Future Metagame Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Vulpix Yolk
- Start date
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
1.
Garbodor- I don't think people understand how this is such an amazing card. It wins against Darkrai/Hydreigon, since they don't run switch and you just Catcher up their Hydreigon, It shuts down Eels and Ninetails/Amoonguss. It hurst Garchomp immensly. Klingklang gets put in check. It shuts down all draw, acceleration, and lock outside of attacks and trainers.
Garchomp- Such a broken card IMO. It is extremely fast, even without Gabite, but Gabite makes its consistency amazing.
It shoots out lots of damage and for low energy costs, which makes it great.
Hydreigon- If there was any way to make Darkrai better, this was the way. It allows Dakrais to be killing longer and longer and shooting 140 is nothing to laugh at.
Tool Scrapper- A game changing card right here. Normally, nuisances like Eviolite and the Scarf/Cloaks would be a problem, but not only does this make the Garbodor matchup much easier, it can help with Kos and disruption. For example, Eviolite, EXP Share and the New items can't be returned after they are scrapped (other than with Sableye). You can now KO an Eviolited Darkrai witha Terrakion w/o a Pluspower. Yay. Not only that but if you get a pokemon with Rescue Scarf down to 10-20 HP, Scrapper them and they get Kod with out attacking.
(These aren't in any order by the way)
Terrakion EX- I don't love this card, but it is amazing and opens a world of possiblites, such as Six Corners, Terrakion Mewtwo, or even just regular Straight Terrakion. It boost consistency and now You don't have to (fully) rely on EXP share anymore, like you had to before. 50 for 2 is not bad either, seeing that it OHKOs Eels and other weak pokemon.
2.
Rayquaza EX is overhyped. It can't work w/o Eels, and loses. It is good, but not amazing. Ho-oh EX is overhyped as well IMO. It is very energy based. It is an interesting attacker, but I don't think its as good as its cracked up to be. It would be amazing with Shaymin UL, but thats getting rotated. Mew EX is very overhyped. It has terrible Weakness, HP, and the only thing it has is its retreat and its ability. The ability helps consistency a little, but you still have to set up the pokemon you want to attack with, and with Raikou EX sniping and trainer lock banished, I don't see it being amazing.
3. No clue. I just hope the AbiliBite isn't cut.....teh horrors that would bring :[=
1.
Garbodor- I don't think people understand how this is such an amazing card. It wins against Darkrai/Hydreigon, since they don't run switch and you just Catcher up their Hydreigon, It shuts down Eels and Ninetails/Amoonguss. It hurst Garchomp immensly. Klingklang gets put in check. It shuts down all draw, acceleration, and lock outside of attacks and trainers.
Garchomp- Such a broken card IMO. It is extremely fast, even without Gabite, but Gabite makes its consistency amazing.
It shoots out lots of damage and for low energy costs, which makes it great.
Hydreigon- If there was any way to make Darkrai better, this was the way. It allows Dakrais to be killing longer and longer and shooting 140 is nothing to laugh at.
Tool Scrapper- A game changing card right here. Normally, nuisances like Eviolite and the Scarf/Cloaks would be a problem, but not only does this make the Garbodor matchup much easier, it can help with Kos and disruption. For example, Eviolite, EXP Share and the New items can't be returned after they are scrapped (other than with Sableye). You can now KO an Eviolited Darkrai witha Terrakion w/o a Pluspower. Yay. Not only that but if you get a pokemon with Rescue Scarf down to 10-20 HP, Scrapper them and they get Kod with out attacking.
(These aren't in any order by the way)
Terrakion EX- I don't love this card, but it is amazing and opens a world of possiblites, such as Six Corners, Terrakion Mewtwo, or even just regular Straight Terrakion. It boost consistency and now You don't have to (fully) rely on EXP share anymore, like you had to before. 50 for 2 is not bad either, seeing that it OHKOs Eels and other weak pokemon.
2.
Rayquaza EX is overhyped. It can't work w/o Eels, and loses. It is good, but not amazing. Ho-oh EX is overhyped as well IMO. It is very energy based. It is an interesting attacker, but I don't think its as good as its cracked up to be. It would be amazing with Shaymin UL, but thats getting rotated. Mew EX is very overhyped. It has terrible Weakness, HP, and the only thing it has is its retreat and its ability. The ability helps consistency a little, but you still have to set up the pokemon you want to attack with, and with Raikou EX sniping and trainer lock banished, I don't see it being amazing.
