RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Lol. Soul Dew isn't banned. (YAY!)
Lol. Soul Dew isn't banned. (YAY!)
PokeBeach's Official 5th Gen Ban List
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RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Soul Dew isn't banned because there is no way to obtain it in the fifth generation games.
Soul Dew isn't banned because there is no way to obtain it in the fifth generation games.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I seriously believe that Volcarona should be banned with Excadrill gone. The only way to outspeed it after 1 Quiver Dance is with a Scarfer that has a base speed of over 100. Of those, the only one I can think of that can actually kill a Volcarona would be Scarf Landorus. So, the only checks it has are Scarf Landorus and CB Azumarill, both of which do basically nothing against the majority of the rest of the metagame and therefore it hinders teams greatly to carry them. Next is counters. There are imo no 100% counters to Volcarona, just a couple depending on its last move (assuming its first 3 are Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz, and a fire move). There is Chansey and Blissey, who lose to a Morning Sun variant if they lack Toxic, and they lose completely to a rest variant. There is bulky Dragonite, who can only beat Volcarona if Volcarona lacks HP Ice or maybe Rock. Specially bulky Gyarados falls in the same boat as Dragonite, except it is beaten by HP Electric and maybe Rock, but not Ice. The only 100% counter to Volcarona imo is Heatran. Heatran loses to HP Ground variants unless it has an Air Balloon intact, which is very hard to maintain throughout an entire match. Even so, if Heatran lacks HP Rock, it will often fail to beat a Volcarona with a normally effective Hidden Power. Overall, there are 2 checks to Volcarona, never more than 4 counters to it depending on its final move, and the only 100% counter loses if it takes any hit throughout the match.
I think the only reason Volcarona escaped the ban last time was because Excadrill was so common and an Excadrill in sand can outspeed and OHKO a +1 Volcarona. Without Excadrill and the fact that both of its checks are useless other than for Volcarona (and the fact that most of its few "counters" don't fit on any given team) it really makes you go may too far out of your way to stop a Volcarona. I don't know if we should ban it before Smogon officially does, but it seems pretty cheap to me.
I seriously believe that Volcarona should be banned with Excadrill gone. The only way to outspeed it after 1 Quiver Dance is with a Scarfer that has a base speed of over 100. Of those, the only one I can think of that can actually kill a Volcarona would be Scarf Landorus. So, the only checks it has are Scarf Landorus and CB Azumarill, both of which do basically nothing against the majority of the rest of the metagame and therefore it hinders teams greatly to carry them. Next is counters. There are imo no 100% counters to Volcarona, just a couple depending on its last move (assuming its first 3 are Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz, and a fire move). There is Chansey and Blissey, who lose to a Morning Sun variant if they lack Toxic, and they lose completely to a rest variant. There is bulky Dragonite, who can only beat Volcarona if Volcarona lacks HP Ice or maybe Rock. Specially bulky Gyarados falls in the same boat as Dragonite, except it is beaten by HP Electric and maybe Rock, but not Ice. The only 100% counter to Volcarona imo is Heatran. Heatran loses to HP Ground variants unless it has an Air Balloon intact, which is very hard to maintain throughout an entire match. Even so, if Heatran lacks HP Rock, it will often fail to beat a Volcarona with a normally effective Hidden Power. Overall, there are 2 checks to Volcarona, never more than 4 counters to it depending on its final move, and the only 100% counter loses if it takes any hit throughout the match.
I think the only reason Volcarona escaped the ban last time was because Excadrill was so common and an Excadrill in sand can outspeed and OHKO a +1 Volcarona. Without Excadrill and the fact that both of its checks are useless other than for Volcarona (and the fact that most of its few "counters" don't fit on any given team) it really makes you go may too far out of your way to stop a Volcarona. I don't know if we should ban it before Smogon officially does, but it seems pretty cheap to me.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
You failed to mention Stealth Rocks, which is a major factor. Any team that is halfway decent is going to have an entry hazard, and SR takes half of Volcarona's HP. That coupled with Roar/Whirlwind is basically why Volcarona is not as powerful as you might think.
You failed to mention Stealth Rocks, which is a major factor. Any team that is halfway decent is going to have an entry hazard, and SR takes half of Volcarona's HP. That coupled with Roar/Whirlwind is basically why Volcarona is not as powerful as you might think.
PMJ
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RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
You know, not to make it sound as trivial as this, but Stealth Rock rapes Volcarona pretty badly. That's probably the #1 reason it isn't uber. Also, Volcarona is susceptible to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
That said, Volcarona has many checks and you mentioned a couple. Resisting Fire and Bug isn't _that_ hard to do in OU; Gyarados, Heatran (especially Heatran), and Terrakion all resist Volcarona's STAB.
