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RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
anyone want to battle...i need to get my game ready..
anyone want to battle...i need to get my game ready..
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
How about this, I'm better than all of you put together.=P Not really, but I have beaten everyone in the clan that I've battled... I still need to battle you Shadoworganoid, you and Echosone.
How about this, I'm better than all of you put together.=P Not really, but I have beaten everyone in the clan that I've battled... I still need to battle you Shadoworganoid, you and Echosone.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Ok, let's break this one down one step at a time (comments will be in bold):
OK, now that that is out of the way, I have to ask you something. Why did you ignore my request for the moveset you were using in your arguments? Based on the last post as well, your Aggron now has Rock Polish/Aqua Tail/Iron Tail/Double-Edge/Head Smash/Earthquake/Superpower/Focus Punch, with both a Choice Band and a Life Orb. You seriously need to make up your mind about exactly what you are using to argue Aggron's case with, because the above is simply ridiculous, and it's very difficult to take anyone seriously when they don't even know themselves what they are arguing.
For the record, I'm not belittling what Aggron CAN do. I KNOW it could be very destructive, that much is obvious from having a 150 BP STAB move coming from 110 base Atk. However, it DOES have very clear counters, and unlike say Salamence or Infernape it has a very hard time in getting past them, since none of what it can do is really strong enough to fell them before he dies himself.
Those weaknesses and low initial Spe are also huge problems that will probably be enough to keep him out of contention (Fighting/Ground/Water are three of THE most common attacking types ever, and all of them ruin Aggron. Fighting/Ground undermine his huge Def by being 4x weaks, and Water is normally a special attacking type. SS helps the latter, but it's not enough by itself...). It can do some damage, but it's not something that will win games.
"Argument" is the wrong word. I at least see it as a debate as opposed to an argument. But yes, it's this type of discussion that the forum as a whole should really be aiming for, as it's actually intelligible (unlike "omg battul me!!2" "OMG ALRIGHT!!")
Octillery is NU for a reason - it's far too slow, and can't plough through walls very easily. It needs so much team support that half a team is dedicated to it, and that is one of the easiest ways to lose in Pokémon. Maybe you should try being a little more realistic with what you are claiming before you make a fool of yourself like this again.
Ok, let's break this one down one step at a time (comments will be in bold):
lcristia said:LOL... Oh yeah... I kinda forgot to mention Sand storm that I included in all my calcs...
This is yet another reason why you aren't doing well in this debate - you aren't providing any information at all. First you didn't even tell me what type of Aggron it was you were using (Rock Polish in itself is not enough), then you don't tell me anything about its moveset (you still haven't), THEN you forget to mention SS in all of your matches? Anything ELSE you want to tell me?
because that is the only way to OHKO a breloom with a double edge.
I never ran any defensive calculation on Breloom because it shouldn't be switching in to an attack in the first place. But this is good to know - however, do you need Adamant as well as SS to OHKO? Do you need CB over LO? You really need to give more details here, because that statement isn't very helpful without the parameters that achieve that KO.
However, whilst you briefly mentioned Double-Edge in your previous post, you didn't seem keen on the idea of using it. EXACTLY what moves are you using? If you don't give me a moveset that you are basing your arguments on, many of said arguments are going to fail. We all know that if you use Rock Polish, you have exactly three attacks. Head Smash is obvious. You mentioned Aqua Tail as a strong option, and for some reason you wanted Iron Tail (Iron Head is better IMO, especially with the Spe from RP). So where does Double-Edge fit? If you turn round and say "oh, that's on the CB set obviously", then your argument is completely flawed, because CB is not the set under scrutiny here.
You know, you actually forgot to mention the most powerful mach punch in the game in a technician mach punch from a hitmontop. that would really ruin it...
I felt that this wasn't necessary to mention. But since you HAVE, thanks for making my side even stronger by providing another check/counter. A UU one at that, which is always helpful... since Aggron really needs to get past UU if it is to be remotely successful in OU.
Gamercal, I want you to find me a moveset on a pokemon that is perfect in every single way and cannot possibly be countered... I mean seriously... Everything is "counterable" with good prediction even Deoxys-A...
Obviously. Nothing is perfect (especially Deo-A; priority anyone?), so that is one thing I obviously cannot do.
All I said in my post was the fact that aggron is going to rip threads in the next gen with its new gift in Head smash...
No it wasn't. What you did was say that and then gave false facts about what it could do. It cannot necessarily outspeed Salamence and Gyarados like you said it could (which is why we are even here in the first place), and it cannot achieve many of the 2HKO's that you said it could in your second-last post either. I despise misinformation, since it's often hard enough to understand Pokémon as it is without telling people things that are wrong. I corrected what you said that was wrong, and you've gone all defensive on the matter as a result. Which is fine by me of course, since it's not my place to tell you you can't defend what you've said. But as a strategist on the forums it is MY place to provide the forums with knowledge, and correct people when they are wrong (with evidence to back it up). If you don't LIKE that, I suggest you do a little more research into things before making outlandish statements.
Not that it was perfect in every way... and it could handle a lot of its counters within the right situation...
How so? I'd love to know how a Rock Polish Aggron is supposed to handle its counters after the calculations above proved that it's can't do very much to many of them at all. Running a different set normally means it will have different counters, and is therefore irrelevant to how a ROCK POLISH one is going to beat its counters.
Now, I think you pretty much covered the majority of the calculations... but you were also pretty situational in your arguments referring to if many things happen like if it takes any damage on previous turns or something of the sort...
The point is that you have to take a turn to set up Rock Polish, as well as another turn to switch Aggron in somewhere (unless you wait until something dies). These turns will see the opponent either switch to a counter (at which point it comes in untouched) or attack you and damage you as you set up. If it's the latter, that's where my "situational" damage comes in. If it's the FORMER, then that's where my defensive damage calculations come in, as the majority of opposition you will face will then be at 100% HP, and I've already shown you that's it's impossible to 2HKO most of them.
I guess you were too focused on trying to be the master of the calculator and missed the whole point of the argument... which was that the possibility is there for it to do damage and to also even KO the counters that you placed up (except for swampert... and I guess Hippo even though I did mention choice band because that's the only way to KO it)
I didn't miss the point of anything. EVERYTHING is capable of DAMAGING their counters - Gengar is capable of damaging Blissey, Jolteon is capable of damaging Tyranitar. The REAL point is that it isn't capable of THREATENING them - if you do 50% to an opponent and they KO you, who is better off?
As I already said, you can't argue for CB when you are talking about a RP set, because the two are completely different. Aggron's CB set has an entirely different EV spread too, so many of my damage calcs against it would be less significant (percentage wise at least since it's normally max HP that's used). Even then, you'd have to have insane prediction skills (or complete knowledge of the opponent's team) to be able to say "oh, Hippo's coming in, I need to use Aqua Tail!", but I guess that really isn't the point. Prediction is a rather shallow argument though - remember that you'r opponent can predict too.
Oh and about registeel, the max HP, 0 def, 156 def, 100 att careful tank is always 2KOd by a max attack EQ never mind Superpower or focus punch...
Ok, so NO DEFENCE Registeel is 2HKO'd when using Adamant and LO, I can concede that one. But I had to personally check this, becuase again you didn't provide enough details. At LEAST tell me what you're using in these things.