3. No clue. I just hope the AbiliBite isn't cut.....teh horrors that would bring :[=
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
I'm just coming back into the game and I only understand 3 of the hyped decks.
can someone explain 6 corners?
I'm just coming back into the game and I only understand 3 of the hyped decks.
can someone explain 6 corners?
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
6 corners is a deck that uses a combination or:
Terrakion
Virizion
Kyurem
Reshiram
Zekrom
and Previously Shaymin
The deck is meant to counter the meta and hit for weakness.
6 corners is a deck that uses a combination or:
Terrakion
Virizion
Kyurem
Reshiram
Zekrom
and Previously Shaymin
The deck is meant to counter the meta and hit for weakness.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
ah okay, so I'm guessing without shaymin it's not going to be as good without the energy accel?
iisnumber12 said:
ah okay, so I'm guessing without shaymin it's not going to be as good without the energy accel?
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
Exp. Share helps it a ton, but it will lose a bunch without Shaymin.
Exp. Share helps it a ton, but it will lose a bunch without Shaymin.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
6 Corners has basically evolved into Terrakion/Mewtwo. The version iisnumber12 listed was a primitive one built for the more diverse Cities meta. The idea behind deck is to hit all the popular weaknesses, so it evolves as the format changes.
6 Corners has basically evolved into Terrakion/Mewtwo. The version iisnumber12 listed was a primitive one built for the more diverse Cities meta. The idea behind deck is to hit all the popular weaknesses, so it evolves as the format changes.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
I don't think it's completely fair to say that the deck evolved into a completely different archetype. You said it yourself that the deck hits for the popular weaknesses, and Terrakion and Mewtwo do contribute to that, but I would say another extremely popular weakness is Dragon and the deck has no way to hit that for x2.
Personally, my opinion is that the Six Corners deck has lost quite a bit after the rotation. That's not even considering that the deck was practically dead after Cities. I don't see the deck being viable with the multiple types of attackers (with Virizion as the main set up Pokemon) in BW-on.
dmaster out.
Celebi23 said:
I don't think it's completely fair to say that the deck evolved into a completely different archetype. You said it yourself that the deck hits for the popular weaknesses, and Terrakion and Mewtwo do contribute to that, but I would say another extremely popular weakness is Dragon and the deck has no way to hit that for x2.
Personally, my opinion is that the Six Corners deck has lost quite a bit after the rotation. That's not even considering that the deck was practically dead after Cities. I don't see the deck being viable with the multiple types of attackers (with Virizion as the main set up Pokemon) in BW-on.
dmaster out.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
The only reason it doesn't use a Dragon attacker is because there isn't a good basic one that works without acceleration. The deck would run a dragon attacker if there was something like a dragon-type Terrakion. No question about that. It's playing with the types it can counter.
They use the same strategy. Sure, you can call one 6 Corners and one Terrakion/Mewtwo since they use different cards, but they both use the Haymaker strategy that's been around since day one.
The only reason it doesn't use a Dragon attacker is because there isn't a good basic one that works without acceleration. The deck would run a dragon attacker if there was something like a dragon-type Terrakion. No question about that. It's playing with the types it can counter.
They use the same strategy. Sure, you can call one 6 Corners and one Terrakion/Mewtwo since they use different cards, but they both use the Haymaker strategy that's been around since day one.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
Really, almost any fast deck that uses basics that could be called Haymaker, so I don't see the reason to mix archetypes around together and call things the same when they use completely different attackers, playstyles, and maybe even types in most cases.
dmaster out.
