RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Now, why is Blaziken flat-out banned? Why can't you just use a non-Speed Boost Blaziken?
Now, why is Blaziken flat-out banned? Why can't you just use a non-Speed Boost Blaziken?
PokeBeach's Official 5th Gen Ban List
- Thread starter Pride
- Start date
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I understand that. But why? Blaziken without Speed Boost is by no means overpowered.
Besides, they essentially did that for Chandelure. Everybody who was anybody ran Shadow Tag Chandelure in the early days. Now you can't run Shadow Tag Chandelure.
I understand that. But why? Blaziken without Speed Boost is by no means overpowered.
Besides, they essentially did that for Chandelure. Everybody who was anybody ran Shadow Tag Chandelure in the early days. Now you can't run Shadow Tag Chandelure.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Yeah, yeah, didn't get reqs, but I didn't even try, so whatever.
I feel passionately enough for this that I'll just duplicate my 1500 word essay on Excadrill (So yeah, nominating Excadrill). Thundurus is auto-suspect, so I'm not going to nominate it, obviously.
---
I know that Excadrill's been through Suspect testing countless times and have been discussed to death already, but if you listen, you might learn something.
Basically, this is another "Excadrill is broken" rant. I'll carefully outline why and attempt to dismantle the existing arguments on why it is not.
Reasons why Excadrill is broken:
It completely and utterly renders fast/hyper/heavy/rapid offense (whatever you want to call it) unplayable
Eh, I used to hate this argument, but I've kind of changed my mind on that.
So yeah, I decide to try and get on PO to try (again) and make an ultra fast offense team last night (I mean, they are fun to play, your matches end quickly) and just simply cannot finish making it. Why? Because Excadrill completely walks over it, and if I were to put in a Pokemon to try and counter it, it would completely destroy the team's momentum.
The biggest reason I have heard on why Excadrill is not Uber material is that it is hard countered by a number of Pokemon, and it has a decent amount of checks. I'll go ahead and list them:
- Gliscor
- Skarmory
- Bronzong
- Tangrowth
- Hippowdon
- Conkelderp (+0 EQ 2HKOs, so you can only switch in once)
- Azumarill (See Azumarill)
- Politoed (Needs Choice Scarf, and is a check at best)
- Ninetales (Cannot switch in)
Out of those Pokemon, which one of those Pokemon belongs on the type of team that is in the title? In other words, which one of those Pokemon could sweep a team? The first five Pokemon cannot sweep (Gliscor hits like a girl, and cannot sweep anything apart from a full stall team). Conkeldurr, Azumarill and Politoed are revenge killers at best, and aren't what you call Pokemon that gain you momentum. Conkeldurr is, from my experiences, too easily walled. Azumarill and Politoed are complete and utter hazard fodder. That leaves Ninetales, which admittedly can actually hurt things with Nasty Plot and sun boosted Fire attacks with a decent base 100 Speed... if only that it doesn't lose to Excadrill's primary weather inducer more often than not, and base 81 SpA is kind of mediocre. So basically, the idea is that IF you want to run an offensive team, you HAVE to run one of the Pokemon listed above (if not then Excadrill can just waltz in and Stolen you). You have to waste a teamslot just to stop yourself getting swept by the mole, a teamslot which can be filled by a much more competent Pokemon, a Pokemon that doesn't lose you the momentum as soon as you bring it out.
If you want a comparison to something we know, try to compare Excadrill with 4th gen UU Yanmega. Both Pokemon destroyed offensive play. Yanmega was as easily walled as Excadrill. You stuck a Pokemon called Chansey in front of it and Yanmega couldn't do a damn thing. Registeel could check it once of twice, and if you had Stealth Rock off the field, SpD Altaria and Moltres kept it down reasonably well. Did that stop Yanmega being the most broken Pokemon 4th gen UU had ever seen? No. Stopping Yanmega meant putting a Pokemon that could not gain you a single kgms-1 of momentum (except maybe Moltres, but he had massive problems). Now, same thing for Excadrill. Stopping the mole meant putting something that was completely irrelevant to the goal of the team. I think the perfect example is PK and Jabba's Enter the Dragon team (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448743). For what purpose does Politoed serve other than to revenge Excadrill with? It says in the description that "it helps deal with Sandstorm teams better". Sandstorm teams = Excadrill for the most part. Instead of something that fits the slot better (Such as say, sweeper Deoxys-S to clean the mess that Haxorus and Latios shat behind, or even DD Mence to make the team even more epic), they had to use a Scarfed weather inducer when they already had a revenge killer.