Also, Focus Punch is insanely stupid to run on Aggron that doesn't use Substitute (which in turn can't RP due to no moveslots really to spare), and Superpower is 33% weaker after the first use... although with the initial 20% extra power it would still 2HKO, it's a bad move to even think about using here. It does at least 2HKO though, so I won't bother much with that one.
If Aggron got popular though, you can bet that many Registeel would change to more physically defensive spreads to nullify many of the above issues.
and although a max hp 88 def regi may not be 2KOd by earthquake, it has a good chance of getting killed by a superpower... all moves that aggron can carry...
Same point as above - Superpower is a very poor option on Aggron, as it lowers its only two good stats (Atk and Def).
OK, now that that is out of the way, I have to ask you something. Why did you ignore my request for the moveset you were using in your arguments? Based on the last post as well, your Aggron now has Rock Polish/Aqua Tail/Iron Tail/Double-Edge/Head Smash/Earthquake/Superpower/Focus Punch, with both a Choice Band and a Life Orb. You seriously need to make up your mind about exactly what you are using to argue Aggron's case with, because the above is simply ridiculous, and it's very difficult to take anyone seriously when they don't even know themselves what they are arguing.
For the record, I'm not belittling what Aggron CAN do. I KNOW it could be very destructive, that much is obvious from having a 150 BP STAB move coming from 110 base Atk. However, it DOES have very clear counters, and unlike say Salamence or Infernape it has a very hard time in getting past them, since none of what it can do is really strong enough to fell them before he dies himself.
Those weaknesses and low initial Spe are also huge problems that will probably be enough to keep him out of contention (Fighting/Ground/Water are three of THE most common attacking types ever, and all of them ruin Aggron. Fighting/Ground undermine his huge Def by being 4x weaks, and Water is normally a special attacking type. SS helps the latter, but it's not enough by itself...). It can do some damage, but it's not something that will win games.
urahara_hat said:
"Argument" is the wrong word. I at least see it as a debate as opposed to an argument. But yes, it's this type of discussion that the forum as a whole should really be aiming for, as it's actually intelligible (unlike "omg battul me!!2" "OMG ALRIGHT!!")
PMJfan001 said:I genually think people will see how good octillery is now. A second look at him on smogon, and you can see him as the best, most unexpected scizor counter ever! And now he gets water spout for added wows..
Octillery isn't a good Scizor counter really... let's see, Scizor's primary move is U-Turn, and Choice Band U-Turn (591 Atk, assuming max Atk Scizor) to min Def Octillery does 161-189 damage (45.48 - 53.39%). Given that Scizor THEN gets to switch out as well, and it's really not a good counter. Maybe if it's locked into Bullet Punch, but so many things are better then (Heatran is one) that it's hardly the BEST like you say it is.
Octillery gets so many different moves! Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Ice Beam / Blizzard / Icy Wind. Charge Beam. Energy Ball. Flash Cannon. Surf / Water Spout. Sludge Bomb. Signal Beam. And of course any type you want in Hidden Power.
Water Spout actually needs speed to use effectively, don't you think? Octillery has a grand total of 45 base Spe... that's even slower than Aggron
It's physical moveset aint bad either, you have waterfall, Rock Blast, Double Edge, Facade, Gunk Shot, Payback, Seed Bomb ETCETC.
Eh, again, most of these are pretty useless. Double Edge? Gunk Shot? (Smogon lists it, but it's REALLY not good...). Payback?
It can even pull off EndureSalacFlail (Though not too well) No it can't, it has no Spe to do this. And is very anoying with Sub, Protect, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Possibly Supersonic and lots of other nice moves. ANYTHING is annoying with Sub/Protect/Status. This is nothing new. Supersonic is completely useless outside of Gravity anyhow, and Confusion isn't even that amazing to begin with since it's easy to switch out on.
Octillery is surely the best and unexpected scizor counter. Don't kid yourself, Octillery only resists Bullet Punch, and everything else eats it alive. Who expects a water type with flamethrower in a battle? HECK, who expects octillery in a battle!? Granted
This thing works great for Trick Room teams as well. Meaning that He can KO SCizor with flamethrower before he gets a chance to nearly KO with Bug Bite. Trick Room is a bit of a poor option in singles TBH, but I can see your point here. Switch Octillery into anything except Bullet Punch though is going to seriously hurt.
I have learnt this from experience from a battle the other day. A bullet Punch and an X-Scissor from my max atk scizor failed to KO an octillery with max hp and no def investments.
Not THAT impressive. I mean come on, why would you use bullet Punch on a Water type? Maybe if you played Scizor better it wouldn't have lost in that manner -_-
Maybe it would be possible to KO with Bug Bite, after a Bullet Punch when it switches in.... But if it has 252hp / 40def / 216spatk on a trick room set? I see it Dealing with Scizor 99.9% of the time.
Anyone who is even remotely good at the game clearly wouldn't stay in to take a strong special hit with Scizor, so I don't see your point here. Also, the majority of Scizor use U-Turn, which renders all of this useless.
Obviously people would learn from this, expect flamethrower and switch to heatrans etc. But this has got to be the best way to counter scizors. Most/All Scizors will switch out when faced with Gyarados, But not many are gonna switch out on an octillery.
If they didn't U-Turn, they will look at the damage they dealt and either KO you (if they can) or switch (if they can't), as Scizor could do without taking special hits.
They can just x-scissor / bug bite to do alot of damage to it, expecting water spout to now do low damage, and then getting flamethrowered. Water Spout is the least of an opponent's worries, and Octillery shouldn't be using that move cause it can't do so at all well.
I seriously think this as a better counter then Magnezone and many other scizor counters. And of course with sniper or suction cups, he works great if you are a hax magnet or on a baton pass team.
Don't kid yourself. Octillery is never going to be a better counter to Scizor than something which STOPS IT SWITCHING and OHKO's it. lcrista is at least somewhat believable - this argument is downright stupid, and not even a beginner would claim such things.
Taking this into account, I think that octillerys usage will fly high up the forthcoming month and I SERIOUSLY doubt this guy will stay NU (Yeah I know, OMG!1!1!111! Right?) for very long. I say UU/BL.
Octillery is NU for a reason - it's far too slow, and can't plough through walls very easily. It needs so much team support that half a team is dedicated to it, and that is one of the easiest ways to lose in Pokémon. Maybe you should try being a little more realistic with what you are claiming before you make a fool of yourself like this again.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Gamer is right.And It's called Thunderbolt.Even if it's as strong as you claim it's speed leaves it Defenceless.A 2HKO from My max Sp.atk Azelf only due to stab.Pobubly it could even be a 1HKO.
Gamer is right.And It's called Thunderbolt.Even if it's as strong as you claim it's speed leaves it Defenceless.A 2HKO from My max Sp.atk Azelf only due to stab.Pobubly it could even be a 1HKO.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Hey guys. I just finished Breeding a Swampter.
Heres what I have:
Relaxed Nature.
EV's: 252 Def, 50 atk, 4 SpD, 202 Hp.
