as its ability to express the ability to fly (like Lati@s), though I think a type combination without Flying is unlikely.
Xerneas' possible type cominations are a bit trickier to limit.
When I remember its first appearance in the XY announcement trailer (when its hoof hits the ground and the camera tilts up to show its sharp-edged blade-like leg) I'd probably bet on a Steel type.
Also the metallic gray and blue (you may even speak of steel blue) colors have been used for Steel Pokemon before (think of Metagross, Dialga and Cobalion). However I don't want to reason the type merely from color, as there are more than enough Pokemon whose color don't fit their type at all.
Alternatively one could discuss Xerneas' type based on its origin, a stag, similar to Sawsbuck. Thus you might conclude that Xerneas is part Grass type, even more so when you think of it being shown in a forest in the trailer.
Nevertheless I think the enviroment a Pokemon lives in is not the determining factor for its type.
Whereas an Electric type is highly unlikely IMO. I mean the mere presence of these illuminated parts of its antlers is a rather weak argument for an Electric type. There are not only Ampharos and Chinchou/Lanturn that are capable of generating light but also Volbeat/Illumise, Staryu/Starmie, Elgyem/Beheeyem and Finneon/Lumineon among others. It's not an Electric type exclusive ability.
For now I'd say Fighting/Flying for Yveltal and Psychic/Steel for Xerneas.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
I have not seen your reply before, perhaps it is a little out dated, but I shall still reply.
It is true that Groudon and Kyogre have nothing in common with actual rubies and sapphires, but Dialga and Palkia are different.
Both Dialga and Palkia have actual diamonds and pearls incorporated in their design, a diamond on the chest of Dialga, and two pearls, each on a shoulder of Palkia. Their names also correspond with their 'gems'. Palkia being derrived from pearl, or more specific パール (pāru), a Japanese spelling for pearl. Dialga's name, as you probably can guess by now, has its roots in ダイヤモンド (daiyamondo), also known as diamond. Therefore it makes these two the only version mascots which actually have their names incorporated in their designs (well, in terms of objects, and not colours).
Giratina, though, has no obvious relation to platinum (other than its name which might be partially derived from platina, the root word for platinum), and there is nothing special about platinum, that might refer to Giratina, that I can think of.
Fennex said:
I have not seen your reply before, perhaps it is a little out dated, but I shall still reply.
It is true that Groudon and Kyogre have nothing in common with actual rubies and sapphires, but Dialga and Palkia are different.
Both Dialga and Palkia have actual diamonds and pearls incorporated in their design, a diamond on the chest of Dialga, and two pearls, each on a shoulder of Palkia. Their names also correspond with their 'gems'. Palkia being derrived from pearl, or more specific パール (pāru), a Japanese spelling for pearl. Dialga's name, as you probably can guess by now, has its roots in ダイヤモンド (daiyamondo), also known as diamond. Therefore it makes these two the only version mascots which actually have their names incorporated in their designs (well, in terms of objects, and not colours).
Giratina, though, has no obvious relation to platinum (other than its name which might be partially derived from platina, the root word for platinum), and there is nothing special about platinum, that might refer to Giratina, that I can think of.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
I would agree on all that. Dialga and Palkia are indeed the only mascots that have their respective version's name emphatically as a part of their design, but I think the initial question was what their Steel or Water type has to do with time/space at all.
I see how you come from diamonds to Steel and from pearls to Water, respectively, but I fail to see any connection between the concept of time/space and Steel/Water or diamonds/pearls at all.
And this leads me to the last sentence of my previous post again: Finding types that match those abstract things might have been rather difficult and to avoid ending up with two plain pure Dragon types as mascots GameFreak probably included diamonds/pearls in their designs. Thus they killed two birds with one stone: They got two names for the different versions and a justification for the Steel or Water type, because seriously "Diamond" and "Pearl" as well as Steel and Water are rather random choices considering the original concept of Dialga and Palkia.
back on topic: I think Yveltal and Xerneas should be more important now than Dialga/Palkia. What do you guys think about Yveltal being Fighting/Flying and Xerneas being Psychic/Steel.
Pokequaza said:
I would agree on all that. Dialga and Palkia are indeed the only mascots that have their respective version's name emphatically as a part of their design, but I think the initial question was what their Steel or Water type has to do with time/space at all.
I see how you come from diamonds to Steel and from pearls to Water, respectively, but I fail to see any connection between the concept of time/space and Steel/Water or diamonds/pearls at all.
