Team ShadowForce ~ Looking for members.
- Thread starter shadoworganoid
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RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
Rank:Swift Rapidash
I've been wanting a rank up battle, but didn't have the time due to getting everything ready for school, but now I've got everything situated, and I'll try and be more active.
Rank:Swift Rapidash
I've been wanting a rank up battle, but didn't have the time due to getting everything ready for school, but now I've got everything situated, and I'll try and be more active.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
Rank: Raging Houndoom
Well if you're short a few FA's I can help out in that department... Seeing as a few people need to be test battled... Then again I'll be MIA here and there for the next week so that doesn't really help much lol. BUT STILL, it's up to you Shadow.
And it's nice to see the 'You wanna battle' thing comming back here [/sarcasm] Thought we ruled that out...
Rank: Raging Houndoom
Well if you're short a few FA's I can help out in that department... Seeing as a few people need to be test battled... Then again I'll be MIA here and there for the next week so that doesn't really help much lol. BUT STILL, it's up to you Shadow.
And it's nice to see the 'You wanna battle' thing comming back here [/sarcasm] Thought we ruled that out...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
Rank: SR. By the way, I'm waiting for my rank up battle, so would I have to test with you, shadoworganoid?
Rank: SR. By the way, I'm waiting for my rank up battle, so would I have to test with you, shadoworganoid?
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
Members should still be allowed to join. This is a Temp Thread. Which means Shadoworganoid can test members that want to join the clan. Sure there will be less active members but the weekends are the time to be active here in the clan. It should not be too bad on weekends.
Members should still be allowed to join. This is a Temp Thread. Which means Shadoworganoid can test members that want to join the clan. Sure there will be less active members but the weekends are the time to be active here in the clan. It should not be too bad on weekends.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
Well... we need two more members to be FA... so I guess there are tryouts... if it is alright with you Shadow, I will be running those tryouts... Also, PMJfan, you can't test Anybody 'cause you're not the right rank... Why does that kid think he can do whatever?
Also, good job guys on finally deciding on this thread... and also making it happen... shadow, you have a responsibility now...
And to joeypals, we're supposed to have a clan tourney that was going to get started on the 13th.. just reminding you in case you have forgotten even though the 13th was only two days ago... what's going to happen with that? also, I am available for a battle in like 20 mins when I finish training a tyranitar for my friend...
EDIT: I guess I didn't really look... sorry joey... I will get my battle done and over with soon... thanks...
Well... we need two more members to be FA... so I guess there are tryouts... if it is alright with you Shadow, I will be running those tryouts... Also, PMJfan, you can't test Anybody 'cause you're not the right rank... Why does that kid think he can do whatever?
Also, good job guys on finally deciding on this thread... and also making it happen... shadow, you have a responsibility now...
And to joeypals, we're supposed to have a clan tourney that was going to get started on the 13th.. just reminding you in case you have forgotten even though the 13th was only two days ago... what's going to happen with that? also, I am available for a battle in like 20 mins when I finish training a tyranitar for my friend...
EDIT: I guess I didn't really look... sorry joey... I will get my battle done and over with soon... thanks...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
I agree it doesn't make sense as to why recruiting is closed for the summer reason, but it would make sense if recruiting was closed because it's too big. But since neither of us own the clan. We don't get that much say.xxashxx said:Members should still be allowed to join. This is a Temp Thread. Which means Shadoworganoid can test members that want to join the clan. Sure there will be less active members but the weekends are the time to be active here in the clan. It should not be too bad on weekends.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
Oh fine you guys.....
I'll open that again...
Oh fine you guys.....
I'll open that again...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Well... we were too big... and we still are really big and there's only so many members who actually post and are active... but there are also a few members who have left the clan... J99j, dialga master and others... plus shadow ice is banned and others that have different issues... For the most part there are only some members who are actually posting...
This being said, we should still not be recruiting because we are really big... but does that mean that we are going to turn down new members that are new to pokebeach for example? I don't think it should be like that... but it shouldn't be in the "recruiting" scale... anyways... I'm up for a battle guys... i need to try out new teams...
Well... we were too big... and we still are really big and there's only so many members who actually post and are active... but there are also a few members who have left the clan... J99j, dialga master and others... plus shadow ice is banned and others that have different issues... For the most part there are only some members who are actually posting...