I think this somes it up pretty well (From http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...ostcount=225):
Quote:
Bug Buzz, Air Slash, HP Ground, Protect @ Life Orb.
That absolutely rapes pure offensive teams, the only thing out of all your counters that can fit an offensive team is Moltres, who can't switch in with SR down anyway. The point I made two pages ago I think is that Yanmega forces your offensive team to slap a Milotic, Registeel, whatever in there JUST for Yanmega, kinda fudging up a play-style. Of course there's other option, which is carrying a shitload of priority, and even then Yanmega will eventually get in one of your pokes and get at least one kill.
Change to:
Quote:
Swords Dance, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Return @ Life Orb.
That absolutely rapes pure offensive teams, the only thing out of all your counters that can fit an offensive team is Choice Scarf Politoed, who can't do diddly squat to anything apart from Excadrill. The point I made two pages ago I think is that Excadrill forces your offensive team to slap a Gliscor, Skarmory, whatever in there JUST for Excadrill, kinda fudging up a play-style. Of course there's other option, which is carrying a shitload of priority, and even then Excadrill will eventually get in one of your pokes and get at least one kill.
So please, do not give me crap such as "Excadrill is counterable" or "Excadrill is easily walled", as it is not a be all and end all to whether a Pokemon is broken or not. Garchomp was counterable. Blaziken was counterable. Arceus is counterable. Does not stop them being broken.
Another point is that Excadrill can revenge virtually anything on an offensive team. DD Mence, DD Gyarados, NP Thundurus, sweeper Deoxys-S, whatever you want, Excadrill will kill it for you. While if it was just your average Choice Scarf revenge killer, I wouldn't be complaining. Something like Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Jirachi are balanced by 1) They are easily setup on by something else after they've revenged the mon, and 2) They are likely to be trapped by Wobbuffet, or Tyranitar, or whatever. Excadrill does not fall into either of those categories. It can easily come in, kill your sweeper, switch out, and kill something else just as easily, or even sweep before you know it. Having a double resistance to Stealth Rock and usable bulk helps it too. If your opponent does not have something like RP Landlos or Terrakion, and you can be sure that the sand stays up (which is easy, since Tyranitar wins lots of weather wars all by himself), unless you're stupid and let someone get a bunch of Dragon Dances or something, you can just bring in Excadrill and kill that Pokemon without much prediction at all.
In fact, you can run a very good stall team with Excadrill as an offensive spinner, and watch it decimate offense all by itself. Anything that Excadrill cannot take on (Gliscor, slower, bulkier sweepers) are easily walled by something else on the stall team. If you can find one Pokemon on a stall team that can easily destroy an entire playstyle by itself, you have a problem.
But wait, it's not limited to just offense!
Excadrill doesn't just annihilate full-blown offense. It causes problems for Stall, to a certain extent too. This is due to his ability to pull off Rapid Spin extremely easily. There is not a single spin-blocker in playable OU that can take on Excadrill and stop it from spinning (hell, you'd be hard pressed to find a spin-blocker in Ubers that can do it, too). So, you have your normal stall team, spending a number of turns trying to set up entry hazards... only to have Excadrill come in and spin it all away for nothing. While Excadrill does find it harder to actually sweep a stall team, it causes quite some problems nonetheless.
Excadrill messes up Speed tiers
This was originally pointed out by Snunch, so I'm not going to talk too much about it. You can find his post somewhere earlier in the last megathread, IIRC. The main points were:
- Massive gap between Excadrill and the next fastest Pokemon
- No-one runs Scarfers anymore
and uh...
- Speed tiers are all clustered around 100-111 because there's no point running faster (I think)
So, while we don't use the Uber characteristics any more, they are still a good reference to try and prove a Pokemon's power. I would like to remind you all on what it is:
Quote:
Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
It can sweep offensive teams with little effort already, just like I have mentioned. It also gives significant inconveniences to stall and balance, by spinning away hazards easily, and since weather is quite easily kept by Tyranitar, it puts a lot of pressure on those teams anyway. Destroy offense + Cause trouble for both balance and stall ~ Significant portion of teams in the metagame in my eyes.
tl:dr
Now get that mole out o_0
That is what some guy from Smogon wrote and I agree with him.
