Cardfight!! Vaguard Group Discussion
- Thread starter Scorched Feathers
- Start date
Is it just me or does Cardfight!! Vanguard have the exact same pull rates and ratios as Yu-Gi-Oh! does? It's even more expensive to buy singles online although people say it's pretty cheap. How many Null/Perfect Guards are garaunteed per box? I thought this game wasn't going to be that expensive to invest in, Pokemon and Magic seem alot cheaper in comparison. Is there OP yet for Vanguard?
After some experience playing Vanguard it doesn't have much in the way for original combos and Rogue decks since almost every deck built is identical to one another so it seems like everyone who runs money cards netdecks eachother. It also doesn't leave alot of room for deck creativity either except for in the management of specific Triggers you run which can turn the tide of the game in your favor.
You can mix and mash Clans except that it hurts your deck consistency in terms of applying Triggers to specific Units. I've seen at least one Rogue Deck built for Vanguard like the CEO Vortimer Build that runs CEO Amaterasu over Spectral Duke Dragon that focuses on Amaterasu while defending with your Triggers with no Halo Shield, Mark whatsoever. The deck itself is pretty expensive to build cause 3 CEO Amaterasu's are probably around $20-30 a piece since they're Triple Rares.
After some experience playing Vanguard it doesn't have much in the way for original combos and Rogue decks since almost every deck built is identical to one another so it seems like everyone who runs money cards netdecks eachother. It also doesn't leave alot of room for deck creativity either except for in the management of specific Triggers you run which can turn the tide of the game in your favor.
You can mix and mash Clans except that it hurts your deck consistency in terms of applying Triggers to specific Units. I've seen at least one Rogue Deck built for Vanguard like the CEO Vortimer Build that runs CEO Amaterasu over Spectral Duke Dragon that focuses on Amaterasu while defending with your Triggers with no Halo Shield, Mark whatsoever. The deck itself is pretty expensive to build cause 3 CEO Amaterasu's are probably around $20-30 a piece since they're Triple Rares.
Card Slinger J said:
Perfect Guards are like Shiny Rayquaza, One every 3 Boxes.
I know right? So far I've only pulled 1 Halo Shield, Mark each out of 3 seperate boxes of Breaker of Limits (managed to get a playset eventually), bought some packs and pulled a Blond Ezel, then a Viviane, and bought a whole box which I got stuff I didn't need, bought a Blond Ezel from a friend of mine, pulled just Granblue stuff and no Angel Feathers which I'm trying to build for a friend of mine trying to get into Vanguard.
If anything the Trial Decks help you get into the TCG alot easier than buying a box for a different Clan that you will probably have difficulty assembling together for. One thing I love about Vanguard is that the card pool makes every card useful depending on what Clan(s) you're running. It helps but If you're trying to break into the TCG competitively you need to run 4 Perfect Guards for your deck to be good and that's like needing 4 Pokemon Catcher's in every deck for the Pokemon TCG. Yes most Perfect Guards you can buy for $10 a piece Online but it'd be better If it was $5 a piece instead.
If anything the Trial Decks help you get into the TCG alot easier than buying a box for a different Clan that you will probably have difficulty assembling together for. One thing I love about Vanguard is that the card pool makes every card useful depending on what Clan(s) you're running. It helps but If you're trying to break into the TCG competitively you need to run 4 Perfect Guards for your deck to be good and that's like needing 4 Pokemon Catcher's in every deck for the Pokemon TCG. Yes most Perfect Guards you can buy for $10 a piece Online but it'd be better If it was $5 a piece instead.
Here's the link I found for the deck on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmapI52hG0o
Decklist is in the Description Box under the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmapI52hG0o
Decklist is in the Description Box under the video.
It's not out til next weekend, plus there's not really much out of that set I'm interested in since I don't plan on building a 2nd Vanguard deck unless I know the game will take off. It seems like some people in my area are interested in Kaijudo so I'm gonna build a deck for that game just incase If it takes off as well.
Kaijudo is from WotC. There is a reason why WotC only has one card game. It's not gonna take off lol.
Riskbreakers said:
I dunno, I saw 40 people at my card shop playing again because it was a revival of duel masters.
Edit: Anyone know when the next vanguard set comes out?