This being said, we should still not be recruiting because we are really big... but does that mean that we are going to turn down new members that are new to pokebeach for example? I don't think it should be like that... but it shouldn't be in the "recruiting" scale... anyways... I'm up for a battle guys... i need to try out new teams...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Recruiting Closed until next summer.
Oh, I didn't mean for it to come out like that. I was just stating my opinion your the leader right now so you can choose what's what and all.shadoworganoid said:
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
No, its fine. I dont care either way.
No, its fine. I dont care either way.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Wow! It's been almost 3 hours since the last post. That's new, I'm still used to seeing a new page after I get off for a little while, but it's gonna be this slow through the school year.
Wow! It's been almost 3 hours since the last post. That's new, I'm still used to seeing a new page after I get off for a little while, but it's gonna be this slow through the school year.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
On a side note guys... being more focused here and talking about pokemon... one pokemon who I think is going to stand out in this next generation is definitely going to be: aggron!! that's right aggron!!! my gosh!! the thing is massively defensive and offensive!!! mach punch won't do anything to it because of its natural defensive prowess and with its new added stab HEAD SMASH, an 150 BP move that will not recoil it because it has rock head!! add in the fact that it can learn rock polish and it will effectively faster than the standard DD mence after a dragon dance and it will be faster than any DD gyarados!
So basically I'm saying that it's definitely gonna be a top choice in my team... when I actually get the game... if i do... LOL...
On a side note guys... being more focused here and talking about pokemon... one pokemon who I think is going to stand out in this next generation is definitely going to be: aggron!! that's right aggron!!! my gosh!! the thing is massively defensive and offensive!!! mach punch won't do anything to it because of its natural defensive prowess and with its new added stab HEAD SMASH, an 150 BP move that will not recoil it because it has rock head!! add in the fact that it can learn rock polish and it will effectively faster than the standard DD mence after a dragon dance and it will be faster than any DD gyarados!
So basically I'm saying that it's definitely gonna be a top choice in my team... when I actually get the game... if i do... LOL...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Bolded quote is incorrect. Adamant Aggron maxes at 199 Spe - 398 after a RP. You can beat ADAMANT Gyarados after a DD, but Jolly, along with even the outdated 270 Spe Salamence, can outspeed you still if they have a DD (405 Spe from that 270 Salamence, and 429 from Jolly Gyarados).
If you go Jolly then you hit 218 Spe (436 after a RP). That then outdoes all Gyarados, but you STILL don't ouspeed the new standard Salamence (which is max Spe Adamant as far as I know - 299 before DD, about 448 after 1).
Not that it's likely for the opponent to have 1 DD and you to have 1 RP at the same time, but w/e, facts speak for themselves.
But don't forget that going Jolly leaves you with a MAX Atk of 319 - even with a 150 BP STAB, that isn't exactly high, and anything that resists said STAB is going to be able to wall pretty much anything you do. This is a big problem, because key physical defenders such as Swampert and Hippowdon fall into that category, and they have strong STAB moves to beat you with. In UU there's always Hariyama or Registeel, although the former is preferred as it wields dangerous fighting STAB. I'd prove you wrong about Mach Punch not doing much as well since you don't invest in HP or Def at all on a RP set (4x weaks ALWAYS hurt, especially since if someone in going to use a priority move they generally invest in Atk), but I'll leave you with at least SOMETHING atm
lcristia said:
Bolded quote is incorrect. Adamant Aggron maxes at 199 Spe - 398 after a RP. You can beat ADAMANT Gyarados after a DD, but Jolly, along with even the outdated 270 Spe Salamence, can outspeed you still if they have a DD (405 Spe from that 270 Salamence, and 429 from Jolly Gyarados).
If you go Jolly then you hit 218 Spe (436 after a RP). That then outdoes all Gyarados, but you STILL don't ouspeed the new standard Salamence (which is max Spe Adamant as far as I know - 299 before DD, about 448 after 1).
Not that it's likely for the opponent to have 1 DD and you to have 1 RP at the same time, but w/e, facts speak for themselves.
But don't forget that going Jolly leaves you with a MAX Atk of 319 - even with a 150 BP STAB, that isn't exactly high, and anything that resists said STAB is going to be able to wall pretty much anything you do. This is a big problem, because key physical defenders such as Swampert and Hippowdon fall into that category, and they have strong STAB moves to beat you with. In UU there's always Hariyama or Registeel, although the former is preferred as it wields dangerous fighting STAB. I'd prove you wrong about Mach Punch not doing much as well since you don't invest in HP or Def at all on a RP set (4x weaks ALWAYS hurt, especially since if someone in going to use a priority move they generally invest in Atk), but I'll leave you with at least SOMETHING atm
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
LOL... well... First of all... I would like to say that I would absolutely love to take you up on that once I get my hands on the game...