Yeah, yeah, didn't get reqs, but I didn't even try, so whatever.
I feel passionately enough for this that I'll just duplicate my 1500 word essay on Excadrill (So yeah, nominating Excadrill). Thundurus is auto-suspect, so I'm not going to nominate it, obviously.
---
I know that Excadrill's been through Suspect testing countless times and have been discussed to death already, but if you listen, you might learn something.
Basically, this is another "Excadrill is broken" rant. I'll carefully outline why and attempt to dismantle the existing arguments on why it is not.
Reasons why Excadrill is broken:
It completely and utterly renders fast/hyper/heavy/rapid offense (whatever you want to call it) unplayable
Eh, I used to hate this argument, but I've kind of changed my mind on that.
So yeah, I decide to try and get on PO to try (again) and make an ultra fast offense team last night (I mean, they are fun to play, your matches end quickly) and just simply cannot finish making it. Why? Because Excadrill completely walks over it, and if I were to put in a Pokemon to try and counter it, it would completely destroy the team's momentum.
The biggest reason I have heard on why Excadrill is not Uber material is that it is hard countered by a number of Pokemon, and it has a decent amount of checks. I'll go ahead and list them:
- Gliscor
- Skarmory
- Bronzong
- Tangrowth
- Hippowdon
- Conkelderp (+0 EQ 2HKOs, so you can only switch in once)
- Azumarill (See Azumarill)
- Politoed (Needs Choice Scarf, and is a check at best)
- Ninetales (Cannot switch in)
Out of those Pokemon, which one of those Pokemon belongs on the type of team that is in the title? In other words, which one of those Pokemon could sweep a team? The first five Pokemon cannot sweep (Gliscor hits like a girl, and cannot sweep anything apart from a full stall team). Conkeldurr, Azumarill and Politoed are revenge killers at best, and aren't what you call Pokemon that gain you momentum. Conkeldurr is, from my experiences, too easily walled. Azumarill and Politoed are complete and utter hazard fodder. That leaves Ninetales, which admittedly can actually hurt things with Nasty Plot and sun boosted Fire attacks with a decent base 100 Speed... if only that it doesn't lose to Excadrill's primary weather inducer more often than not, and base 81 SpA is kind of mediocre. So basically, the idea is that IF you want to run an offensive team, you HAVE to run one of the Pokemon listed above (if not then Excadrill can just waltz in and Stolen you). You have to waste a teamslot just to stop yourself getting swept by the mole, a teamslot which can be filled by a much more competent Pokemon, a Pokemon that doesn't lose you the momentum as soon as you bring it out.
If you want a comparison to something we know, try to compare Excadrill with 4th gen UU Yanmega. Both Pokemon destroyed offensive play. Yanmega was as easily walled as Excadrill. You stuck a Pokemon called Chansey in front of it and Yanmega couldn't do a damn thing. Registeel could check it once of twice, and if you had Stealth Rock off the field, SpD Altaria and Moltres kept it down reasonably well. Did that stop Yanmega being the most broken Pokemon 4th gen UU had ever seen? No. Stopping Yanmega meant putting a Pokemon that could not gain you a single kgms-1 of momentum (except maybe Moltres, but he had massive problems). Now, same thing for Excadrill. Stopping the mole meant putting something that was completely irrelevant to the goal of the team. I think the perfect example is PK and Jabba's Enter the Dragon team (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448743). For what purpose does Politoed serve other than to revenge Excadrill with? It says in the description that "it helps deal with Sandstorm teams better". Sandstorm teams = Excadrill for the most part. Instead of something that fits the slot better (Such as say, sweeper Deoxys-S to clean the mess that Haxorus and Latios shat behind, or even DD Mence to make the team even more epic), they had to use a Scarfed weather inducer when they already had a revenge killer.
I think this somes it up pretty well (From http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...ostcount=225):
Quote:
Bug Buzz, Air Slash, HP Ground, Protect @ Life Orb.
That absolutely rapes pure offensive teams, the only thing out of all your counters that can fit an offensive team is Moltres, who can't switch in with SR down anyway. The point I made two pages ago I think is that Yanmega forces your offensive team to slap a Milotic, Registeel, whatever in there JUST for Yanmega, kinda fudging up a play-style. Of course there's other option, which is carrying a shitload of priority, and even then Yanmega will eventually get in one of your pokes and get at least one kill.