Really, almost any fast deck that uses basics that could be called Haymaker, so I don't see the reason to mix archetypes around together and call things the same when they use completely different attackers, playstyles, and maybe even types in most cases.
dmaster out.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
Man everytime Dmaster posts he OHKO's the thread.
anyways out of testing from B/W on N will probably be the best supporter in the format next to juniper, it's the only shuffle draw we'll have and it can totally turn a game around in your favor like twins did.
dmaster said:
Man everytime Dmaster posts he OHKO's the thread.
anyways out of testing from B/W on N will probably be the best supporter in the format next to juniper, it's the only shuffle draw we'll have and it can totally turn a game around in your favor like twins did.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
I don't think you're understanding my point that both Terrakion-EX/Mewtwo-EX and Virizion/Terrakion/Bouffalant/Cobalion/Dragons use the exact same strategy. They hit the popular types for Weakness. If Kyurem and Kyurem-EX were the biggest cards around, you can bet Terrakion-EX/Mewtwo-EX would sure as heck be running Cobalion. Terrakion and Mewtwo-EX are the attackers that are used because they are the ones that hit popular cards for Weakness for 1-2 Energy. If there was any point in running other types, the deck would certainly be running them. It's not running Dragon solely because there is not a good Dragon attacker for it to use.
If you really don't believe me, play some games with a 6 Corners deck. The first thing you'll notice is that you're losing to Mewtwo-EX. So you'll add some Mewtwo-EX. Soon after, you'll realize that all the dragons and Cobalion are useless because they simply aren't hitting for Weakness and that's the idea behind the deck. So once you drop all them, you'll be left with Virizion/Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX. Now, Virizion's role has always been as the fastest attacker in the deck, but Mewtwo can replace that role. He's never hit anything for Weakness, so you may end up dropping him for the newly released Terrakion-EX and some extra Fighting to hold Energy in play better. Or you could leave it as Virizion/Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX, which is actually a great deck as well; it's one I'm giving serious consideration to playing.
The Pokémon in each deck are clearly different, but the concept behind the deck is exactly the same. If the strategy of Terrakion/Mewtwo isn't to hit popular Weaknesses, then what is its strategy?!
When do you draw the line between 6 Corners and whatever this new not-6-Corners deck is? Is it when the deck became Terrakion/Bouffalant/Zekrom/Virizion/Absol/Victini after people realized Reshiram and Zekrom weren't doing anything and Durant and Chandelure got popular? Is it when the deck became Terrakion/Zekrom/Mewtwo-EX? Is it when the deck became mono-Terrakion? Is it when it became Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX? Is it when it became Terrakion/Terrakion-EX/Mewtwo-EX? Does the inclusion of each individual card make it a separate deck? Is Terrakion/Bouffalant/Zekrom/Absol/Victini a different deck archetype than Terrakion/Bouffalant/Virizion/Zekrom/Absol/Victini in your eyes? At what point do you draw the line between 6 Corners and Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX or whatever you want to call it?
The deck clearly evolved as the format changed. People stopped playing Absol and Victini in the deck because Durant and Chandelure lost steam with the new format, not because they came up with a totally different deck! People added Mewtwo-EX to their Terrakion decks because they wanted to hit other Mewtwo for Weakness, not because they wanted to play a completely different deck!
And how about other decks? A year ago, would you have considered Yanmega/Kingdra a different archetype than Yanmega/Kingdra/Zoroark? How about Typhlosion/Reshiram and Typhlosion/Reshiram/Ninetales? Yanmega/Magnezone and Yanmega/Magnezone/Kingdra? Where do you draw the line? At which point are they different archetypes rather than different variations of the same archetype?
The strategy behind the original Haymaker was also to hit popular types for Weakness - namely Water with Electabuzz.dmaster said:
I don't think you're understanding my point that both Terrakion-EX/Mewtwo-EX and Virizion/Terrakion/Bouffalant/Cobalion/Dragons use the exact same strategy. They hit the popular types for Weakness. If Kyurem and Kyurem-EX were the biggest cards around, you can bet Terrakion-EX/Mewtwo-EX would sure as heck be running Cobalion. Terrakion and Mewtwo-EX are the attackers that are used because they are the ones that hit popular cards for Weakness for 1-2 Energy. If there was any point in running other types, the deck would certainly be running them. It's not running Dragon solely because there is not a good Dragon attacker for it to use.