Stats:
HP: 391
Atk: 266
Def: 306
SpA: 204
SpD: 217
Speed: 130
Moves: Counter/Rest
Stealth Rock/Sleep Talk
Avalanch
Refresh
He's a really good endurace pokemon so.....yeah... I figure with avalanch, he's going to be attacking second anyways, so why not use a 120 power move then?
Gamercal, what do you think? What are better moves for an endurace set up?
Hey guys. I just finished Breeding a Swampter.
Heres what I have:
Relaxed Nature.
EV's: 252 Def, 50 atk, 4 SpD, 202 Hp.
Stats:
HP: 391
Atk: 266
Def: 306
SpA: 204
SpD: 217
Speed: 130
Moves: Counter/Rest
Stealth Rock/Sleep Talk
Avalanch
Refresh
He's a really good endurace pokemon so.....yeah... I figure with avalanch, he's going to be attacking second anyways, so why not use a 120 power move then?
Gamercal, what do you think? What are better moves for an endurace set up?
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. Won the War with TA unless they respond...
Okay... I'm going to break your argument down now... Come on gamercal! moveset? the reason why I ignored the question about moveset was because just like you may use different movesets on the same pokemon that you have, this aggron might also use different movesets. I think you keep missing the point which is that aggron has different possibilities. It might as well have aerial ace and OHKO any breloom horribly... It is an option which someone might consider if they constantly have a problem with brelooms. I think you just don't want to understand because you want to be correct. Just like aggron might meet all its friends that might be able to counter it in the same match, they might meet him with a super effective move on them. The movesets may change but the main point, again, is that it might have all the options.
And the New counters that you mentioned don't make sense... If we go by the definition of a counter which is something that can SAFELY switch in and immediately pose a threat/Kill it, then these are not counters. I mean not even the max speed Salamence can outrun aggron if it switches in as Aggron RPs, and it will get killed by a super effective HS right before it actually has a chance to DD. So how is that a counter to my set? And even though Infernape can hit first once it is in, Infernape has to be very weary of switching in to anything not named Iron tail/iron head. And said Salamence has to be weary of switching into a Head smash as well... And don't even bother discussing this or arguing its validity because even without SR it will be KOd even after intimidate... let me explain. A 241 def Max (394) HP physically bulky Salamence will be done 374-440 damage even after an intimidate which is 94.92%-111.67% without SR making this a 69.67% chance to OHKO. And this is coming from a jolly Life orbed Aggron. Infernape Should not even Think about switching into an Aggron because with a Head smash, it will be over before it gets the right footing in. Never mind firing a Vaccum wave. And yes this is a valid argument because Smogon Always posts "X pokemon is a counter, though it must be weary of switching into X move". So how are these counters?
"Those weaknesses and low initial Spe are also huge problems that will probably be enough to keep him out of contention (Fighting/Ground/Water are three of THE most common attacking types ever, and all of them ruin Aggron. Fighting/Ground undermine his huge Def by being 4x weaks, and Water is normally a special attacking type. SS helps the latter, but it's not enough by itself...). ."
Like I said, Everything has a weakness and even some beginning trainers know when to switch out or when to let something die.
"It can do some damage, but it's not something that will win games"
I disagree... A team that's not prepared for it can be caught off guard. As with anything that is not prepared for things. And even if they switch to their brelooms even for the revenge kill, we already know what can happen.
See the thing is that you forget that the problem you had with my initial argument was about it not being able to outrun salamence, which you must have known what type of salamence I meant because you mentioned "the new salamence" meaning you acknowledged that there was an old one. Therefore you posted for the sake of arguing against my logic. And THEN you came up to list counters to it. Now, I never said that it is not counterable, but that it is a beast basically.
Moving on...
"I never ran any defensive calculation on Breloom because it shouldn't be switching in to an attack in the first place."
Well, then it's not exactly a counter is it? it is a revenge killer. Which there are plenty of those in the game.
"However, whilst you briefly mentioned Double-Edge in your previous post, you didn't seem keen on the idea of using it. EXACTLY what moves are you using? If you don't give me a moveset that you are basing your arguments on, many of said arguments are going to fail. We all know that if you use Rock Polish, you have exactly three attacks. Head Smash is obvious. You mentioned Aqua Tail as a strong option, and for some reason you wanted Iron Tail (Iron Head is better IMO, especially with the Spe from RP).
In my original post I didn't bother to list any specific moveset because obviously it has a lot of options. Just like Salamence cannot Kill everyone with ONE specific moveset or set of attacks, you cannot possibly expect an aggron to have a specific moveset. Rock polish will be there i guess for the sake of the debate since I did mention it on the original post as well as max attack, speed, head smash and life orb. but that leaves a couple of more options including a nature option and 2 more filler moves. On a given day I might have one moveset and on another given day I might have another moveset on it... it is my choice and it is a smart choice in order to be less predictable or if I see brelooms raping it constantly. Iron head is a little better in some situations, but is less powerful so in THIS case it is not better because it doesn't give the power output that is needed. But it's not likely that I will use it because of its inaccuracy, but again, I wasn't listing a specific moveset if you haven't gotten it yet. I was listing options. And who knows? maybe I will place it in there one day because I see that it is vital in order to KO many of the fighting types that might counter it while, yes I know, i will be taking the risk of inaccuracy.
"So where does Double-Edge fit? If you turn round and say "oh, that's on the CB set obviously", then your argument is completely flawed, because CB is not the set under scrutiny here."
Again, I think I already covered this.
"I felt that this wasn't necessary to mention. But since you HAVE, thanks for making my side even stronger by providing another check/counter Toungue. "
Man gamercal, it's alright to admit if you missed something. No one in this world is perfect although you try to be.
"A UU one at that, which is always helpful... since Aggron really needs to get past UU if it is to be remotely successful in OU"
Well actually having a UU counter doesn't mean that you can't be in OU since one of some Salamence's greatest counter is Porygon2 which is UU. I know because I have one and it works wonders.
"Obviously. Nothing is perfect (especially Deo-A; priority anyone?), so that is one thing I obviously cannot do."
LOL... I'm just going to counter this one with one of your lines... actually the first line that you placed in your counter argument.
"Alright, first rule of debating; Nothing is obvious."-Gamercal, 2 pages ago.
"No it wasn't. What you did was say that and then gave false facts about what it could do. It cannot necessarily outspeed Salamence and Gyarados like you said it could (which is why we are even here in the first place), and it cannot achieve many of the 2HKO's that you said it could in your second-last post either. I despise misinformation, since it's often hard enough to understand Pokémon as it is without telling people things that are wrong. I corrected what you said that was wrong, and you've gone all defensive on the matter as a result. Which is fine by me of course, since it's not my place to tell you you can't defend what you've said. But as a strategist on the forums it is MY place to provide the forums with knowledge, and correct people when they are wrong (with evidence to back it up). If you don't LIKE that, I suggest you do a little more research into things before making outlandish statements."
Well, you are right on that one except that I didn't say that it could outspeed gyarados and salamence after a DD. I said that it could outspeed SOME salamence which we already deduced that you knew which salamence I was talking about. And yes, it actually could outrun all gyarados. I'm talking jolly, LO, max speed, Rock polish.