Project_Fedora said:
No one even knows of that card game here in my country.
August 11
Well to be honest Kaijudo is alot cheaper than Vanguard, a competitive deck in Kaijudo would cost you about $30-40+ even though Base Set doesn't come out til next month as it just has the Dojo Edition Packs and 2 Player Starter Decks. A competitive deck in Vanguard would cost about $200+ which for people who've heavily invested in TCG's like Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh!, or Pokemon competitively will have difficulty branching out towards.
Unlike Vanguard, Wizards of the Coast announced that there will be "League Play" for Kaijudo similiar to what the Pokemon TCG has to help newer players into the game and get rewards as well. Kaijudo might also have a better Tournament Structure than Vanguard, last I checked Bushiroad doesn't allow Swiss Style Rounds in most of their Sanctioned Tournaments for Vanguard, just Best of 1 Double Elimination which is a huge letdown for me.
Some of the Vanguard players I talked to on Pojo don't like Swiss because they think playing all your Rounds like in Pokemon is pointless just to improve a Seasonal Record. They were like well If you lose in 2 of your rounds at least you get to play in Side Events, but this was just in one of the Events that Bushiroad was hosting. At the Anaheim Event for Vanguard, Bushiroad had a player turnout of over 400 people and here's a pic to prove it:
A Spike Brothers Deck also went 6-0 at the Event as well:
4 General Seifried
4 Juggernaut Maximum
2 Sky Diver
2 Jelly Beans
4 Panzer Gale
3 Devil Summoner
2 Dudley Douglas
4 Wonder Boy
4 Cheer Girl Marilyn
2 Medical Manager
Let's see a Kaijudo Event top that next month, I'd love to see it. I wouldn't doubt it since alot of people are getting out of Yu-Gi-Oh! for other TCG's and for those that haven't played Duel Masters in years this is their chance. You also have to remember that Duel Masters is the #1 Best Selling TCG in Japan right now even dethroning Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh! with over 40 expansions and counting although Pokemon TCG is like #2 or #3 over there of course. Cardfight!! Vanguard was released in Japan and Singapore just last year as it recently made it's way internationally to the U.S. and other countries as well.
For those that don't know about the rule changes for Kaijudo compared to Duel Masters, you can only run 3 copies of one card per deck and when you play a card in hand that shares a Civilization with a card in your Mana Zone you can cast it with other cards of different Civilizations without tapping the matching card for mana to cast the card you're playing. Deck Size Limit is 40, I believe you can run more than 40 cards per deck where as in Vanguard your deck has to be exactly 50 cards with 16 Triggers. Most Kaijudo players run a deck of 40 cards cause you have a better chance of drawing into what you need alot easier.
I like how there's more deck creativity and better ways to make a Rogue Deck in Kaijudo than in Vanguard, with Vanguard a Rogue deck is essentially a Mixed Clan Deck which most of the time will be inconsistent anyway considering that the game doesn't work like how you can team up cards of different affiliations like in Marvel/DC Vs. System. That way it'd be much easier to apply Trigger Boosts to Units that don't share the same Clan with eachother by "teaming up" those Clans, although you can boost a Unit that doesn't share the same Clan as the other though. Sure Kaijudo's card pool is very limited right now, but give it time as well as with Vanguard and you'll see the difference especially in how much you pay to build the decks of each TCG as well.
Unlike Vanguard, Wizards of the Coast announced that there will be "League Play" for Kaijudo similiar to what the Pokemon TCG has to help newer players into the game and get rewards as well. Kaijudo might also have a better Tournament Structure than Vanguard, last I checked Bushiroad doesn't allow Swiss Style Rounds in most of their Sanctioned Tournaments for Vanguard, just Best of 1 Double Elimination which is a huge letdown for me.