Thick Fat Snorlax is a full stop to all Volcarona sets barring something stupid like you letting it get to +6. Even with a neutral nature and no Attack investment, Rock Slide does 60.1% - 70.8% to 248/252 Bold Volcarona, so you can imagine what it does to less bulky versions. Give him a band and the damage shoots up to 89% - 105.1%, so you've got a fair chance of OHKOing. Rock Slide also has the added benefit of bypassing Flame Body since it isn't a contact move.
But yeah. Hazards. Switch in anything that can take a +1 attack from Volcarona and force it out.
You know, not to make it sound as trivial as this, but Stealth Rock rapes Volcarona pretty badly. That's probably the #1 reason it isn't uber. Also, Volcarona is susceptible to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
That said, Volcarona has many checks and you mentioned a couple. Resisting Fire and Bug isn't _that_ hard to do in OU; Gyarados, Heatran (especially Heatran), and Terrakion all resist Volcarona's STAB.
Thick Fat Snorlax is a full stop to all Volcarona sets barring something stupid like you letting it get to +6. Even with a neutral nature and no Attack investment, Rock Slide does 60.1% - 70.8% to 248/252 Bold Volcarona, so you can imagine what it does to less bulky versions. Give him a band and the damage shoots up to 89% - 105.1%, so you've got a fair chance of OHKOing. Rock Slide also has the added benefit of bypassing Flame Body since it isn't a contact move.
But yeah. Hazards. Switch in anything that can take a +1 attack from Volcarona and force it out.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I am with Dark Void this time. Only Heatran and Terrakion can stop this thing. The real problem is the ChestoRest Volcarona in Sun. As most sun teams run a spinner it is not that difficult to switch Volcarona in. Also lots of sun teams run Dugtrio so it can trap and kill Politoed, Ttar and Heatran. I am currently using a classic ChestoRest with Fire Blast over Fiery Dance on my HO team that carries Ninetales to change the weather because rain and sand are popular.
Counters:
Scarf Landorus: good luck switching into Fire Blast
Terrakion: not the bulkiest guy out there but it resists both stabs and gets the sp.def boost if sand is up
Chansey/Blissey: Just use Rest when Toxic and SToss wears you down and they can't do anything to you
Snorlax: Snorlax is very (very, very, very) rare in OU, I ve seen it like few times and half of those times it was from guys who think they are Ash Ketchum.
Heatran: stops it cold if it doesn't run HP Ground (Most of them run HP Rock if it is the offensive Volcarona)
Gyara: +1 Fire Blast in the sun to 248HP/0sp.def Gyara 62.6% - 73.8% and Gyara can only phaze it because defensive Gyarados don't run Stone Edge and Waterfall isn't going to do that much in sun.
Dragonite: +1 Fire Blast in the sun to 252Hp/0sp.def Dragonite (aka Bulky DD nite) that is not at full health 64.2% - 75.6% so if you have Stealth Rocks there is even a slight chance of killing it but don't count on it. But look at this scenario: Your opponent sends out Volcarona and you switch to you Dnite as it gets to +1. You take a Fire Blast like a boss with you DW ability (I can't remember the name -.-) and then you fail to KO with Dragon Claw(51.6% - 61%)or Fire Punch (48.4% - 57% = sun boosted) and Volcarona has a good chance to kill you next turn.
I am with Dark Void this time. Only Heatran and Terrakion can stop this thing. The real problem is the ChestoRest Volcarona in Sun. As most sun teams run a spinner it is not that difficult to switch Volcarona in. Also lots of sun teams run Dugtrio so it can trap and kill Politoed, Ttar and Heatran. I am currently using a classic ChestoRest with Fire Blast over Fiery Dance on my HO team that carries Ninetales to change the weather because rain and sand are popular.
Counters:
Scarf Landorus: good luck switching into Fire Blast
Terrakion: not the bulkiest guy out there but it resists both stabs and gets the sp.def boost if sand is up
Chansey/Blissey: Just use Rest when Toxic and SToss wears you down and they can't do anything to you
Snorlax: Snorlax is very (very, very, very) rare in OU, I ve seen it like few times and half of those times it was from guys who think they are Ash Ketchum.