Change to:
Quote:
Swords Dance, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Return @ Life Orb.
That absolutely rapes pure offensive teams, the only thing out of all your counters that can fit an offensive team is Choice Scarf Politoed, who can't do diddly squat to anything apart from Excadrill. The point I made two pages ago I think is that Excadrill forces your offensive team to slap a Gliscor, Skarmory, whatever in there JUST for Excadrill, kinda fudging up a play-style. Of course there's other option, which is carrying a shitload of priority, and even then Excadrill will eventually get in one of your pokes and get at least one kill.
So please, do not give me crap such as "Excadrill is counterable" or "Excadrill is easily walled", as it is not a be all and end all to whether a Pokemon is broken or not. Garchomp was counterable. Blaziken was counterable. Arceus is counterable. Does not stop them being broken.
Another point is that Excadrill can revenge virtually anything on an offensive team. DD Mence, DD Gyarados, NP Thundurus, sweeper Deoxys-S, whatever you want, Excadrill will kill it for you. While if it was just your average Choice Scarf revenge killer, I wouldn't be complaining. Something like Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Jirachi are balanced by 1) They are easily setup on by something else after they've revenged the mon, and 2) They are likely to be trapped by Wobbuffet, or Tyranitar, or whatever. Excadrill does not fall into either of those categories. It can easily come in, kill your sweeper, switch out, and kill something else just as easily, or even sweep before you know it. Having a double resistance to Stealth Rock and usable bulk helps it too. If your opponent does not have something like RP Landlos or Terrakion, and you can be sure that the sand stays up (which is easy, since Tyranitar wins lots of weather wars all by himself), unless you're stupid and let someone get a bunch of Dragon Dances or something, you can just bring in Excadrill and kill that Pokemon without much prediction at all.
In fact, you can run a very good stall team with Excadrill as an offensive spinner, and watch it decimate offense all by itself. Anything that Excadrill cannot take on (Gliscor, slower, bulkier sweepers) are easily walled by something else on the stall team. If you can find one Pokemon on a stall team that can easily destroy an entire playstyle by itself, you have a problem.
But wait, it's not limited to just offense!
Excadrill doesn't just annihilate full-blown offense. It causes problems for Stall, to a certain extent too. This is due to his ability to pull off Rapid Spin extremely easily. There is not a single spin-blocker in playable OU that can take on Excadrill and stop it from spinning (hell, you'd be hard pressed to find a spin-blocker in Ubers that can do it, too). So, you have your normal stall team, spending a number of turns trying to set up entry hazards... only to have Excadrill come in and spin it all away for nothing. While Excadrill does find it harder to actually sweep a stall team, it causes quite some problems nonetheless.
Excadrill messes up Speed tiers
This was originally pointed out by Snunch, so I'm not going to talk too much about it. You can find his post somewhere earlier in the last megathread, IIRC. The main points were:
- Massive gap between Excadrill and the next fastest Pokemon
- No-one runs Scarfers anymore
and uh...
- Speed tiers are all clustered around 100-111 because there's no point running faster (I think)
So, while we don't use the Uber characteristics any more, they are still a good reference to try and prove a Pokemon's power. I would like to remind you all on what it is:
Quote:
Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
It can sweep offensive teams with little effort already, just like I have mentioned. It also gives significant inconveniences to stall and balance, by spinning away hazards easily, and since weather is quite easily kept by Tyranitar, it puts a lot of pressure on those teams anyway. Destroy offense + Cause trouble for both balance and stall ~ Significant portion of teams in the metagame in my eyes.
tl:dr
Now get that mole out o_0
That is what some guy from Smogon wrote and I agree with him.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
It does make more sense, but I still don't agree. Blaiken had no counters. The only was to stop it was to try to get it to kill itself through recoil, or to revenge kill it. It could even take out its most common checks depending on what move it ran in one slot. You would be required to run multiple Pokemon to take out multiple sets. By the time you figure out the set, switched in your revenge killer, or let it kill itself you would already have lost a significant portion of your team.
This is similar to Thundurus; you can have Gastrodon to take out Focus Blast users, but you would die to Grass Knot ones. You could run faster things, but they would die on the switch or be paralyzed. Blissey could take Grass Knot sets with ease, but not Focus Blast ones.