Umm... wow... you have to be on point with the information here huh? wow... I was referring to the standard DD mence that carries an attack + nature and 176 Evs in speed... Obviously I was referring to that one Gamercal... i know how to work a calculator... and I know what outspeeds what... Both that salamence and the standard choice scarf + attack nature flygon need at least 220 speed EVs to at least force a speed tie... and obviously I'm not going to switch aggron in on any dragon dancing salamence... that would be just plain stupid...
Anyways... I'm just going to do a little bit of research here... I see you like situations... if this, if that... so let's play the situation game... the most powerful mach puncher in the game is breloom... and the standard breloom (252 at, 252 spe, 4 hp) cannot afford to switch into a choice banded and maybe life orbed head smash because it has a chance, with SR, to OHKO... while it will never ever OHKO with a mach punch... but I'm guessing you know that aggron can have more than two moves... so let's cover the possibilities... Double edge is worse... and yes I'm talking about an adamant max attack aggron... but a even with a jolly aggron, if it uses rock polish on the switch and an iron tail to hit breloom, it will annihilate the mushroom... Let's talk about those special brelooms that invest in HP and attack and not in speed and are out sped by the mentioned aggron without a rock polish boost... those are knocked out in two hits even with a non super effective Head Smash...
Adamant aggron can outspeed most hariyamas without a rock polish boost because of a speed tie and hariyamas need to spend more on defenses than speed anyways and 2KO the standard 80 Ev in HP 252 Def (449 HP, 240 Def) with iron tail if it switches in on one... that's pretty much about the most defensive it gets...
As for hippowdon, yes he does pose a threat... But even the most defensive hippowdon 252 HP, 168 Def (420 hp, 345 Def) can be 2 kod with well predicted aqua tails if used on the switch... you're a situational type of guy right? I'm talking about IF it was 350 attack adamant aggron here... Swampert will pose more of a threat, I will admit, it does resist both stabs and the only way to hit it super effectively is with a grass attack...
And come on... registeel? that thing can wall about anything not named specstran and it can even explode or hit tran with a 4x super effective earthquake... so that thing is a beast in itself... (I guess you want me to provide proof for that)... well I mean the regular tran cannot OHKO even with an overheat a max hp 411 sp def Registeel, while if the same min HP tran switched into stealth rocks, it's got a really good chance that it will be OHKOd with an earthquake from the same registeel... So registeel is a beast...
But back to aggron though... Infernape has mach punch and more terrible fighting attacks but it cannot switch into anything (double edge, aqua tail, HS) that is not iron tail...
By the way, I was talking about 2 aggrons the whole time if you didn't catch it... I was talking about jolly and adamant aggrons holding either a life orb in case they needed to use rock polish, or a choice band sometimes was in reference in case the counter pokemon was slower and didn't need to be rock polished on but just attacked straight away on the switch...
So are these enough facts for you? 'cause I like arguing...
I mean obviously every pokemon has a weakness or two... or maybe even 2 4x weaknesses LOL... but please don't start ranting just because I wasn't OVERLY SPECIFIC with what I posted... I mean if every post was like that then my gosh! I think you can understand what I mean...
gamercal said:Bolded quote is incorrect. Adamant Aggron maxes at 199 Spe - 398 after a RP. You can beat ADAMANT Gyarados after a DD, but Jolly, along with even the outdated 270 Spe Salamence, can outspeed you still if they have a DD (405 Spe from that 270 Salamence, and 429 from Jolly Gyarados).
If you go Jolly then you hit 218 Spe (436 after a RP). That then outdoes all Gyarados, but you STILL don't ouspeed the new standard Salamence (which is max Spe Adamant as far as I know - 299 before DD, about 448 after 1).
Not that it's likely for the opponent to have 1 DD and you to have 1 RP at the same time, but w/e, facts speak for themselves.