Heatran: stops it cold if it doesn't run HP Ground (Most of them run HP Rock if it is the offensive Volcarona)
Gyara: +1 Fire Blast in the sun to 248HP/0sp.def Gyara 62.6% - 73.8% and Gyara can only phaze it because defensive Gyarados don't run Stone Edge and Waterfall isn't going to do that much in sun.
Dragonite: +1 Fire Blast in the sun to 252Hp/0sp.def Dragonite (aka Bulky DD nite) that is not at full health 64.2% - 75.6% so if you have Stealth Rocks there is even a slight chance of killing it but don't count on it. But look at this scenario: Your opponent sends out Volcarona and you switch to you Dnite as it gets to +1. You take a Fire Blast like a boss with you DW ability (I can't remember the name -.-) and then you fail to KO with Dragon Claw(51.6% - 61%)or Fire Punch (48.4% - 57% = sun boosted) and Volcarona has a good chance to kill you next turn.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I failed to mention Stealth Rocks for 2 reasons, 1 because its not that hard to stick a Volcarona in the lead position (not that great though since Politoed and maybe Tyraniatra are pretty common leads, and Volcarona can't set up on either) and Rapid Spin/Magic Mirror. A good player can abuse Espeon to keep SR off the field, or simply switch in Volcarona as you set it up to avoid damage. Also, there is Rapid Spin. Sure you can switch in a ghost, but (correct me if I'm wrong) Eviolite Dusclops and maybe Dusknoir are the only ghosts that aren't 2HKOed by offensive Starmie, so its hard to keep SR up against a good player with a offensive spinning Starmie. And, since Dusclops and Dusknoir don't fit in offensive teams at all (they don't fit in quite a few teams since the only type they are really good at absorbing is fighting, which Pokemon like Gliscor can do and more) its quite restricting to be forced to have them, a phazer, and a SR user who can stop Volcarona if it switches into them. That or you have to carry at least 2 Pokemon to counter Volcarona based on its set, so either way Volcarona is dictating a far larger part of your team than Excadrill ever did.
I failed to mention Stealth Rocks for 2 reasons, 1 because its not that hard to stick a Volcarona in the lead position (not that great though since Politoed and maybe Tyraniatra are pretty common leads, and Volcarona can't set up on either) and Rapid Spin/Magic Mirror. A good player can abuse Espeon to keep SR off the field, or simply switch in Volcarona as you set it up to avoid damage. Also, there is Rapid Spin. Sure you can switch in a ghost, but (correct me if I'm wrong) Eviolite Dusclops and maybe Dusknoir are the only ghosts that aren't 2HKOed by offensive Starmie, so its hard to keep SR up against a good player with a offensive spinning Starmie. And, since Dusclops and Dusknoir don't fit in offensive teams at all (they don't fit in quite a few teams since the only type they are really good at absorbing is fighting, which Pokemon like Gliscor can do and more) its quite restricting to be forced to have them, a phazer, and a SR user who can stop Volcarona if it switches into them. That or you have to carry at least 2 Pokemon to counter Volcarona based on its set, so either way Volcarona is dictating a far larger part of your team than Excadrill ever did.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Volcarona loses a lot of it's effectiveness in the lead spot, because you lose the advantage the sun brings you, and Ttar and Politoed make good counters early game, like you said. Stealth Rock will always be one of the best moves in the game, and you won't be able to remove them in every match you have, spinner or not. Saying Volcarona doesn't have a problem with SR as long as you have a Spinner is the same as saying you don't have a problem with Excadrill as long as you have priority.
Volcarona loses a lot of it's effectiveness in the lead spot, because you lose the advantage the sun brings you, and Ttar and Politoed make good counters early game, like you said. Stealth Rock will always be one of the best moves in the game, and you won't be able to remove them in every match you have, spinner or not. Saying Volcarona doesn't have a problem with SR as long as you have a Spinner is the same as saying you don't have a problem with Excadrill as long as you have priority.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
@Dark Void: You act like once you remove SR by spinning it, it's gone for good. Because it's not. Things like Ferrothorn, Heatran, Forretress, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Tyranitar have the bulk to setup hazards over the course of the match multiple times no matter how many times you spin it.
And of those Pokemon, Espeon can switch into none of their attacks besides SR. Espeon doesn't guarantee you hazards if you're playing a smart player.
@Dark Void: You act like once you remove SR by spinning it, it's gone for good. Because it's not. Things like Ferrothorn, Heatran, Forretress, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Tyranitar have the bulk to setup hazards over the course of the match multiple times no matter how many times you spin it.