Also, my original argument wasn't that it could kill the counters. Just that it was a beast. You were the one that came up with a list of counters and then I came up with a way for my aggron to actually KO them. and like I said I didn't even discuss aerial ace for breloom. And following the pattern of situations that you have placed, IF Hariyama doesn't focus EVs on Def then it cannot be a potential counter. Like say the player bluffs a counter with Hariyama to scare it out, but instead it gets hit with an Stab HS on the switch, a jolly, LO, max attack head smash will knock out up to 253 HP which can be potentially a 2KO and most likely it will be if the hariyama doesn't have 252HP evs which players don't usually place on it...
"How so? I'd love to know how a Rock Polish Aggron is supposed to handle its counters after the calculations above proved that it's can't do very much to many of them at all. Running a different set normally means it will have different counters, and is therefore irrelevant to how a ROCK POLISH one is going to beat its counters."
WHAT? you mentioned if the aggron had recieved previous damage but what about if its counters have received previous damage? I mean many of those close calls that are 2KOs or 3KOs are easily turned into OHKOs and 2KOs with like 10% damage. Like if breloom or hariyama have received 10% previous damage, then they could be OHKOd and 2KOd respectively by a life orbed Iron tail. Dealing from 229-270 damage to breloom without defense evs and from 206-242 damage to hariyama. The mighty Hippowdon at max (420) HP and 345 def (168 Def Evs) cannot switch into it with 10% off its life off as it will have a slight chance of being 2KOd by a LO, Jolly, Max attack (415 attack total) aqua tail if it has received at least 12% damage. Check it out, it deals from 158-186 damage which over the course of 2 turns becomes at most 372 damage. You call this "not doing very much at all"?! I think we can both agree that 10-12% damage initially is nothing at all and could be healed with 2 turns of leftovers. And this is without the hippo doing anything to it... I place this example because you've been talking about counters being at 100% yet you also refer to Aggron having taken some damage previously. But yet you know that there are different type of movesets made for stages of battle; Lead, early game, Mid game, and Late game. So this is perfectly viable.
"The point is that you have to take a turn to set up Rock Polish, as well as another turn to switch Aggron in somewhere (unless you wait until something dies). These turns will see the opponent either switch to a counter (at which point it comes in untouched) or attack you and damage you as you set up. If it's the latter, that's where my "situational" damage comes in. If it's the FORMER, then that's where my defensive damage calculations come in, as the majority of opposition you will face will then be at 100% HP, and I've already shown you that's it's impossible to 2HKO most of them."
And that's a major flaw in your reasoning... You know you can't assume anything in pokemon. Just because I have rock polish on my aggron doesn't mean that I HAVE to use it first turn. What IF i have seen your Hippo previously because you took it out against my Salamence per se, and it did take some damage... I take out my aggron and I know you're going to switch out to hippo because it's the best thing you got. (I mean even some of the novice battlers know that this is something that's very reasonable to do). I use aqua tail because I know that 1. I'm faster and don't need a boost and 2. I know I can KO you. What IF that happens? I could potentially use it as a late game. And I could've also taken it out before and it could have received some or even major damage. you still can't KO because you don't get a chance to attack. So come on. if they are at 100% then fine. But that doesn't mean that 1. Aggron cannot be a useful beast and 2. I cannot be smart and just switch out to suicune predicting the earthquake.
I'm not going to discuss the two paragraphs you posted because i just don't feel like it. But about your statement:
"Same point as above - Superpower is a very poor option on Aggron, as it lowers its only two good stats (Atk and Def)"
I think we all have choices to make... I mean choice band severely limits your versatility but we make that choice every time we use it. Superpower is an option to have because it can potentially finish off that counter as well as a lot of other pokemon and just like you can switch out with choice band to regain the usefulness of the pokemon against other pokemon, you can also switch this out. it doesn't limit its usefulness. I'm done for my argument I guess.
Oh and about what you said to PMJfan...
"Don't kid yourself. Octillery is never going to be a better counter to Scizor than something which STOPS IT SWITCHING and OHKO's it. lcrista is at least somewhat believable - this argument is downright stupid, and not even a beginner would claim such things."
Well i mean you keep mentioning U-turn a lot which basically nullifies the effect of magnet pull so what's the usefulness in that? And magnezone is not that great of a counter because a well predicted superpower from a max attack life orb scizor deals from 333-392 damage to a min defense, 80 HP evs (324) magnezone making it a definite OHKO... and even if it doesn't predict it, Scizor outruns magnezone on the following turn and can superpower to kill it.
I mean if something is going to use U-Turn, then there is really no counter for it because you can't just switch something in there... it's gonna run anyways so what's the point? So yeah. I'm done.
Urahara... wanna do our tourney battle now?
Okay... I'm going to break your argument down now... Come on gamercal! moveset? the reason why I ignored the question about moveset was because just like you may use different movesets on the same pokemon that you have, this aggron might also use different movesets. I think you keep missing the point which is that aggron has different possibilities. It might as well have aerial ace and OHKO any breloom horribly... It is an option which someone might consider if they constantly have a problem with brelooms. I think you just don't want to understand because you want to be correct. Just like aggron might meet all its friends that might be able to counter it in the same match, they might meet him with a super effective move on them. The movesets may change but the main point, again, is that it might have all the options.
And the New counters that you mentioned don't make sense... If we go by the definition of a counter which is something that can SAFELY switch in and immediately pose a threat/Kill it, then these are not counters. I mean not even the max speed Salamence can outrun aggron if it switches in as Aggron RPs, and it will get killed by a super effective HS right before it actually has a chance to DD. So how is that a counter to my set? And even though Infernape can hit first once it is in, Infernape has to be very weary of switching in to anything not named Iron tail/iron head. And said Salamence has to be weary of switching into a Head smash as well... And don't even bother discussing this or arguing its validity because even without SR it will be KOd even after intimidate... let me explain. A 241 def Max (394) HP physically bulky Salamence will be done 374-440 damage even after an intimidate which is 94.92%-111.67% without SR making this a 69.67% chance to OHKO. And this is coming from a jolly Life orbed Aggron. Infernape Should not even Think about switching into an Aggron because with a Head smash, it will be over before it gets the right footing in. Never mind firing a Vaccum wave. And yes this is a valid argument because Smogon Always posts "X pokemon is a counter, though it must be weary of switching into X move". So how are these counters?
"Those weaknesses and low initial Spe are also huge problems that will probably be enough to keep him out of contention (Fighting/Ground/Water are three of THE most common attacking types ever, and all of them ruin Aggron. Fighting/Ground undermine his huge Def by being 4x weaks, and Water is normally a special attacking type. SS helps the latter, but it's not enough by itself...). ."
Like I said, Everything has a weakness and even some beginning trainers know when to switch out or when to let something die.
"It can do some damage, but it's not something that will win games"
I disagree... A team that's not prepared for it can be caught off guard. As with anything that is not prepared for things. And even if they switch to their brelooms even for the revenge kill, we already know what can happen.
See the thing is that you forget that the problem you had with my initial argument was about it not being able to outrun salamence, which you must have known what type of salamence I meant because you mentioned "the new salamence" meaning you acknowledged that there was an old one. Therefore you posted for the sake of arguing against my logic. And THEN you came up to list counters to it. Now, I never said that it is not counterable, but that it is a beast basically.
Moving on...
"I never ran any defensive calculation on Breloom because it shouldn't be switching in to an attack in the first place."