But don't forget that going Jolly leaves you with a MAX Atk of 319 - even with a 150 BP STAB, that isn't exactly high, and anything that resists said STAB is going to be able to wall pretty much anything you do. This is a big problem, because key physical defenders such as Swampert and Hippowdon fall into that category, and they have strong STAB moves to beat you with. In UU there's always Hariyama or Registeel, although the former is preferred as it wields dangerous fighting STAB. I'd prove you wrong about Mach Punch not doing much as well since you don't invest in HP or Def at all on a RP set (4x weaks ALWAYS hurt, especially since if someone in going to use a priority move they generally invest in Atk), but I'll leave you with at least SOMETHING atm
LOL... well... First of all... I would like to say that I would absolutely love to take you up on that once I get my hands on the game...
Umm... wow... you have to be on point with the information here huh? wow... I was referring to the standard DD mence that carries an attack + nature and 176 Evs in speed... Obviously I was referring to that one Gamercal... i know how to work a calculator... and I know what outspeeds what... Both that salamence and the standard choice scarf + attack nature flygon need at least 220 speed EVs to at least force a speed tie... and obviously I'm not going to switch aggron in on any dragon dancing salamence... that would be just plain stupid...
Anyways... I'm just going to do a little bit of research here... I see you like situations... if this, if that... so let's play the situation game... the most powerful mach puncher in the game is breloom... and the standard breloom (252 at, 252 spe, 4 hp) cannot afford to switch into a choice banded and maybe life orbed head smash because it has a chance, with SR, to OHKO... while it will never ever OHKO with a mach punch... but I'm guessing you know that aggron can have more than two moves... so let's cover the possibilities... Double edge is worse... and yes I'm talking about an adamant max attack aggron... but a even with a jolly aggron, if it uses rock polish on the switch and an iron tail to hit breloom, it will annihilate the mushroom... Let's talk about those special brelooms that invest in HP and attack and not in speed and are out sped by the mentioned aggron without a rock polish boost... those are knocked out in two hits even with a non super effective Head Smash...
Adamant aggron can outspeed most hariyamas without a rock polish boost because of a speed tie and hariyamas need to spend more on defenses than speed anyways and 2KO the standard 80 Ev in HP 252 Def (449 HP, 240 Def) with iron tail if it switches in on one... that's pretty much about the most defensive it gets...
As for hippowdon, yes he does pose a threat... But even the most defensive hippowdon 252 HP, 168 Def (420 hp, 345 Def) can be 2 kod with well predicted aqua tails if used on the switch... you're a situational type of guy right? I'm talking about IF it was 350 attack adamant aggron here... Swampert will pose more of a threat, I will admit, it does resist both stabs and the only way to hit it super effectively is with a grass attack...
And come on... registeel? that thing can wall about anything not named specstran and it can even explode or hit tran with a 4x super effective earthquake... so that thing is a beast in itself... (I guess you want me to provide proof for that)... well I mean the regular tran cannot OHKO even with an overheat a max hp 411 sp def Registeel, while if the same min HP tran switched into stealth rocks, it's got a really good chance that it will be OHKOd with an earthquake from the same registeel... So registeel is a beast...
But back to aggron though... Infernape has mach punch and more terrible fighting attacks but it cannot switch into anything (double edge, aqua tail, HS) that is not iron tail...
By the way, I was talking about 2 aggrons the whole time if you didn't catch it... I was talking about jolly and adamant aggrons holding either a life orb in case they needed to use rock polish, or a choice band sometimes was in reference in case the counter pokemon was slower and didn't need to be rock polished on but just attacked straight away on the switch...
So are these enough facts for you? 'cause I like arguing...
I mean obviously every pokemon has a weakness or two... or maybe even 2 4x weaknesses LOL... but please don't start ranting just because I wasn't OVERLY SPECIFIC with what I posted... I mean if every post was like that then my gosh! I think you can understand what I mean...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Alright, first rule of debating; Nothing is obvious.
You can't argue without coherency. Put up spreads that you are arguing WITH, and THEN provide the evidence you are claiming to hold. A basic example is that you cannot argue about 2 Aggron at the same time because both are entirely different (Jolly and Adamant are VERY different in speed terms). You need to take each one separately, otherwise it doesn't work.
I didn't rant about anything - I told you what you said was wrong, and why. Maybe you should TRY being more specific before you accuse others of pointing out flaws in your otherwise very broad (and often meaningless as a result) statements.