The closest thing Garchomp had to a counter was Skarmory, who could only phaze it, and should WW miss then Chomp would just set up and sweep because Brave Bird can't do anything to a Pokemon of his bulk, and if you're lucky to avoid the haz then Chomp will be the last Pokemon and be able to set up and sweep the remains of your team.
Excadrill, though, has only one set. This set can be stopped by running only one Pokemon and not needing to fear losing half your team. Exadrill has actual counters who can switch in on a move, and threaten to take it out. Some people say that Return Excadrill stops Gliscor, but this isn't true if you play well. Excadrill can set up while you switch to Gliscor, set up while you break the Balloon, and then try to attack you with Return, but it still is a 2hko. It could just set up once, but it won't be able to 2hko at +2. It could predict and then attack you three times, but still not KO Gliscor.
TL;DR version: Excadrill actually has real counters, and by definition is not broken. Even though you are required to run one of its counters on all of your teams, this is true for a whole truck-load of Pokemon. Volcarona can sweep you with ease unless you run Heatran, who stops it cold. The Mixnape set I run is only countered by gyarados, and if not then I can destroy the faster Pokemon who would like to hurt Infernape on the switch, but it's not broken.
It does make more sense, but I still don't agree. Blaiken had no counters. The only was to stop it was to try to get it to kill itself through recoil, or to revenge kill it. It could even take out its most common checks depending on what move it ran in one slot. You would be required to run multiple Pokemon to take out multiple sets. By the time you figure out the set, switched in your revenge killer, or let it kill itself you would already have lost a significant portion of your team.
This is similar to Thundurus; you can have Gastrodon to take out Focus Blast users, but you would die to Grass Knot ones. You could run faster things, but they would die on the switch or be paralyzed. Blissey could take Grass Knot sets with ease, but not Focus Blast ones.
The closest thing Garchomp had to a counter was Skarmory, who could only phaze it, and should WW miss then Chomp would just set up and sweep because Brave Bird can't do anything to a Pokemon of his bulk, and if you're lucky to avoid the haz then Chomp will be the last Pokemon and be able to set up and sweep the remains of your team.
Excadrill, though, has only one set. This set can be stopped by running only one Pokemon and not needing to fear losing half your team. Exadrill has actual counters who can switch in on a move, and threaten to take it out. Some people say that Return Excadrill stops Gliscor, but this isn't true if you play well. Excadrill can set up while you switch to Gliscor, set up while you break the Balloon, and then try to attack you with Return, but it still is a 2hko. It could just set up once, but it won't be able to 2hko at +2. It could predict and then attack you three times, but still not KO Gliscor.
TL;DR version: Excadrill actually has real counters, and by definition is not broken. Even though you are required to run one of its counters on all of your teams, this is true for a whole truck-load of Pokemon. Volcarona can sweep you with ease unless you run Heatran, who stops it cold. The Mixnape set I run is only countered by gyarados, and if not then I can destroy the faster Pokemon who would like to hurt Infernape on the switch, but it's not broken.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Well, a lot of that is his opinion, shadow_scyther. Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and bulky waters all do well against more than just Excadrill, plus there are so many Pokemon that are good that work against Excadrill that its not really a liability to have one on your team. As for his, "You are carrying a Pokemon just to counter ss, and ss=excadrill" arguement, then we should ban everything and everything in the OU tier that poses a threat to any team. Let's ban Scrafty because you need a physical wall or a check to stop it. Let's ban Latios because you need a special wall or a check to stop it. Hey, why don't we just ban Politoed, because you need a bulky water and/or a Ferrothorn and even then it doesn't completely stop rain teams? Excadrill has so many more counters and checks than quite a few other Pokemon. Aa for it rendering super heavy mega ultra hyper offense that doesn't run any defensive Pokemon useless, so does any powerful scarfer. There went that arguement. As for Excadrill messing up speed tiers, that's really all Excadrill can do. Does Sharpedo mess up the speed tiers with Speed Boost? Maybe, but it doesn't matter than much because even with its speed it can be countered. Sure, maybe Sharpedo has a couple more counters than Excadrill, but there are still plenty that can handle Excadrill without trouble. Next, nobody runs Rapid Spin on Excadrill or they lose coverage and get even more walls, soiti doesn't trouble stall too much. Also, with Prankster Sableye released, we now have a spin-blocker than can severely cripple Excadrill and do quite a bit to other things too. Overall, I find that there really isn't enough reason to ban Excadrill. This is coming from someone who hates weather with a passion.