If you really don't believe me, play some games with a 6 Corners deck. The first thing you'll notice is that you're losing to Mewtwo-EX. So you'll add some Mewtwo-EX. Soon after, you'll realize that all the dragons and Cobalion are useless because they simply aren't hitting for Weakness and that's the idea behind the deck. So once you drop all them, you'll be left with Virizion/Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX. Now, Virizion's role has always been as the fastest attacker in the deck, but Mewtwo can replace that role. He's never hit anything for Weakness, so you may end up dropping him for the newly released Terrakion-EX and some extra Fighting to hold Energy in play better. Or you could leave it as Virizion/Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX, which is actually a great deck as well; it's one I'm giving serious consideration to playing.
The Pokémon in each deck are clearly different, but the concept behind the deck is exactly the same. If the strategy of Terrakion/Mewtwo isn't to hit popular Weaknesses, then what is its strategy?!
When do you draw the line between 6 Corners and whatever this new not-6-Corners deck is? Is it when the deck became Terrakion/Bouffalant/Zekrom/Virizion/Absol/Victini after people realized Reshiram and Zekrom weren't doing anything and Durant and Chandelure got popular? Is it when the deck became Terrakion/Zekrom/Mewtwo-EX? Is it when the deck became mono-Terrakion? Is it when it became Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX? Is it when it became Terrakion/Terrakion-EX/Mewtwo-EX? Does the inclusion of each individual card make it a separate deck? Is Terrakion/Bouffalant/Zekrom/Absol/Victini a different deck archetype than Terrakion/Bouffalant/Virizion/Zekrom/Absol/Victini in your eyes? At what point do you draw the line between 6 Corners and Terrakion/Mewtwo-EX or whatever you want to call it?
The deck clearly evolved as the format changed. People stopped playing Absol and Victini in the deck because Durant and Chandelure lost steam with the new format, not because they came up with a totally different deck! People added Mewtwo-EX to their Terrakion decks because they wanted to hit other Mewtwo for Weakness, not because they wanted to play a completely different deck!
And how about other decks? A year ago, would you have considered Yanmega/Kingdra a different archetype than Yanmega/Kingdra/Zoroark? How about Typhlosion/Reshiram and Typhlosion/Reshiram/Ninetales? Yanmega/Magnezone and Yanmega/Magnezone/Kingdra? Where do you draw the line? At which point are they different archetypes rather than different variations of the same archetype?
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
I don't see the strategy as hitting for weakness. Yes, that's what the deck can do because Fighting is a good type, but I see them as just good partners that rushes through with fast attacks. Besides, Terrakion EX can even accelerate and 6 Corners never had anything like that, so that's yet another huge difference.
I have played games with 6 Corners. Once I figured it had a lot of problems namely with keeping up with the extremely fast metagame at the time, I took apart the deck. The deck could not survive and that was proven in tournaments.
I see the Terrakion EX/Mewtwo deck as simply a variation of the Quad Terrakion decks that were played at States (some did play Mewtwo as a tech in the deck). I don't see any association at all with 6 Corners and will instead be calling it by the name that fits it. Really, you shouldn't care about what the deck is called, to be perfectly honest. If you call this deck 6 Corners on any other forum, they won't be thinking of this Terrakion/Mewtwo deck.
I draw the line when all of the attackers are replaced. They're completely different decks that function completely dissimilar besides using Basics and hitting for fast damage. Adding one new attacker, changing one card, those are completely different than changing the whole lineup of the attackers. You said it yourself that people added Mewtwo to their Terrakion decks. That's exactly what I see the deck as, not 6 Corners. All the decks you listed at the end added one support card to the deck, so I don't see those as different. Those were just small variations.
dmaster out.
I don't see the strategy as hitting for weakness. Yes, that's what the deck can do because Fighting is a good type, but I see them as just good partners that rushes through with fast attacks. Besides, Terrakion EX can even accelerate and 6 Corners never had anything like that, so that's yet another huge difference.
I have played games with 6 Corners. Once I figured it had a lot of problems namely with keeping up with the extremely fast metagame at the time, I took apart the deck. The deck could not survive and that was proven in tournaments.
I see the Terrakion EX/Mewtwo deck as simply a variation of the Quad Terrakion decks that were played at States (some did play Mewtwo as a tech in the deck). I don't see any association at all with 6 Corners and will instead be calling it by the name that fits it. Really, you shouldn't care about what the deck is called, to be perfectly honest. If you call this deck 6 Corners on any other forum, they won't be thinking of this Terrakion/Mewtwo deck.