So, unlike your last post (which DOES bring some points up that look like they might work, but we'll see in time... it's difficult to really go through everything there though, since there's no focus in anything you put :S), I'm going to be a little more systematic. I could do with know exactly what moveset you're running here though... by the sounds of it it's RP/Head Smash/Aqua Tail/Iron Tail, with max Atk/Spe for both natures. Since that's what it SOUNDS like, but don't blame me if it's wrong since you haven't told me anything here. I'm going to assume that you're running LO on both of them for the purposes of this too.
Adamant Rock Polish Aggron:
After a single RP, this hits 398 Spe, as I mentioned before. You said your "standard" Salamence had 176 Spe EVs with a neutral nature (again, that isn't standard now, but just now that's irrelevant). Well guess what - those EVs hit 280 Spe. After a +1 boost, that give Salamence 420 Spe. 420 > 398, so your RP Aggron just got EQ'd and killed.
Let's not forget here that you have to use a turn to set up Rock Polish - this is the turn you're opponent is most likely to switch in (especially concerning things like Hippowdon, because of the thread of CB Head Smash). So you are highly UNLIKELY to be attacking anything on the switch when you think about it. But let's run some of these things through for the sake of the argument, shall we?
455 Atk Aggron (max Atk Adamant, factoring in Life Orb) vs 345 Def Hippowdon (the one you alluded to) using Aqua Tail results in 172-204 damage (40.95-48.97%). Where is the 2HKO here? With Leftovers not even having Stealth Rock down makes this a 2HKO... Hippowdon can then just Slack Off as you attack the second time to wear you down with LO recoil, or until you miss.
455 Atk Aggron vs 240 Def Hariyama (the one you alluded to) using Iron Tail results in 205-241 damage (45.66-53.67%). This is a better argument, but remember that there's two VERY big factors against you here:
1) You give up the turn of Rock Polish just to predict a switch in.
2) Iron Tail only have 75% accuracy, meaning you only have a 56.25% chance to hit twice in a row. This is much bigger than you might think, since unless you get the Def drop you aren't guaranteed to 2HKO by a long shot.
Even if you predict it, Hariyama could still live and potentially OHKO you with its fighting move of choice... 319 Atk Hariyama (172 Atk EVs, the standard with the defensive set you alluded to) vs 396 Def Aggron (min Def, since you have no investment in a sweeper Aggron) using Force Palm results in 217-255 damage (77.22 - 90.75%). If you switched into SR, attacking twice makes this a guaranteed OHKO if you hit and don't 2HKO. Even only hitting once makes it almost guaranteed to OHKO you. Remember that this is the WEAKEST Fighting attack Hariyama can run - anything strong will automatically OHKO you.
You didn't bother arguing Registeel (sensibly) so I can't comment on that.
Sure, Breloom and Infernape can't DIRECTLY switch in, but that isn't the point - they stop your sweep from being completed with Mach Punch.
394 Atk Breloom (max Atk Adamant, with no LO) vs 396 Def Aggron using Mach Punch results is 180-212 damage (64.06 - 75.44%). So if you take ANY damage in the previous turns (and let's face it, you have to set up Rock Polish, it's highly unlikely that you will take no damage here), you may as well kiss Aggron goodbye. This is assuming no Life Orb or Choice Band - CB especially will completely devastate Aggron. Infernape's Mach Punch is weaker, but I don't even need to do the calculations on the more useful Vacuum Wave to tell you that Aggron is gonna be OHKO'd by that, as it hits him on the completely exposed SpD stat. OR, worst case for you, Infernape could be Choice Scarved, and OHKO you with Close Combat instead.
Jolly RP Aggron:
Alright, so as I said in my last post this hits 436 Spe after a Rock Polish. THIS is enough to outspeed that "standard" Salamence that you alluded to earlier. But that spread is no longer standard, as Salamence has become so common that it very often has to sacrifice those HP EVs for even more Spe just to keep up with itself. So in reality Salamence runs max Spe almost always now (unless you have someone that's hung over on the old standards) - this means that it will always outdo you should you be in the situation of both having a speed boost (Choice Scarf?)
I've already proven above that the majority of cases you thought were 2HKO's aren't for ADAMANT, so I see no point in doing all of them again with 10% less offence. The one I WILL do is Hariyama, since that was a borderline case:
414 Atk Aggron (max Atk Jolly + LO) vs 240 Def Hariyama using Iron Tail results in 188-221 (41.87 - 49-22%). Oh dear... looks like you can never 2HKO Hariyama now unless SS plus SR is in play to negate the fat man's leftovers. And even then it's not 100%, so the issues of earlier on come back again.