Well, a lot of that is his opinion, shadow_scyther. Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and bulky waters all do well against more than just Excadrill, plus there are so many Pokemon that are good that work against Excadrill that its not really a liability to have one on your team. As for his, "You are carrying a Pokemon just to counter ss, and ss=excadrill" arguement, then we should ban everything and everything in the OU tier that poses a threat to any team. Let's ban Scrafty because you need a physical wall or a check to stop it. Let's ban Latios because you need a special wall or a check to stop it. Hey, why don't we just ban Politoed, because you need a bulky water and/or a Ferrothorn and even then it doesn't completely stop rain teams? Excadrill has so many more counters and checks than quite a few other Pokemon. Aa for it rendering super heavy mega ultra hyper offense that doesn't run any defensive Pokemon useless, so does any powerful scarfer. There went that arguement. As for Excadrill messing up speed tiers, that's really all Excadrill can do. Does Sharpedo mess up the speed tiers with Speed Boost? Maybe, but it doesn't matter than much because even with its speed it can be countered. Sure, maybe Sharpedo has a couple more counters than Excadrill, but there are still plenty that can handle Excadrill without trouble. Next, nobody runs Rapid Spin on Excadrill or they lose coverage and get even more walls, soiti doesn't trouble stall too much. Also, with Prankster Sableye released, we now have a spin-blocker than can severely cripple Excadrill and do quite a bit to other things too. Overall, I find that there really isn't enough reason to ban Excadrill. This is coming from someone who hates weather with a passion.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Look at Latias from last gen; it had counters, Scizor and Tyranitar to be more exact. However, Latias pretty much forced you to run both of them on the same team no matter how much they contradicted the team, much as how Excadrill forces you to run either Gliscor, Skarmory, Bronzong, Hippodown (nobody runs him and look at the calcs of what a +2 Earthquake does), and Tangrowth (who is rare).
BTW, a Pokemon isn't broken because it has little to no counters. It's broken if it follows under the following:
Sweep: Something that can sweep the pretty much 95% of the metagame, would be overcentralizing, and force you to run silly Pokemon on your teams. Garchomp, Blaziken, and Ecxadrill fall under this catagory.
Wall: Something that can wall all of the metagame, would be overcentralizing, and was pretty much good game before the match even started. Lugia is, like, the prime example of this.
Support: Something is supportful to the degree where certain Pokémon would become overcentralized. This is why we banned Shadow Tag.
If we go by the idea that everything with few to no counters should be banned, then we might as well ban Haxorus because he has only one true counter. /jk
So yes, we are banning Thundurus and Excadrill. They all deserve their ban, and the only reason Excadrill wasn't banned from round one is because we wanted to play around with it for awhile, just like Garchomp of last gen.
(also, take all of this discussion to here now, sorry for waking up late http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/thread-competitive-battling-discussion-of-the-week-15 )
Look at Latias from last gen; it had counters, Scizor and Tyranitar to be more exact. However, Latias pretty much forced you to run both of them on the same team no matter how much they contradicted the team, much as how Excadrill forces you to run either Gliscor, Skarmory, Bronzong, Hippodown (nobody runs him and look at the calcs of what a +2 Earthquake does), and Tangrowth (who is rare).
BTW, a Pokemon isn't broken because it has little to no counters. It's broken if it follows under the following:
Sweep: Something that can sweep the pretty much 95% of the metagame, would be overcentralizing, and force you to run silly Pokemon on your teams. Garchomp, Blaziken, and Ecxadrill fall under this catagory.
Wall: Something that can wall all of the metagame, would be overcentralizing, and was pretty much good game before the match even started. Lugia is, like, the prime example of this.
Support: Something is supportful to the degree where certain Pokémon would become overcentralized. This is why we banned Shadow Tag.
If we go by the idea that everything with few to no counters should be banned, then we might as well ban Haxorus because he has only one true counter. /jk
So yes, we are banning Thundurus and Excadrill. They all deserve their ban, and the only reason Excadrill wasn't banned from round one is because we wanted to play around with it for awhile, just like Garchomp of last gen.