And this leads me to the last sentence of my previous post again: Finding types that match those abstract things might have been rather difficult and to avoid ending up with two plain pure Dragon types as mascots GameFreak probably included diamonds/pearls in their designs. Thus they killed two birds with one stone: They got two names for the different versions and a justification for the Steel or Water type, because seriously "Diamond" and "Pearl" as well as Steel and Water are rather random choices considering the original concept of Dialga and Palkia.
back on topic: I think Yveltal and Xerneas should be more important now than Dialga/Palkia. What do you guys think about Yveltal being Fighting/Flying and Xerneas being Psychic/Steel.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
I found PellOfTheTundra's explanation interesting;
Although this is of course no solid evidence, if it even accounts for anything at all. But I agree, the typing of legendary Pokémon have often little in common with their actual, and usually abstract, concept.
Fennex said:
I found PellOfTheTundra's explanation interesting;
Although this is of course no solid evidence, if it even accounts for anything at all. But I agree, the typing of legendary Pokémon have often little in common with their actual, and usually abstract, concept.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
I don't really see Xerneas being a Psychic/Steel, simply due to that typing already existing on several Pokemon. Sure, you could argue "Kingdra was Water/Dragon before Palkia" but that was one Pokemon.
I think it could very well be a Psychic type, but not sure about its secondary type -maybe Electric? Those rainbow antlers look like they could be seen on an Electric type Pokemon.
I don't really see Xerneas being a Psychic/Steel, simply due to that typing already existing on several Pokemon. Sure, you could argue "Kingdra was Water/Dragon before Palkia" but that was one Pokemon.
I think it could very well be a Psychic type, but not sure about its secondary type -maybe Electric? Those rainbow antlers look like they could be seen on an Electric type Pokemon.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
If I wanted to be pedantic I would say there wasn't a well and truly Psychic/Steel Pokemon yet, as Beldum/Metang/Metagross, Jirachi and Bronzor/Bronzong all are Steel/Psychic, though that doesn't matter relating to game mechanics.
I think giving the version mascots a unique type is a nice gimmick, no more, no less.
Ho-oh/Lugia/(Suicune)/Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza/Palkia had to deal with the fact they don't had a unique type (combination) at the time they were released, and IMO that doesn't negate their special legendary status, though a completely new type combo is undoubtedly a nice cherry-on-top.
However, concerning the increasing number of Pokemon, it is inevitable that some type combinations recur, even in legendaries. Otherwise GameFreak would end up like "Oh, we don't have Fighting/Dragon and Bug/Psychic Pokemon yet, so let's make these two our new version's mascots!"
I'm skeptical towards Xerneas being part Electric type. There are so many Psychics, Bugs or even Water type Pokemon that are able to generate light without the need of electricity, I don't see making use of the Electric type just to show off Xerneas' illuminated antlers.
If I wanted to be pedantic I would say there wasn't a well and truly Psychic/Steel Pokemon yet, as Beldum/Metang/Metagross, Jirachi and Bronzor/Bronzong all are Steel/Psychic, though that doesn't matter relating to game mechanics.
I think giving the version mascots a unique type is a nice gimmick, no more, no less.
Ho-oh/Lugia/(Suicune)/Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza/Palkia had to deal with the fact they don't had a unique type (combination) at the time they were released, and IMO that doesn't negate their special legendary status, though a completely new type combo is undoubtedly a nice cherry-on-top.
However, concerning the increasing number of Pokemon, it is inevitable that some type combinations recur, even in legendaries. Otherwise GameFreak would end up like "Oh, we don't have Fighting/Dragon and Bug/Psychic Pokemon yet, so let's make these two our new version's mascots!"
I'm skeptical towards Xerneas being part Electric type. There are so many Psychics, Bugs or even Water type Pokemon that are able to generate light without the need of electricity, I don't see making use of the Electric type just to show off Xerneas' illuminated antlers.
RE: The Two Legendary Pokemon
Ive seen most people suggesting exotic dual types (especially Xerneas), but looking at the past generations, you all might be hastier than I think of gamefreak.
As far as mascot types go, gamefreak have generally kept it simple rather than complex.
GS
Psy - Flying
Fire - Flying
(you could say, they went for a psy and a fire mascot, the two awesome offensive types.. they added Flying because of common sense more than anything)
RSE
Ground
Water
Dragon - Flying
(thematic duo there, nice and simple land vs sea. Their gaurdian? the third awesome offensive type. Again, the Flying part is there because it makes sense, not necessarily because they absolutely wanted a dual type in the group)
DPT
Steel - Dragon
Water - Dragon
Ghost - Dragon
(This gen was over-the-top epic in everything, and accordingly the mascots aren't just their elemental type, they're freakin badass Dragon on top for the sake of it.)