I won't do Choice Band calcs atm because CB isn't the main set you were arguing (again, you can't argue as if you have everything at once because you don't), because although it WILL do a lot more for some of these calcs, it doesn't change the fact that the Rock Polish set isn't as perfect as you attempted to make it out to be in the previous post. That, and using CB leaves your Spe wide open for abuse by virtually anything, since you'll be much too slow to outspeed anything.
Next time be a bit more focused in the argument you are presenting, ok?
Alright, first rule of debating; Nothing is obvious.
You can't argue without coherency. Put up spreads that you are arguing WITH, and THEN provide the evidence you are claiming to hold. A basic example is that you cannot argue about 2 Aggron at the same time because both are entirely different (Jolly and Adamant are VERY different in speed terms). You need to take each one separately, otherwise it doesn't work.
I didn't rant about anything - I told you what you said was wrong, and why. Maybe you should TRY being more specific before you accuse others of pointing out flaws in your otherwise very broad (and often meaningless as a result) statements.
So, unlike your last post (which DOES bring some points up that look like they might work, but we'll see in time... it's difficult to really go through everything there though, since there's no focus in anything you put :S), I'm going to be a little more systematic. I could do with know exactly what moveset you're running here though... by the sounds of it it's RP/Head Smash/Aqua Tail/Iron Tail, with max Atk/Spe for both natures. Since that's what it SOUNDS like, but don't blame me if it's wrong since you haven't told me anything here. I'm going to assume that you're running LO on both of them for the purposes of this too.
Adamant Rock Polish Aggron:
After a single RP, this hits 398 Spe, as I mentioned before. You said your "standard" Salamence had 176 Spe EVs with a neutral nature (again, that isn't standard now, but just now that's irrelevant). Well guess what - those EVs hit 280 Spe. After a +1 boost, that give Salamence 420 Spe. 420 > 398, so your RP Aggron just got EQ'd and killed.
Let's not forget here that you have to use a turn to set up Rock Polish - this is the turn you're opponent is most likely to switch in (especially concerning things like Hippowdon, because of the thread of CB Head Smash). So you are highly UNLIKELY to be attacking anything on the switch when you think about it. But let's run some of these things through for the sake of the argument, shall we?
455 Atk Aggron (max Atk Adamant, factoring in Life Orb) vs 345 Def Hippowdon (the one you alluded to) using Aqua Tail results in 172-204 damage (40.95-48.97%). Where is the 2HKO here? With Leftovers not even having Stealth Rock down makes this a 2HKO... Hippowdon can then just Slack Off as you attack the second time to wear you down with LO recoil, or until you miss.
455 Atk Aggron vs 240 Def Hariyama (the one you alluded to) using Iron Tail results in 205-241 damage (45.66-53.67%). This is a better argument, but remember that there's two VERY big factors against you here:
1) You give up the turn of Rock Polish just to predict a switch in.
2) Iron Tail only have 75% accuracy, meaning you only have a 56.25% chance to hit twice in a row. This is much bigger than you might think, since unless you get the Def drop you aren't guaranteed to 2HKO by a long shot.
Even if you predict it, Hariyama could still live and potentially OHKO you with its fighting move of choice... 319 Atk Hariyama (172 Atk EVs, the standard with the defensive set you alluded to) vs 396 Def Aggron (min Def, since you have no investment in a sweeper Aggron) using Force Palm results in 217-255 damage (77.22 - 90.75%). If you switched into SR, attacking twice makes this a guaranteed OHKO if you hit and don't 2HKO. Even only hitting once makes it almost guaranteed to OHKO you. Remember that this is the WEAKEST Fighting attack Hariyama can run - anything strong will automatically OHKO you.
You didn't bother arguing Registeel (sensibly) so I can't comment on that.
Sure, Breloom and Infernape can't DIRECTLY switch in, but that isn't the point - they stop your sweep from being completed with Mach Punch.
394 Atk Breloom (max Atk Adamant, with no LO) vs 396 Def Aggron using Mach Punch results is 180-212 damage (64.06 - 75.44%). So if you take ANY damage in the previous turns (and let's face it, you have to set up Rock Polish, it's highly unlikely that you will take no damage here), you may as well kiss Aggron goodbye. This is assuming no Life Orb or Choice Band - CB especially will completely devastate Aggron. Infernape's Mach Punch is weaker, but I don't even need to do the calculations on the more useful Vacuum Wave to tell you that Aggron is gonna be OHKO'd by that, as it hits him on the completely exposed SpD stat. OR, worst case for you, Infernape could be Choice Scarved, and OHKO you with Close Combat instead.