(also, take all of this discussion to here now, sorry for waking up late http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/thread-competitive-battling-discussion-of-the-week-15 )
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I think you forgot to edit them out of the Suspect list...
Thank you for this godsend, but I don't know why Thundurus wasn't taken out by Smogon sooner. Quote: "All counters to Thundurus are only 51% counters". That is/was true with both Gastrodon and Quagsire, and to an extent, Lanturn. (Ahh, just ignore that. I just don't get it...)
~AoH
I think you forgot to edit them out of the Suspect list...
Thank you for this godsend, but I don't know why Thundurus wasn't taken out by Smogon sooner. Quote: "All counters to Thundurus are only 51% counters". That is/was true with both Gastrodon and Quagsire, and to an extent, Lanturn. (Ahh, just ignore that. I just don't get it...)
~AoH
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I have updated the tiers on our PO Server.
I have updated the tiers on our PO Server.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Maybe you should add Volcarona, Dragonite and Snow Warning to the Notable Pokemon and Abilities that are suspect list.
Maybe you should add Volcarona, Dragonite and Snow Warning to the Notable Pokemon and Abilities that are suspect list.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I agree to Dragonite since its ability Multiscale increases its DEF when its at full health but I disagree to Volcarona. The only thing that would be a threat with it is when it uses Quiver Dance then starts the assault with Bug Buzz, Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Hurricane. But the sad part is Hurricane only gains its 100 accuracy in Rain. Volcarona doesn't work well in rain unless its Fire attacks are swaped for moves like HP Ice and stuff like that. Snow Warning I will agree to since there are several abilities it can combine with. Snow Cloak for evasion and Ice Body to restore HP. Its one thing when Hail is used but another when combined with Snow Warning.
I agree to Dragonite since its ability Multiscale increases its DEF when its at full health but I disagree to Volcarona. The only thing that would be a threat with it is when it uses Quiver Dance then starts the assault with Bug Buzz, Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Hurricane. But the sad part is Hurricane only gains its 100 accuracy in Rain. Volcarona doesn't work well in rain unless its Fire attacks are swaped for moves like HP Ice and stuff like that. Snow Warning I will agree to since there are several abilities it can combine with. Snow Cloak for evasion and Ice Body to restore HP. Its one thing when Hail is used but another when combined with Snow Warning.
Thanks. But I am correct in both areas saying its typeing prevents weakness but its fraility makes it an easy kill. The only way to deal with Sabeleye is with powerful attacks.DNA said:
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
First off, Multiscale does not increase defense. It only reduces the damage of a move by 50% when Dragonite (or Lugia) is at full health. This makes both of them almost impossible to OHKO, bar some choice-specs x4 effective attack. Second, Volcarona is a huge threat, and mostly for the reason you posted. Bulky versions are also hard to KO when they have 1-2 Quiver dances up, and if they have 4 or more up, it's usually gg. ChestoRest sets and Morning sun add reliable recovery, so there is some reason behind wanting it banned. However, Stealth Rock, Taunt, or quick physical attackers can usually take Volc down. I don't think Snow Warning will ever be bannable, unless an influx of Pokemon with a chlorophyll-like ability for hail are released. Ice Body is usually wasted on things like Glaceon anyways, where you really don't need recovery. Snow Cloak can be very annoying though. And since Abomasnow sucks anyways, Hail teams won't be a huge presence in the metagame for a while. Although they're still my favorite. <3
He was pointing out that you were describing Sableye as some invincible wall, and then after I posted, you just blatantly agreed with everything I said. Again, just back up your statements with facts or research, and you'll be good to go.
First off, Multiscale does not increase defense. It only reduces the damage of a move by 50% when Dragonite (or Lugia) is at full health. This makes both of them almost impossible to OHKO, bar some choice-specs x4 effective attack. Second, Volcarona is a huge threat, and mostly for the reason you posted. Bulky versions are also hard to KO when they have 1-2 Quiver dances up, and if they have 4 or more up, it's usually gg. ChestoRest sets and Morning sun add reliable recovery, so there is some reason behind wanting it banned. However, Stealth Rock, Taunt, or quick physical attackers can usually take Volc down. I don't think Snow Warning will ever be bannable, unless an influx of Pokemon with a chlorophyll-like ability for hail are released. Ice Body is usually wasted on things like Glaceon anyways, where you really don't need recovery. Snow Cloak can be very annoying though. And since Abomasnow sucks anyways, Hail teams won't be a huge presence in the metagame for a while. Although they're still my favorite. <3
AlphaNinja said:
He was pointing out that you were describing Sableye as some invincible wall, and then after I posted, you just blatantly agreed with everything I said. Again, just back up your statements with facts or research, and you'll be good to go.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Snow warning is a suspect only if all other weathers are banned which some guys on Smogon support.