BW
Dragon - Fire
Dragon - Electric
Dragon - Ice
(Here we got ACTUAL dragons...and if you gonna have dragons in the story, they oughta be properly Dragon-typed. With an elemental type to distinguish them as usual)
See what I'm getting at?
Every dual-type mascot was dual type either because they were airborne (Flying) or because they are freakin Dragons.
If it wasn't for those "self-explanatory types", every mascot would have been single-typed. Said differently, every single mascot, has ONE "colorful" type which it represents, the type which distinguishes it from its brothers.
And with plenty of types still not being represented by a mascot (like Grass??), I think gamefreak would not jump on the exotic dual type mascot train just yet.
Soooo, lets take the common guess for Yveltal here, it looks sneaky, vulture-like, life-sucking, menacing... so THE type it represents could easily be:
-Dark
(then, just as with Lugia/Ho-oh/Rayquaza, Flying is the common sense addition, resulting in a seen-before Dark/Flying combination)
Now, just because simple logic turned Yveltal from representing Dark to being a dual type... doesn't mean we should go ahead and assume Xerneas would be a dual type too.
It might feel unfair at first, but it would be similarly unfair to give Xerneas a badass extra type like Steel or Electric, as Yveltal did not really have a choice, it merely flies, by design!
If Xerneas was an insect or a dragon or airborne too, thered be no doubt of it being that type along with its distinguishing type. But it is not.
And that's why I place my bets on a SINGLE type for Xerneas for now. Whether that means Grass, or Psychic, or something completely unexpected. But I sincerely doubt it would be dual type, unless Yveltals second type was something fancy too instead of Flying (like the Fight/Dark combo suggested by others), but I don't see them pulling a "Flygon" in this case.. (Flygon and not the Latis, because they had a "psychic" explanation for Levitate, they actually levitate, with the wings being more for aerodynamic purposes than flight-enabling.)
Ive seen most people suggesting exotic dual types (especially Xerneas), but looking at the past generations, you all might be hastier than I think of gamefreak.
As far as mascot types go, gamefreak have generally kept it simple rather than complex.
GS
Psy - Flying
Fire - Flying
(you could say, they went for a psy and a fire mascot, the two awesome offensive types.. they added Flying because of common sense more than anything)
RSE
Ground
Water
Dragon - Flying
(thematic duo there, nice and simple land vs sea. Their gaurdian? the third awesome offensive type. Again, the Flying part is there because it makes sense, not necessarily because they absolutely wanted a dual type in the group)
DPT
Steel - Dragon
Water - Dragon
Ghost - Dragon
(This gen was over-the-top epic in everything, and accordingly the mascots aren't just their elemental type, they're freakin badass Dragon on top for the sake of it.)
BW
Dragon - Fire
Dragon - Electric
Dragon - Ice
(Here we got ACTUAL dragons...and if you gonna have dragons in the story, they oughta be properly Dragon-typed. With an elemental type to distinguish them as usual)
See what I'm getting at?
Every dual-type mascot was dual type either because they were airborne (Flying) or because they are freakin Dragons.
If it wasn't for those "self-explanatory types", every mascot would have been single-typed. Said differently, every single mascot, has ONE "colorful" type which it represents, the type which distinguishes it from its brothers.
And with plenty of types still not being represented by a mascot (like Grass??), I think gamefreak would not jump on the exotic dual type mascot train just yet.
Soooo, lets take the common guess for Yveltal here, it looks sneaky, vulture-like, life-sucking, menacing... so THE type it represents could easily be:
-Dark
(then, just as with Lugia/Ho-oh/Rayquaza, Flying is the common sense addition, resulting in a seen-before Dark/Flying combination)
Now, just because simple logic turned Yveltal from representing Dark to being a dual type... doesn't mean we should go ahead and assume Xerneas would be a dual type too.
It might feel unfair at first, but it would be similarly unfair to give Xerneas a badass extra type like Steel or Electric, as Yveltal did not really have a choice, it merely flies, by design!
If Xerneas was an insect or a dragon or airborne too, thered be no doubt of it being that type along with its distinguishing type. But it is not.
And that's why I place my bets on a SINGLE type for Xerneas for now. Whether that means Grass, or Psychic, or something completely unexpected. But I sincerely doubt it would be dual type, unless Yveltals second type was something fancy too instead of Flying (like the Fight/Dark combo suggested by others), but I don't see them pulling a "Flygon" in this case.. (Flygon and not the Latis, because they had a "psychic" explanation for Levitate, they actually levitate, with the wings being more for aerodynamic purposes than flight-enabling.)