Jolly RP Aggron:
Alright, so as I said in my last post this hits 436 Spe after a Rock Polish. THIS is enough to outspeed that "standard" Salamence that you alluded to earlier. But that spread is no longer standard, as Salamence has become so common that it very often has to sacrifice those HP EVs for even more Spe just to keep up with itself. So in reality Salamence runs max Spe almost always now (unless you have someone that's hung over on the old standards) - this means that it will always outdo you should you be in the situation of both having a speed boost (Choice Scarf?)
I've already proven above that the majority of cases you thought were 2HKO's aren't for ADAMANT, so I see no point in doing all of them again with 10% less offence. The one I WILL do is Hariyama, since that was a borderline case:
414 Atk Aggron (max Atk Jolly + LO) vs 240 Def Hariyama using Iron Tail results in 188-221 (41.87 - 49-22%). Oh dear... looks like you can never 2HKO Hariyama now unless SS plus SR is in play to negate the fat man's leftovers. And even then it's not 100%, so the issues of earlier on come back again.
I won't do Choice Band calcs atm because CB isn't the main set you were arguing (again, you can't argue as if you have everything at once because you don't), because although it WILL do a lot more for some of these calcs, it doesn't change the fact that the Rock Polish set isn't as perfect as you attempted to make it out to be in the previous post. That, and using CB leaves your Spe wide open for abuse by virtually anything, since you'll be much too slow to outspeed anything.
Next time be a bit more focused in the argument you are presenting, ok?
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
What are all the new moves every pokemon can learn in HG/SS? I haven't been able to find a correct list...
What are all the new moves every pokemon can learn in HG/SS? I haven't been able to find a correct list...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61025 <-----@ Pikamaster.
I genually think people will see how good octillery is now. A second look at him on smogon, and you can see him as the best, most unexpected scizor counter ever! And now he gets water spout for added wows..
Octillery gets so many different moves! Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Ice Beam / Blizzard / Icy Wind. Charge Beam. Energy Ball. Flash Cannon. Surf / Water Spout. Sludge Bomb. Signal Beam. And of course any type you want in Hidden Power.
It's physical moveset aint bad either, you have waterfall, Rock Blast, Double Edge, Facade, Gunk Shot, Payback, Seed Bomb ETCETC.
It can even pull off EndureSalacFlail (Though not too well). And is very anoying with Sub, Protect, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Possibly Supersonic and lots of other nice moves.
Octillery is surely the best and unexpected scizor counter. Who expects a water type with flamethrower in a battle? HECK, who expects octillery in a battle!?
This thing works great for Trick Room teams as well. Meaning that He can KO SCizor with flamethrower before he gets a chance to nearly KO with Bug Bite.
I have learnt this from experience from a battle the other day. A bullet Punch and an X-Scissor from my max atk scizor failed to KO an octillery with max hp and no def investments. Maybe it would be possible to KO with Bug Bite, after a Bullet Punch when it switches in.... But if it has 252hp / 40def / 216spatk on a trick room set? I see it Dealing with Scizor 99.9% of the time. Obviously people would learn from this, expect flamethrower and switch to heatrans etc. But this has got to be the best way to counter scizors. Most/All Scizors will switch out when faced with Gyarados, But not many are gonna switch out on an octillery. They can just x-scissor / bug bite to do alot of damage to it, expecting water spout to now do low damage, and then getting flamethrowered.
I seriously think this as a better counter then Magnezone and many other scizor counters. And of course with sniper or suction cups, he works great if you are a hax magnet or on a baton pass team.
Taking this into account, i think that octillerys usage will fly high up the forthcoming month and i SERIOUSLY doubt this guy will stay NU (Yeah i know, OMG!!!1!1!111! Right?) for very long. I say UU/BL.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61025 <-----@ Pikamaster.
I genually think people will see how good octillery is now. A second look at him on smogon, and you can see him as the best, most unexpected scizor counter ever! And now he gets water spout for added wows..
Octillery gets so many different moves! Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Ice Beam / Blizzard / Icy Wind. Charge Beam. Energy Ball. Flash Cannon. Surf / Water Spout. Sludge Bomb. Signal Beam. And of course any type you want in Hidden Power.