Well, then it's not exactly a counter is it? it is a revenge killer. Which there are plenty of those in the game.
"However, whilst you briefly mentioned Double-Edge in your previous post, you didn't seem keen on the idea of using it. EXACTLY what moves are you using? If you don't give me a moveset that you are basing your arguments on, many of said arguments are going to fail. We all know that if you use Rock Polish, you have exactly three attacks. Head Smash is obvious. You mentioned Aqua Tail as a strong option, and for some reason you wanted Iron Tail (Iron Head is better IMO, especially with the Spe from RP).
In my original post I didn't bother to list any specific moveset because obviously it has a lot of options. Just like Salamence cannot Kill everyone with ONE specific moveset or set of attacks, you cannot possibly expect an aggron to have a specific moveset. Rock polish will be there i guess for the sake of the debate since I did mention it on the original post as well as max attack, speed, head smash and life orb. but that leaves a couple of more options including a nature option and 2 more filler moves. On a given day I might have one moveset and on another given day I might have another moveset on it... it is my choice and it is a smart choice in order to be less predictable or if I see brelooms raping it constantly. Iron head is a little better in some situations, but is less powerful so in THIS case it is not better because it doesn't give the power output that is needed. But it's not likely that I will use it because of its inaccuracy, but again, I wasn't listing a specific moveset if you haven't gotten it yet. I was listing options. And who knows? maybe I will place it in there one day because I see that it is vital in order to KO many of the fighting types that might counter it while, yes I know, i will be taking the risk of inaccuracy.
"So where does Double-Edge fit? If you turn round and say "oh, that's on the CB set obviously", then your argument is completely flawed, because CB is not the set under scrutiny here."
Again, I think I already covered this.
"I felt that this wasn't necessary to mention. But since you HAVE, thanks for making my side even stronger by providing another check/counter Toungue. "
Man gamercal, it's alright to admit if you missed something. No one in this world is perfect although you try to be.
"A UU one at that, which is always helpful... since Aggron really needs to get past UU if it is to be remotely successful in OU"
Well actually having a UU counter doesn't mean that you can't be in OU since one of some Salamence's greatest counter is Porygon2 which is UU. I know because I have one and it works wonders.
"Obviously. Nothing is perfect (especially Deo-A; priority anyone?), so that is one thing I obviously cannot do."
LOL... I'm just going to counter this one with one of your lines... actually the first line that you placed in your counter argument.
"Alright, first rule of debating; Nothing is obvious."-Gamercal, 2 pages ago.
"No it wasn't. What you did was say that and then gave false facts about what it could do. It cannot necessarily outspeed Salamence and Gyarados like you said it could (which is why we are even here in the first place), and it cannot achieve many of the 2HKO's that you said it could in your second-last post either. I despise misinformation, since it's often hard enough to understand Pokémon as it is without telling people things that are wrong. I corrected what you said that was wrong, and you've gone all defensive on the matter as a result. Which is fine by me of course, since it's not my place to tell you you can't defend what you've said. But as a strategist on the forums it is MY place to provide the forums with knowledge, and correct people when they are wrong (with evidence to back it up). If you don't LIKE that, I suggest you do a little more research into things before making outlandish statements."
Well, you are right on that one except that I didn't say that it could outspeed gyarados and salamence after a DD. I said that it could outspeed SOME salamence which we already deduced that you knew which salamence I was talking about. And yes, it actually could outrun all gyarados. I'm talking jolly, LO, max speed, Rock polish.
Also, my original argument wasn't that it could kill the counters. Just that it was a beast. You were the one that came up with a list of counters and then I came up with a way for my aggron to actually KO them. and like I said I didn't even discuss aerial ace for breloom. And following the pattern of situations that you have placed, IF Hariyama doesn't focus EVs on Def then it cannot be a potential counter. Like say the player bluffs a counter with Hariyama to scare it out, but instead it gets hit with an Stab HS on the switch, a jolly, LO, max attack head smash will knock out up to 253 HP which can be potentially a 2KO and most likely it will be if the hariyama doesn't have 252HP evs which players don't usually place on it...
"How so? I'd love to know how a Rock Polish Aggron is supposed to handle its counters after the calculations above proved that it's can't do very much to many of them at all. Running a different set normally means it will have different counters, and is therefore irrelevant to how a ROCK POLISH one is going to beat its counters."
WHAT? you mentioned if the aggron had recieved previous damage but what about if its counters have received previous damage? I mean many of those close calls that are 2KOs or 3KOs are easily turned into OHKOs and 2KOs with like 10% damage. Like if breloom or hariyama have received 10% previous damage, then they could be OHKOd and 2KOd respectively by a life orbed Iron tail. Dealing from 229-270 damage to breloom without defense evs and from 206-242 damage to hariyama. The mighty Hippowdon at max (420) HP and 345 def (168 Def Evs) cannot switch into it with 10% off its life off as it will have a slight chance of being 2KOd by a LO, Jolly, Max attack (415 attack total) aqua tail if it has received at least 12% damage. Check it out, it deals from 158-186 damage which over the course of 2 turns becomes at most 372 damage. You call this "not doing very much at all"?! I think we can both agree that 10-12% damage initially is nothing at all and could be healed with 2 turns of leftovers. And this is without the hippo doing anything to it... I place this example because you've been talking about counters being at 100% yet you also refer to Aggron having taken some damage previously. But yet you know that there are different type of movesets made for stages of battle; Lead, early game, Mid game, and Late game. So this is perfectly viable.
"The point is that you have to take a turn to set up Rock Polish, as well as another turn to switch Aggron in somewhere (unless you wait until something dies). These turns will see the opponent either switch to a counter (at which point it comes in untouched) or attack you and damage you as you set up. If it's the latter, that's where my "situational" damage comes in. If it's the FORMER, then that's where my defensive damage calculations come in, as the majority of opposition you will face will then be at 100% HP, and I've already shown you that's it's impossible to 2HKO most of them."
And that's a major flaw in your reasoning... You know you can't assume anything in pokemon. Just because I have rock polish on my aggron doesn't mean that I HAVE to use it first turn. What IF i have seen your Hippo previously because you took it out against my Salamence per se, and it did take some damage... I take out my aggron and I know you're going to switch out to hippo because it's the best thing you got. (I mean even some of the novice battlers know that this is something that's very reasonable to do). I use aqua tail because I know that 1. I'm faster and don't need a boost and 2. I know I can KO you. What IF that happens? I could potentially use it as a late game. And I could've also taken it out before and it could have received some or even major damage. you still can't KO because you don't get a chance to attack. So come on. if they are at 100% then fine. But that doesn't mean that 1. Aggron cannot be a useful beast and 2. I cannot be smart and just switch out to suicune predicting the earthquake.
I'm not going to discuss the two paragraphs you posted because i just don't feel like it. But about your statement:
"Same point as above - Superpower is a very poor option on Aggron, as it lowers its only two good stats (Atk and Def)"
I think we all have choices to make... I mean choice band severely limits your versatility but we make that choice every time we use it. Superpower is an option to have because it can potentially finish off that counter as well as a lot of other pokemon and just like you can switch out with choice band to regain the usefulness of the pokemon against other pokemon, you can also switch this out. it doesn't limit its usefulness. I'm done for my argument I guess.