I draw the line when all of the attackers are replaced. They're completely different decks that function completely dissimilar besides using Basics and hitting for fast damage. Adding one new attacker, changing one card, those are completely different than changing the whole lineup of the attackers. You said it yourself that people added Mewtwo to their Terrakion decks. That's exactly what I see the deck as, not 6 Corners. All the decks you listed at the end added one support card to the deck, so I don't see those as different. Those were just small variations.
dmaster out.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
What Supporter lines have you been testing in the Black and White - On Format?
Just another discussion topic that I thought of. With the loss of Professor Oak's New Theory, Pokémon Collector, Twins, Sage's Training and other consistency cards, what Supporters have you been playing in your Black and White - On lists? How many of each Supporter do you usually play?
Right now, I'm working with 4 Juniper, 4 N and 3 Random Receiver per deck, but that seems pretty light. I might try adding in some Cheren. I like Cheren better than Bianca because Bianca does nothing for a completely dead opening hand.
What Supporter lines have you been testing in the Black and White - On Format?
Just another discussion topic that I thought of. With the loss of Professor Oak's New Theory, Pokémon Collector, Twins, Sage's Training and other consistency cards, what Supporters have you been playing in your Black and White - On lists? How many of each Supporter do you usually play?
Right now, I'm working with 4 Juniper, 4 N and 3 Random Receiver per deck, but that seems pretty light. I might try adding in some Cheren. I like Cheren better than Bianca because Bianca does nothing for a completely dead opening hand.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
Depends on the Deck, But N and Juniper are in all decks.
In decks that use heavy Energy Acceleration [Emboar] I'll play 1-2 Cilan.
I'll Cut Back my Juniper and N lines in decks that have a built in Draw engine, and Promote to running More Random Receiver.
Another way I've been dealing with Collector is that the Pre-Evo of one of my main attackers [Mincceno] Has Call for Family that Places on the Bench, so it can help me set up as well [As can stantler, and Emolga.]
Another way of Dealing with the Draw Cutback is teching Zoroark[Foul Play] for nasty Plot, Milotic [Who Grabs Any 3 Cards (Super Twins)] and Virizion for the Double Draw.
Vulpix Yolk said:
Depends on the Deck, But N and Juniper are in all decks.
In decks that use heavy Energy Acceleration [Emboar] I'll play 1-2 Cilan.
I'll Cut Back my Juniper and N lines in decks that have a built in Draw engine, and Promote to running More Random Receiver.
Another way I've been dealing with Collector is that the Pre-Evo of one of my main attackers [Mincceno] Has Call for Family that Places on the Bench, so it can help me set up as well [As can stantler, and Emolga.]
Another way of Dealing with the Draw Cutback is teching Zoroark[Foul Play] for nasty Plot, Milotic [Who Grabs Any 3 Cards (Super Twins)] and Virizion for the Double Draw.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
I've been playing 3-4 Juniper, 3-4 N, and 3-4 Bianca in most if not all of my decks. Its very consistent and allows you to get a supporter nearly every turn.
You mean Zoroark Foul Play right?
I've been playing 3-4 Juniper, 3-4 N, and 3-4 Bianca in most if not all of my decks. Its very consistent and allows you to get a supporter nearly every turn.
You mean Zoroark Foul Play right?
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
For Supporters, it really depends on the deck. RIght now I'm only using 4 RR and 4 Juniper in all my all my decks. I know some people think this isn't enough, but it is for me.
For Supporters, it really depends on the deck. RIght now I'm only using 4 RR and 4 Juniper in all my all my decks. I know some people think this isn't enough, but it is for me.
RE: The Official Black and White-On Metagame Speculation Thread
I've been liking 4 N, 3-4 Juniper, and 2-4 Cheren. Gives you a nice variety and some flexibility with the number of supporters you want to run. With running such a large number of Supporters I have moved away from Random Receiver, as I'm usually not concerned with having a Supporter in my hand.
I've been liking 4 N, 3-4 Juniper, and 2-4 Cheren. Gives you a nice variety and some flexibility with the number of supporters you want to run. With running such a large number of Supporters I have moved away from Random Receiver, as I'm usually not concerned with having a Supporter in my hand.