Some of the Vanguard players I talked to on Pojo don't like Swiss because they think playing all your Rounds like in Pokemon is pointless just to improve a Seasonal Record. They were like well If you lose in 2 of your rounds at least you get to play in Side Events, but this was just in one of the Events that Bushiroad was hosting. At the Anaheim Event for Vanguard, Bushiroad had a player turnout of over 400 people and here's a pic to prove it:
A Spike Brothers Deck also went 6-0 at the Event as well:
4 General Seifried
4 Juggernaut Maximum
2 Sky Diver
2 Jelly Beans
4 Panzer Gale
3 Devil Summoner
2 Dudley Douglas
4 Wonder Boy
4 Cheer Girl Marilyn
2 Medical Manager
Let's see a Kaijudo Event top that next month, I'd love to see it. I wouldn't doubt it since alot of people are getting out of Yu-Gi-Oh! for other TCG's and for those that haven't played Duel Masters in years this is their chance. You also have to remember that Duel Masters is the #1 Best Selling TCG in Japan right now even dethroning Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh! with over 40 expansions and counting although Pokemon TCG is like #2 or #3 over there of course. Cardfight!! Vanguard was released in Japan and Singapore just last year as it recently made it's way internationally to the U.S. and other countries as well.
For those that don't know about the rule changes for Kaijudo compared to Duel Masters, you can only run 3 copies of one card per deck and when you play a card in hand that shares a Civilization with a card in your Mana Zone you can cast it with other cards of different Civilizations without tapping the matching card for mana to cast the card you're playing. Deck Size Limit is 40, I believe you can run more than 40 cards per deck where as in Vanguard your deck has to be exactly 50 cards with 16 Triggers. Most Kaijudo players run a deck of 40 cards cause you have a better chance of drawing into what you need alot easier.
I like how there's more deck creativity and better ways to make a Rogue Deck in Kaijudo than in Vanguard, with Vanguard a Rogue deck is essentially a Mixed Clan Deck which most of the time will be inconsistent anyway considering that the game doesn't work like how you can team up cards of different affiliations like in Marvel/DC Vs. System. That way it'd be much easier to apply Trigger Boosts to Units that don't share the same Clan with eachother by "teaming up" those Clans, although you can boost a Unit that doesn't share the same Clan as the other though. Sure Kaijudo's card pool is very limited right now, but give it time as well as with Vanguard and you'll see the difference especially in how much you pay to build the decks of each TCG as well.
I know that in my area Vanguard is becoming insanely popular insanely quickly. It's gotten to the point that we have an issue of too many people playing Vanguard during pokemon league time. As for Kaijudo, I've seen some merchandise but never even heard of anyone playing it. I agree that Vanguard is indeed going far, and I can't say the same for Kaijudo right now.
Yeah but Vanguard's Tournament Structure the way Bushiroad has set it up right now is just bullcrap. Who really wants to play in Tournaments that are Best of 1 Double Elimination? You lose 2 rounds and you're kicked out of the Tournament completely especially with no Top Cut. How is that fair for players trying to improve? This is why Vanguard needs Best 2 out of 3 Swiss style Rounds with a Top Cut that are Sanctioned by Bushiroad. Every player should deserve an opportunity to win their match with more percentage of skill rather than rolling a die or flipping a coin.
How would you feel If you went to a Regional Qualifier for Vanguard and lose because you had a horrible redraw or you lost to a Double Crit because you only took 3 damage and took their 1st Grade 3 Vanguard Attack. As soon as Bushiroad introduces prize support and high level competition, they need to re-analyze these types of tournament proceedings.
Ask yourself this, would you travel down to California after qualifying for Nationals, just to lose because of a coin flip, when you have a $1,000+ plane ticket on the line? Of course not. But at least what Wizards of the Coast is getting at with Kaijudo is that they are actually encouraging people to play their new TCG with the League they've setup for and from the looks of things seems like they might have a better tournament structure for Kaijudo than what Bushiroad has laid out for Vanguard. If Bushiroad knows how TCG Tournament Structure works they should look at what used to be a good example of it and that's the Pokemon TCG.
How would you feel If you went to a Regional Qualifier for Vanguard and lose because you had a horrible redraw or you lost to a Double Crit because you only took 3 damage and took their 1st Grade 3 Vanguard Attack. As soon as Bushiroad introduces prize support and high level competition, they need to re-analyze these types of tournament proceedings.