Oh and about what you said to PMJfan...
"Don't kid yourself. Octillery is never going to be a better counter to Scizor than something which STOPS IT SWITCHING and OHKO's it. lcrista is at least somewhat believable - this argument is downright stupid, and not even a beginner would claim such things."
Well i mean you keep mentioning U-turn a lot which basically nullifies the effect of magnet pull so what's the usefulness in that? And magnezone is not that great of a counter because a well predicted superpower from a max attack life orb scizor deals from 333-392 damage to a min defense, 80 HP evs (324) magnezone making it a definite OHKO... and even if it doesn't predict it, Scizor outruns magnezone on the following turn and can superpower to kill it.
I mean if something is going to use U-Turn, then there is really no counter for it because you can't just switch something in there... it's gonna run anyways so what's the point? So yeah. I'm done.
Urahara... wanna do our tourney battle now?
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
Hmm hmm.
You use prediction in almost all of your arguments here. Prediction is NOT a good argument for one good reason - your opponent can predict as well. To give an easy example, what if you DIDN'T Rock Polish and attacked, predicting I switched out to that Hippo you saw before... but I didn't switch out since I anticipate this, and I attack myself? Whether you're KO'd or not, it's not the point - your prediction failed, and your sweep is practically out of the window because of it (even if it's only because of a revenge kill, it's still a lost sweep).
And don't even bother going for the whole "but then I RP because I predict that you'll attack", because it's the same deal again.
I don't ever recall saying that EITHER Infernape NOR Breloom are counters at all. I said MACH PUNCH was a counter, but I didn't say any one pokémon at all. You were the one that mentioned Breloom and Infernape - don't try to make it sound as if I said such things should be switching in against Aggron.
It's a bit difficult to use the "Nothing is obvious" line when you are dealing with a question that clearly cannot be answered <_<
Sure, you can't ASSUME anything in a sense, but what I feel is a SAFE assumption is that you WANT to win, and therefore WANT to set up sweeps wherever possible. But I don't quite see your point here - where am I assuming much of anything else here? I gave you what could/would happen in both the possible scenarios when a counter/check is brought in. I don't assume one is going to happen over the other...
If you're meaning something about assuming walls are coming in at 100%, well, that's what you would normally expect for a counter - obviously you aren't sending in Hariyama at 40%, expecting to wall Aggron with that. You send stuff in at a GOOD degree of health if you expect it to do its job... because otherwise the intelligent play is basically to attack and sacrifice what you have out (unless it REALLY can't touch Aggron, but with those weaks and poor SpD this would be very rare). Simply put, anything can sweep if its counters are sufficiently weakened. Since this face is universal, it is useless to use it as an argument, because it can apply to literally everything.
The reason I ask you for a moveset and not just listing everything Aggron can ever learn (half of what you are listing is useless in pretty much all cases btw... come on, Aerial Ace? You can do better than that) is because you can only beat stuff if you're holding the right moves to do so... naturally if you don't go with Aqua Tail Hippowdon has a field day. Same with Harry and Iron Tail (which is a bad move in the first place), or Registeel and EQ... whilst these may be OPTIONS, you can't carry ALL of them, so inevitably you are going to be stopped by something. Maybe if you stopped listing pointless moves that serve one extremely minor purpose and actually looked into an effective moveset you could have a stronger case here.
And... you didn't come up with ways it could beat the counters, because as I showed before you don't actually ACHIEVE the KO's you said you did (another case of false facts). But of course, you are going to assume that it's an ideal world for yourself and the opponent is a worse player than you, so that you allow yourself the ability to hit all counters on the switch for 2HKO's since they've already taken damage. Since that's a sensible argument, huh?
Do note that there's something else I haven't actually made reference to yet. Head Smash, Aqua Tail and Iron Tail (which is only useful for the damage to Harry) all have VERY shaky accuracy - 80, 90 and 75% respectively. Aqua Tail is somewhat reliable I guess, but 90% on a secondary move really isn't what you want, especially when none of the other moves there are any better. The only actual reliable moves Aggron can VIABLY run are Iron Head (which is better than Iron Tail, but can't hope to 2HKO Harry... you might get lucky and flinch though), Double-Edge (although the type coverage is obviously poor, it's strong, so it has merits) or Earthquake. And if you miss even ONCE, that's pretty much all the opponent needs to knock you flat.
You were saying?
Also, I did not know which Salamence you were talking about, because the one you were talking about is NOT the standard one. I don't know how many times I have to say that before it sinks in, but... oh, and I forgot that you have both Adamant and jolly nature boosts apparently, as well as every move in the game available to you at once.
Don't even bother trying to defend PMJFan's post, it really isn't worth it. ESPECIALLY when you try to use prediction as a method of defence. Because you're REALLY going to Superpower that Gengar that's currently in battle since you expect it to switch out... that's intelligent play for you huh? There ARE ways of making sure that Scizor basically isn't going to hit Magnezone with Superpower as it comes in you know.
As for U-Turn, yes, that's the basic thing it's going to do, so "countering" it is pretty useless for long periods of time. But sooner or later Scizor is going to do something else (whether that's because it's threatened by a KO or because it's too slow to end up getting U-Turn to work properly), and it's THEN that you counter it. Plus, not ALL Scizor are CB - those who SD are easy switch ins for Magnezone
Hmm hmm.
You use prediction in almost all of your arguments here. Prediction is NOT a good argument for one good reason - your opponent can predict as well. To give an easy example, what if you DIDN'T Rock Polish and attacked, predicting I switched out to that Hippo you saw before... but I didn't switch out since I anticipate this, and I attack myself? Whether you're KO'd or not, it's not the point - your prediction failed, and your sweep is practically out of the window because of it (even if it's only because of a revenge kill, it's still a lost sweep).
And don't even bother going for the whole "but then I RP because I predict that you'll attack", because it's the same deal again.
I don't ever recall saying that EITHER Infernape NOR Breloom are counters at all. I said MACH PUNCH was a counter, but I didn't say any one pokémon at all. You were the one that mentioned Breloom and Infernape - don't try to make it sound as if I said such things should be switching in against Aggron.
It's a bit difficult to use the "Nothing is obvious" line when you are dealing with a question that clearly cannot be answered <_<
Sure, you can't ASSUME anything in a sense, but what I feel is a SAFE assumption is that you WANT to win, and therefore WANT to set up sweeps wherever possible. But I don't quite see your point here - where am I assuming much of anything else here? I gave you what could/would happen in both the possible scenarios when a counter/check is brought in. I don't assume one is going to happen over the other...
If you're meaning something about assuming walls are coming in at 100%, well, that's what you would normally expect for a counter - obviously you aren't sending in Hariyama at 40%, expecting to wall Aggron with that. You send stuff in at a GOOD degree of health if you expect it to do its job... because otherwise the intelligent play is basically to attack and sacrifice what you have out (unless it REALLY can't touch Aggron, but with those weaks and poor SpD this would be very rare). Simply put, anything can sweep if its counters are sufficiently weakened. Since this face is universal, it is useless to use it as an argument, because it can apply to literally everything.