It's physical moveset aint bad either, you have waterfall, Rock Blast, Double Edge, Facade, Gunk Shot, Payback, Seed Bomb ETCETC.
It can even pull off EndureSalacFlail (Though not too well). And is very anoying with Sub, Protect, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Possibly Supersonic and lots of other nice moves.
Octillery is surely the best and unexpected scizor counter. Who expects a water type with flamethrower in a battle? HECK, who expects octillery in a battle!?
This thing works great for Trick Room teams as well. Meaning that He can KO SCizor with flamethrower before he gets a chance to nearly KO with Bug Bite.
I have learnt this from experience from a battle the other day. A bullet Punch and an X-Scissor from my max atk scizor failed to KO an octillery with max hp and no def investments. Maybe it would be possible to KO with Bug Bite, after a Bullet Punch when it switches in.... But if it has 252hp / 40def / 216spatk on a trick room set? I see it Dealing with Scizor 99.9% of the time. Obviously people would learn from this, expect flamethrower and switch to heatrans etc. But this has got to be the best way to counter scizors. Most/All Scizors will switch out when faced with Gyarados, But not many are gonna switch out on an octillery. They can just x-scissor / bug bite to do alot of damage to it, expecting water spout to now do low damage, and then getting flamethrowered.
I seriously think this as a better counter then Magnezone and many other scizor counters. And of course with sniper or suction cups, he works great if you are a hax magnet or on a baton pass team.
Taking this into account, i think that octillerys usage will fly high up the forthcoming month and i SERIOUSLY doubt this guy will stay NU (Yeah i know, OMG!!!1!1!111! Right?) for very long. I say UU/BL.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
LOL... Oh yeah... I kinda forgot to mention Sand storm that I included in all my calcs... because that is the only way to OHKO a breloom with a double edge. You know, you actually forgot to mention the most powerful mach punch in the game in a technician mach punch from a hitmontop. that would really ruin it...
Gamercal, I want you to find me a moveset on a pokemon that is perfect in every single way and cannot possibly be countered... I mean seriously... Everything is "counterable" with good prediction even Deoxys-A... All I said in my post was the fact that aggron is going to rip threads in the next gen with its new gift in Head smash... Not that it was perfect in every way... and it could handle a lot of its counters within the right situation...
Now, i think you pretty much covered the majority of the calculations... but you were also pretty situational in your arguments referring to if many things happen like if it takes any damage on previous turns or something of the sort... I guess you were too focused on trying to be the master of the calculator and missed the whole point of the argument... which was that the possibility is there for it to do damage and to also even KO the counters that you placed up (except for swampert... and I guess Hippo even though I did mention choice band because that's the only way to KO it)
Oh and about registeel, the max HP, 0 def, 156 def, 100 att careful tank is always 2KOd by a max attack EQ never mind Superpower or focus punch... and although a max hp 88 def regi may not be 2KOd by earthquake, it has a good chance of getting killed by a superpower... all moves that aggron can carry...
LOL... Oh yeah... I kinda forgot to mention Sand storm that I included in all my calcs... because that is the only way to OHKO a breloom with a double edge. You know, you actually forgot to mention the most powerful mach punch in the game in a technician mach punch from a hitmontop. that would really ruin it...
Gamercal, I want you to find me a moveset on a pokemon that is perfect in every single way and cannot possibly be countered... I mean seriously... Everything is "counterable" with good prediction even Deoxys-A... All I said in my post was the fact that aggron is going to rip threads in the next gen with its new gift in Head smash... Not that it was perfect in every way... and it could handle a lot of its counters within the right situation...
Now, i think you pretty much covered the majority of the calculations... but you were also pretty situational in your arguments referring to if many things happen like if it takes any damage on previous turns or something of the sort... I guess you were too focused on trying to be the master of the calculator and missed the whole point of the argument... which was that the possibility is there for it to do damage and to also even KO the counters that you placed up (except for swampert... and I guess Hippo even though I did mention choice band because that's the only way to KO it)
Oh and about registeel, the max HP, 0 def, 156 def, 100 att careful tank is always 2KOd by a max attack EQ never mind Superpower or focus punch... and although a max hp 88 def regi may not be 2KOd by earthquake, it has a good chance of getting killed by a superpower... all moves that aggron can carry...
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