And of those Pokemon, Espeon can switch into none of their attacks besides SR. Espeon doesn't guarantee you hazards if you're playing a smart player.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Well, Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and Jirachi (if the Rachi lacks T-Wave and it isn't in rain) are all set-up fodder for Volcarona, so being forced to switch those in again can let Volcarona come in opposite them as they set up SR and set up as they switch. And I'll agree that Espeon is very tricky to use and if you mispredict the opponent can get up Rocks, but a Spinner if prefered with Volcarona anyway. Either way, you are forced to run 2 Pokemon just to counter Volcarona (either Tyranitar and a spin blocker or two of Heatran, Chansey/Blissey, and Gyarados/Dragonite) which seems way more overcentralizing than Excadrill imo, especially because a lot of those Pokemon don't fit on many teams.
Well, Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and Jirachi (if the Rachi lacks T-Wave and it isn't in rain) are all set-up fodder for Volcarona, so being forced to switch those in again can let Volcarona come in opposite them as they set up SR and set up as they switch. And I'll agree that Espeon is very tricky to use and if you mispredict the opponent can get up Rocks, but a Spinner if prefered with Volcarona anyway. Either way, you are forced to run 2 Pokemon just to counter Volcarona (either Tyranitar and a spin blocker or two of Heatran, Chansey/Blissey, and Gyarados/Dragonite) which seems way more overcentralizing than Excadrill imo, especially because a lot of those Pokemon don't fit on many teams.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
All of the Pokemon you listed go together well. I see no problem with running Dragonite and Heatran together since they cover each others weaknesses, and Heatran is commonly on sand teams with Tyranitar.
People aren't running those because Volcorona forces them to; they're running them because they have great synergy. Volcarona is in no way overcentralizing the metagame just because these Pokemon have good synergy.
All of the Pokemon you listed go together well. I see no problem with running Dragonite and Heatran together since they cover each others weaknesses, and Heatran is commonly on sand teams with Tyranitar.
People aren't running those because Volcorona forces them to; they're running them because they have great synergy. Volcarona is in no way overcentralizing the metagame just because these Pokemon have good synergy.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Thundurus had no real counter, so you were basically forced to run way more than just two Pokemon to be able to combat it effectively. Plus, many teams run those Pokemon anyways. Ttar, Dragonite, and Heatran? Yeah, those aren't used often. They're TOTALLY worthless except for being Volcarona counters. ;D (Sarcasm, as I'm sure you could tell)
dangit james you ugly ninja
no u! ~ TDL
Thundurus had no real counter, so you were basically forced to run way more than just two Pokemon to be able to combat it effectively. Plus, many teams run those Pokemon anyways. Ttar, Dragonite, and Heatran? Yeah, those aren't used often. They're TOTALLY worthless except for being Volcarona counters. ;D (Sarcasm, as I'm sure you could tell)
dangit james you ugly ninja
no u! ~ TDL
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
My point isn't so much that they are being just run to counter Volcarona, even if the counters are good Pokemon that doesn't stop it from overcentralizing. It shouldn't matter that they are good Pokemon, having 2 Pokemon that must be on every team just to counter Volcarona limtis how much you can do with your team, and how original you can make it. Technically, you only needed one Pokemon to counter Excadrill, and Gliscor and Skarm were good against other Pokemon too, so why was Excadrill more broken than Volcarona now?
My point isn't so much that they are being just run to counter Volcarona, even if the counters are good Pokemon that doesn't stop it from overcentralizing. It shouldn't matter that they are good Pokemon, having 2 Pokemon that must be on every team just to counter Volcarona limtis how much you can do with your team, and how original you can make it. Technically, you only needed one Pokemon to counter Excadrill, and Gliscor and Skarm were good against other Pokemon too, so why was Excadrill more broken than Volcarona now?
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Did you not read my long post in the Comp. Discussion of the Week Thread on why Excadrill overcentralized the metagame? Son, I am disappoint.
Basically, Excadrill made scarf useless, certain playstyles impossible to pull off, and forced you to run a counter on your team no matter how bad it went with the team. Volcarona does none of these.
Did you not read my long post in the Comp. Discussion of the Week Thread on why Excadrill overcentralized the metagame? Son, I am disappoint.
Basically, Excadrill made scarf useless, certain playstyles impossible to pull off, and forced you to run a counter on your team no matter how bad it went with the team. Volcarona does none of these.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
When will people learn that a Pokemon's banning has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the number of counters it has? Your best argument, Dark Void, is that Volcarona overcentralizes the metagame by making you run two Pokemon that every team should have a version of anyways. A specially defensive wall is really all you need, and Heatran and Blissey are perfect examples. Since you don't seem to understand what TDL is saying, I tried spelling it out a different way for you.