The reason I ask you for a moveset and not just listing everything Aggron can ever learn (half of what you are listing is useless in pretty much all cases btw... come on, Aerial Ace? You can do better than that) is because you can only beat stuff if you're holding the right moves to do so... naturally if you don't go with Aqua Tail Hippowdon has a field day. Same with Harry and Iron Tail (which is a bad move in the first place), or Registeel and EQ... whilst these may be OPTIONS, you can't carry ALL of them, so inevitably you are going to be stopped by something. Maybe if you stopped listing pointless moves that serve one extremely minor purpose and actually looked into an effective moveset you could have a stronger case here.
And... you didn't come up with ways it could beat the counters, because as I showed before you don't actually ACHIEVE the KO's you said you did (another case of false facts). But of course, you are going to assume that it's an ideal world for yourself and the opponent is a worse player than you, so that you allow yourself the ability to hit all counters on the switch for 2HKO's since they've already taken damage. Since that's a sensible argument, huh?
Do note that there's something else I haven't actually made reference to yet. Head Smash, Aqua Tail and Iron Tail (which is only useful for the damage to Harry) all have VERY shaky accuracy - 80, 90 and 75% respectively. Aqua Tail is somewhat reliable I guess, but 90% on a secondary move really isn't what you want, especially when none of the other moves there are any better. The only actual reliable moves Aggron can VIABLY run are Iron Head (which is better than Iron Tail, but can't hope to 2HKO Harry... you might get lucky and flinch though), Double-Edge (although the type coverage is obviously poor, it's strong, so it has merits) or Earthquake. And if you miss even ONCE, that's pretty much all the opponent needs to knock you flat.
lcristia said:
lcristia said:
You were saying?
Also, I did not know which Salamence you were talking about, because the one you were talking about is NOT the standard one. I don't know how many times I have to say that before it sinks in, but... oh, and I forgot that you have both Adamant and jolly nature boosts apparently, as well as every move in the game available to you at once.
Don't even bother trying to defend PMJFan's post, it really isn't worth it. ESPECIALLY when you try to use prediction as a method of defence. Because you're REALLY going to Superpower that Gengar that's currently in battle since you expect it to switch out... that's intelligent play for you huh? There ARE ways of making sure that Scizor basically isn't going to hit Magnezone with Superpower as it comes in you know.
As for U-Turn, yes, that's the basic thing it's going to do, so "countering" it is pretty useless for long periods of time. But sooner or later Scizor is going to do something else (whether that's because it's threatened by a KO or because it's too slow to end up getting U-Turn to work properly), and it's THEN that you counter it. Plus, not ALL Scizor are CB - those who SD are easy switch ins for Magnezone
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
Okay... let me get the small issues out of the way first... You have a problem admitting when you're wrong. Because if you REALLY think that magnezone is actually a good counter to scizor, then I don't know what to tell you. I thought you knew that magnezone cannot outrun scizor nor OHKO scizor unless it's carrying HP fire while scizor can turn it into scrap metal before it gets a chance to attack with a super effective Superpower. I mean magnezone is not a good counter to steels anymore unless they are holding a choice item or are forrettress/skarmory. Just think Lucario, Bronzong (EQ), Heatran, Probopass (earthpower), Metagross, and Scizor. and even Empoleon carry EQ sometimes for that same reason (ask joeypals)... But Scizor is at the front of that list because not only is it faster AND carries superpower, but also has 2 other moves to get away in baton pass and U-Turn while the best Magnezone could do is a 2KO with Tbolt unless it's made specifically to be a scizor counter and carries HP fire. And nowhere in my statement did I mention scizor having a choice band. I just mentioned prediction because you could use it because gengar has no hope of KOing Scizor unless it is made specifically to counter it and is carrying HP fire which is a bad idea anyways because BP is a priority move. But I did mention Life Orb and superpower which I think you missed because you were too focused on being right. I think you should read it again so it actually "sinks in", but with the versatility of LO, it would be easy to KO it. SD would be even worse on magnezone and will give scizor a free turn to get a +1 attack boost as it attacks with superpower after a SD.
Now to move on to the bigger issue:
By what you're saying, then you can't really win a prediction argument because I can say I will predict this and the opponent will do that and you can say otherwise. But that is not the point. The point is that some of the "counters" that you placed cannot take 2 hits effectively.
I'm not saynig that Aggron is invincible. I know it can be taken out very easily. My point in this debate is that it can dish out heavy damage which was what I said on my first post and that with a RP, it can very easily set up a sweep. There is nothing False about it.
What you said though, was false in that it won't be even scratching its counters as"it's can't do very much to many of them at all". I mean seriously? you call the noted 2KO on harry not doing much at all? while even a max attack harry has a 66% chance of NOT KOing with the move that you mentioned, force palm (force palm is a preferred choice to harry because of its naturally low speed and defenses, it cannot afford to get a defense drop and if it's doing some tanking then it would enjoy the paralysis rate). And an impish hariyama with 172 At Evs (319 attack) will damage it from 217-256 which has only a 7.6% chance of KOing aggron and this is ONLY AFTER a LO health drop. While Aggron, as I already showed can 2KO it and even though it will go down as well because of LO it effectively took down a counter that "it couldn't do much to at all". Registeel is another "counter" who cannot KO but is itself KOd by superpower as previously shown. Oh, and all this time I have been coming up with calcs using the jolly version... if you didn't notice on my previous post... all the calcs done were using Jolly aggron's stats...
And about it not getting past its counters... I mean... Come on really... Weavile has a 4x weakness and major weaknesses to scizor and forretress which it cannot ever hope to get past but it is still considered a strong OU pokemon. Zapdos or basically any OU special attacker that doesn't have explosion or something physically strong is not getting past blissey any time soon... Gosh! Uber Pokes have a hard time getting past Blissey... I mean counters are what they are... Counters. But they don't limit the usability or effectiveness of the pokemon that they counter. It's all part of the gameplay.
It also doesn't take away from the fact that a STAB Head smash is more powerful than Salamence's Draco Meteor. Even though one is physical and the other is special, it still wields higher power. It is very strong and that is what I'm trying to say.
And please don't come up with accuracy because if hypnosis can hit 4 times in a battle and focus blast 2 or 3 times in a row and people can get 2 crits IN A ROW and maybe sometimes more (even though the crit thing doesn't happen often at all, but I've seen hypnosis in action and focus blast) then I think that if I can hit something with a head smash at least 3 times (which is the same as a hydro pump recommended on many sets and much better than focus blast also recommended on many sets) then that's a lot of damage being done.
I haven't really decided on the moveset yet because some options are very interesting... I mean EQ, superpower, Aqua tail, Double edge, HS, Iron head, Iron tail. Many options... and all serve their uses... Can't really finish this because I have to go but will gladly continue it later...