Ask yourself this, would you travel down to California after qualifying for Nationals, just to lose because of a coin flip, when you have a $1,000+ plane ticket on the line? Of course not. But at least what Wizards of the Coast is getting at with Kaijudo is that they are actually encouraging people to play their new TCG with the League they've setup for and from the looks of things seems like they might have a better tournament structure for Kaijudo than what Bushiroad has laid out for Vanguard. If Bushiroad knows how TCG Tournament Structure works they should look at what used to be a good example of it and that's the Pokemon TCG.
Well first of all I live in California so I don't care about the plane ticket money. 
In all seriousness though, I don't think the game is ever decided by a coin flip or a die roll, whereas pokemon often is. As for triggers, well, every time you say "no guard" you know full well the risk you're taking. If they double crit you, that's unfortunate, and you should have guarded. As for bad hands and whatnot, deckbuilding is a huge factor in Vanguard. If you don't have enough defensive power, or you never draw into a certain grade, then the problem is likely in your decklist.
In all seriousness though, I don't think the game is ever decided by a coin flip or a die roll, whereas pokemon often is. As for triggers, well, every time you say "no guard" you know full well the risk you're taking. If they double crit you, that's unfortunate, and you should have guarded. As for bad hands and whatnot, deckbuilding is a huge factor in Vanguard. If you don't have enough defensive power, or you never draw into a certain grade, then the problem is likely in your decklist.
Card Slinger J said:
If you lose two rounds in swiss, you most likely do not deserve to win the whole thing anyway. Even if I don't like the current system, just suck it up and deal with it. Pokemon was a mess when it first started. So was YGO.
You're also starting to sound like Vanguard_Veteran from Pojo and my god is he annoying.
Also, I have won games even when I got grade screwed for a turn or two. I have also beat some people using a deck of Mr. Invincible and Hell Spider.
Yeah even still Tournament Organizers for Vanguard should be able to decide between Swiss and Elimination for the Sanctioned Events they hold but it's already obvious that they can do that anyway. Maybe I was a bit too optimistic about Kaijudo but at least I'm giving it a chance to see If it's a better TCG worth investing than Vanguard.
Judging from my area it seems Vanguard is worth the investment, only time will tell. Sure there's things I don't like about it like getting Grade locked, having to rely on a Heal Trigger at 5 damage, or having difficulty guarding against certain units namely Spectral Duke Dragon, but aside from that I've had matchups that I've won against which I've enjoyed.
Judging from my area it seems Vanguard is worth the investment, only time will tell. Sure there's things I don't like about it like getting Grade locked, having to rely on a Heal Trigger at 5 damage, or having difficulty guarding against certain units namely Spectral Duke Dragon, but aside from that I've had matchups that I've won against which I've enjoyed.
Well we've had 40 people and 30 people turn up for shop tourneys. Pretty good so far. SDD isn't too difficult IMO, GarmoreEzel is till more threatening. I think Sanctioned Events that aren't qualifiers, TOs can adjust formats.
I'm upgrading my GP when BT07 is released next month on September 29th anyway, so hopefully by then it will have an easier time going up against SDD. The thing about it is not much so the board presence but how it can be hard to Guard against, almost akin to DKV in Narukami except DKV doesn't Stand itself after being Rested like SDD does from it's LB Ability.
Using Garmore/Viviane/Ezel to get Lop Ear Shooter to get another GP out to RG seems solid, although Archer of Dancing Light, Griflet is only good as the Vanguard because it can Stand ANY of your RG's for a 2 card Counterblast as If it's in the RG it can only Stand a Grade 1 or less unit which GP doesn't have very many solid one's aside from Sleygal Dagger and Halo Shield, Mark which is only good for guarding. Pellinore seems a bit situational to use over either Ezel or Garmore... :/
Using Garmore/Viviane/Ezel to get Lop Ear Shooter to get another GP out to RG seems solid, although Archer of Dancing Light, Griflet is only good as the Vanguard because it can Stand ANY of your RG's for a 2 card Counterblast as If it's in the RG it can only Stand a Grade 1 or less unit which GP doesn't have very many solid one's aside from Sleygal Dagger and Halo Shield, Mark which is only good for guarding. Pellinore seems a bit situational to use over either Ezel or Garmore... :/
I heard 2 shops are carrying Kaijudo in Florida, but all of them have vanguard. My small card shop has 20-30 players a week and the other one I know of has around 30-40.