When will people learn that a Pokemon's banning has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the number of counters it has? Your best argument, Dark Void, is that Volcarona overcentralizes the metagame by making you run two Pokemon that every team should have a version of anyways. A specially defensive wall is really all you need, and Heatran and Blissey are perfect examples. Since you don't seem to understand what TDL is saying, I tried spelling it out a different way for you.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Dark Void you seem to not be getting it, so if I were you, I would read the thread thourghly. Excadrill overcentralized the metagame in a huge way and wiped a entire part of the game off the field just by it being in the metagame.
Dark Void you seem to not be getting it, so if I were you, I would read the thread thourghly. Excadrill overcentralized the metagame in a huge way and wiped a entire part of the game off the field just by it being in the metagame.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Alright, sorry, I don't seem to be understanding this properly, I guess I just flat out don't have enough experience against Excadrill or Volcarona to experience what you guys are talking about. I could continue to argue some of your points but I can see this isn't going anywhere fast so I'm going to shut up instead. You all have more experience than me, so you are probably right, and lets leave it at that.
Alright, sorry, I don't seem to be understanding this properly, I guess I just flat out don't have enough experience against Excadrill or Volcarona to experience what you guys are talking about. I could continue to argue some of your points but I can see this isn't going anywhere fast so I'm going to shut up instead. You all have more experience than me, so you are probably right, and lets leave it at that.
PMJ
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RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Let's put it this way. Excadrill has unbeatable speed, a great STAB type, immunity to both Toxic and Thunder Wave (a bigger deal than you might think, considering paralyzing sweepers is one of the easiest ways to stop them (Stun Spore doesn't count unless you're Whimsicott who is jank anyway)), resistance to Stealth Rock and immunity to Toxic Spikes, sky-high Attack, and Swords Dance to top it all off. Excadrill has no counters, only checks. He can get past them with the right move but, like Garchomp, facing him turns into a guessing game with deadly consequences for guessing wrong. If he's got the move that gets him past your check, you're done.
Volcarona is mauled by hazards. He can also be forced out by someone like Scarf Terrakion or any scarfer faster than 100 speed (no shortage of those) if you can get them in on a predicted Quiver Dance (which isn't hard considering it's almost always his first move). Blissey beats any Volcarona that lacks Rest (almost all of them). Snorlax beats all of them no matter what set it has. Volcarona has its own share of checks but considering you have to choose between Rock and Ground for coverage usually means you can't hit everything. Volcarona is also worn down by sandstorm.
It's not to say that Volcarona is weak. Volcarona is very strong. But Volcarona requires a lot of support to be that strong, unlike Excadrill who gets 600 Speed just from switching in.
Does that help?
Let's put it this way. Excadrill has unbeatable speed, a great STAB type, immunity to both Toxic and Thunder Wave (a bigger deal than you might think, considering paralyzing sweepers is one of the easiest ways to stop them (Stun Spore doesn't count unless you're Whimsicott who is jank anyway)), resistance to Stealth Rock and immunity to Toxic Spikes, sky-high Attack, and Swords Dance to top it all off. Excadrill has no counters, only checks. He can get past them with the right move but, like Garchomp, facing him turns into a guessing game with deadly consequences for guessing wrong. If he's got the move that gets him past your check, you're done.
Volcarona is mauled by hazards. He can also be forced out by someone like Scarf Terrakion or any scarfer faster than 100 speed (no shortage of those) if you can get them in on a predicted Quiver Dance (which isn't hard considering it's almost always his first move). Blissey beats any Volcarona that lacks Rest (almost all of them). Snorlax beats all of them no matter what set it has. Volcarona has its own share of checks but considering you have to choose between Rock and Ground for coverage usually means you can't hit everything. Volcarona is also worn down by sandstorm.
It's not to say that Volcarona is weak. Volcarona is very strong. But Volcarona requires a lot of support to be that strong, unlike Excadrill who gets 600 Speed just from switching in.
Does that help?
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I hate to correct you but Excadrill does have two counters. Vacuum Wave Choice Specs Lucario and Choice Band Mach Punch Conkelldor. Even if the person using Excadrill doesn't think either of them have those attacks they will be proven wrong with a ONKO.
I hate to correct you but Excadrill does have two counters. Vacuum Wave Choice Specs Lucario and Choice Band Mach Punch Conkelldor. Even if the person using Excadrill doesn't think either of them have those attacks they will be proven wrong with a ONKO.