Snow warning is a suspect only if all other weathers are banned which some guys on Smogon support.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I don't know how they can even consider Snowstorm suspect ever in OU, even if all other weathers were banned. Either the players over there aren't playing well or something is up because Snow Warning is certainly not broken at all. There are few good abusers of it. I don't recall any nonice Pokemon having an ability that is affected by Hail excluding Castform. Hail teams in general are weak to Conkeldurr, Jirachi, Infernape, though I'm not sure of its popularity, Heatran, and Terrakion. Many of those are fairly often seen on teams. While some of those are weak to water which is a popular second type of ice type Pokemon, teams usually have something to handle them as well. Jellicent and Ferrothorn work great against those Pokemon. When you also consider how popular Rotom-W is, it also does very well against Hail Teams. The only Pokemon viable in OU that can get STAB in addition to being supereffective on a hail team is Abomasnow.
Snow Cloak gives a 20% chance to evade attacks in the snow. Unlike Garchomp, these Pokemon have actual counters, not just checks, and quite a few at that. I believe this makes it less of a concern than Sand Veil. Glaceon, while having a large Special Attack, has a limited movepool, as do many ice Pokemon that can get Snow Cloak.
Ice Body restores 12% of the Pokemon's HP in a blizzard. While it can be combined with Leftovers for 18% recovery each turn, it still doesn't take away from the fact that Ice-Types tend to have many weaknesses.
I don't know how they can even consider Snowstorm suspect ever in OU, even if all other weathers were banned. Either the players over there aren't playing well or something is up because Snow Warning is certainly not broken at all. There are few good abusers of it. I don't recall any nonice Pokemon having an ability that is affected by Hail excluding Castform. Hail teams in general are weak to Conkeldurr, Jirachi, Infernape, though I'm not sure of its popularity, Heatran, and Terrakion. Many of those are fairly often seen on teams. While some of those are weak to water which is a popular second type of ice type Pokemon, teams usually have something to handle them as well. Jellicent and Ferrothorn work great against those Pokemon. When you also consider how popular Rotom-W is, it also does very well against Hail Teams. The only Pokemon viable in OU that can get STAB in addition to being supereffective on a hail team is Abomasnow.
Snow Cloak gives a 20% chance to evade attacks in the snow. Unlike Garchomp, these Pokemon have actual counters, not just checks, and quite a few at that. I believe this makes it less of a concern than Sand Veil. Glaceon, while having a large Special Attack, has a limited movepool, as do many ice Pokemon that can get Snow Cloak.
Ice Body restores 12% of the Pokemon's HP in a blizzard. While it can be combined with Leftovers for 18% recovery each turn, it still doesn't take away from the fact that Ice-Types tend to have many weaknesses.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I believe that the reason they nominated Snow Warning for ban was because it was part of the Ban all Auto Weather abilities umbrella ban.
I believe that the reason they nominated Snow Warning for ban was because it was part of the Ban all Auto Weather abilities umbrella ban.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Well that would essentially Ban Abomasnow, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon since they only have one abilility. Of those Pokemon, only Tyranitar is actually a threat on its own. As such, I believe that would be plain stupid.
Well that would essentially Ban Abomasnow, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon since they only have one abilility. Of those Pokemon, only Tyranitar is actually a threat on its own. As such, I believe that would be plain stupid.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
^
This is why I posted it. If all other weathers are banned (which I hope are not) then Hail is going to be a viable strategy in OU just like last generation. It probably still wouldn't be game breaking but it would be fair to ban it if Sandstorm for some reason gets banned. To be clear both weathers aren't even close to broken.
Bippa201 said:
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This is why I posted it. If all other weathers are banned (which I hope are not) then Hail is going to be a viable strategy in OU just like last generation. It probably still wouldn't be game breaking but it would be fair to ban it if Sandstorm for some reason gets banned. To be clear both weathers aren't even close to broken.