Okay... let me get the small issues out of the way first... You have a problem admitting when you're wrong. Because if you REALLY think that magnezone is actually a good counter to scizor, then I don't know what to tell you. I thought you knew that magnezone cannot outrun scizor nor OHKO scizor unless it's carrying HP fire while scizor can turn it into scrap metal before it gets a chance to attack with a super effective Superpower. I mean magnezone is not a good counter to steels anymore unless they are holding a choice item or are forrettress/skarmory. Just think Lucario, Bronzong (EQ), Heatran, Probopass (earthpower), Metagross, and Scizor. and even Empoleon carry EQ sometimes for that same reason (ask joeypals)... But Scizor is at the front of that list because not only is it faster AND carries superpower, but also has 2 other moves to get away in baton pass and U-Turn while the best Magnezone could do is a 2KO with Tbolt unless it's made specifically to be a scizor counter and carries HP fire. And nowhere in my statement did I mention scizor having a choice band. I just mentioned prediction because you could use it because gengar has no hope of KOing Scizor unless it is made specifically to counter it and is carrying HP fire which is a bad idea anyways because BP is a priority move. But I did mention Life Orb and superpower which I think you missed because you were too focused on being right. I think you should read it again so it actually "sinks in", but with the versatility of LO, it would be easy to KO it. SD would be even worse on magnezone and will give scizor a free turn to get a +1 attack boost as it attacks with superpower after a SD.
Now to move on to the bigger issue:
By what you're saying, then you can't really win a prediction argument because I can say I will predict this and the opponent will do that and you can say otherwise. But that is not the point. The point is that some of the "counters" that you placed cannot take 2 hits effectively.
I'm not saynig that Aggron is invincible. I know it can be taken out very easily. My point in this debate is that it can dish out heavy damage which was what I said on my first post and that with a RP, it can very easily set up a sweep. There is nothing False about it.
What you said though, was false in that it won't be even scratching its counters as"it's can't do very much to many of them at all". I mean seriously? you call the noted 2KO on harry not doing much at all? while even a max attack harry has a 66% chance of NOT KOing with the move that you mentioned, force palm (force palm is a preferred choice to harry because of its naturally low speed and defenses, it cannot afford to get a defense drop and if it's doing some tanking then it would enjoy the paralysis rate). And an impish hariyama with 172 At Evs (319 attack) will damage it from 217-256 which has only a 7.6% chance of KOing aggron and this is ONLY AFTER a LO health drop. While Aggron, as I already showed can 2KO it and even though it will go down as well because of LO it effectively took down a counter that "it couldn't do much to at all". Registeel is another "counter" who cannot KO but is itself KOd by superpower as previously shown. Oh, and all this time I have been coming up with calcs using the jolly version... if you didn't notice on my previous post... all the calcs done were using Jolly aggron's stats...
And about it not getting past its counters... I mean... Come on really... Weavile has a 4x weakness and major weaknesses to scizor and forretress which it cannot ever hope to get past but it is still considered a strong OU pokemon. Zapdos or basically any OU special attacker that doesn't have explosion or something physically strong is not getting past blissey any time soon... Gosh! Uber Pokes have a hard time getting past Blissey... I mean counters are what they are... Counters. But they don't limit the usability or effectiveness of the pokemon that they counter. It's all part of the gameplay.
It also doesn't take away from the fact that a STAB Head smash is more powerful than Salamence's Draco Meteor. Even though one is physical and the other is special, it still wields higher power. It is very strong and that is what I'm trying to say.
And please don't come up with accuracy because if hypnosis can hit 4 times in a battle and focus blast 2 or 3 times in a row and people can get 2 crits IN A ROW and maybe sometimes more (even though the crit thing doesn't happen often at all, but I've seen hypnosis in action and focus blast) then I think that if I can hit something with a head smash at least 3 times (which is the same as a hydro pump recommended on many sets and much better than focus blast also recommended on many sets) then that's a lot of damage being done.
I haven't really decided on the moveset yet because some options are very interesting... I mean EQ, superpower, Aqua tail, Double edge, HS, Iron head, Iron tail. Many options... and all serve their uses... Can't really finish this because I have to go but will gladly continue it later...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
*Blinks at the wall of text*
Icrista, most Magnezones seem to run Choice Scarf. I might be wrong, but I've faced a lot of CS zones. And some Gengar run HP Fire. So you switch in to Magnezone, then switch to Gengar and predict the Superpower. Now if your Opponent doesn't know that Gengar has HP Fire, they might not switch. (Don't take my word for it, I don't use Gengar, Magnezone or Scizor.)
*Blinks at the wall of text*
Icrista, most Magnezones seem to run Choice Scarf. I might be wrong, but I've faced a lot of CS zones. And some Gengar run HP Fire. So you switch in to Magnezone, then switch to Gengar and predict the Superpower. Now if your Opponent doesn't know that Gengar has HP Fire, they might not switch. (Don't take my word for it, I don't use Gengar, Magnezone or Scizor.)
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
That's the point here - Magnezone is a an effective steel trapper because it commonly runs Choice Scarf to make this job possible - that makes it FASTER than any of the pokémon you mentioned there. I thought YOU knew what standard pokémon were, since you clearly use them in everything else you are doing here (Hariyama, Registeel, Salamence etc). Choice Band is the standard on Scizor, since LO only really works with SD sets due to the bulky nature of Scizor.
Obviously if you're going to use Magnezone as a Scizor counter, it would have HP Fire just for that job - don't be so naive. That isn't even a debate line, that's just common sense... something which is sorely lacking in the argument PMJFan came up with, and for some obscure reason you are trying to defend. Maybe it's just so you can argue with me? :S
Did you pay attention to MY Calcs there, rather than trying to push your own through? I told you an ADAMANT Aggron using Iron Tail (the strongest move it has against Harry) does 45.66-53.67%. THAT is a 2HKO, but you said you will be using JOLLY, not ADAMANT; that calc results in 41.87 - 49-22%, as I told you before. Please explain to the world how less than 50% is a 2HKO when a pokémon has 100% HP...
I don't have access to the damage calcs at unviersity, so if I feel like it I'll check your supposed 66% failure rate with Harry later. But did that factor your 1-2 turns of LO recoil in? Cause I highly doubt that it did... doing 80-90% is possible even with 319 Atk, so from 372 it should be effortless (since that gives Harry almost 20% more Atk).
You also forget that this is the WEAKEST fighting move Harry can use - there's the more powerful Brick Break that can serve a purpose on teams over Force Palm for justthis type of occasion. Hey, if you can have every move in the game, why can't your counters?
Weavile isn't even a strong pokémon, idk where you got that from. Zapdos yeah, but Zapdos is a real menace to almost every team without a Blissey (or Latias if you use HP Grass), so of course it's going to be viable still...
For the record, I have a problem admitting I'm wrong when I'm clearly not - I've provided solid evidence for virtually (if not) everything I've said so far. If you honestly think I'm wrong still, actually disprove what I say without resorting to such petty behaviour.
Accuracy is a somewhat viable thing to bring up if your entire moveset has a chance to miss... hax happens all to often in pokémon, and whilst you can hit several times in a row it's also possible to MISS several times in a row too. Iron Tail is a poor move choice because it's highly likely to miss - it's the same reason why you don't see Dragon Rush over Dragon Claw. Whilst Head Smash is a little better, it doesn't make up for the fact that many of the moves you are looking into have a significant chance to miss, and using all of them on the same set is not a good idea...
But whatever. I've already given pretty much all the information I need for this, including the fact that ALL the pokémon I've given can take two hits easily if they are EV'd correctly (remember that I didn't tell you Breloom or Infernape are counters to Aggron)... all except possibly Registeel are using standard EV Spreads to do this as well. Unless you dedicate a fair bit of the rest of your team to wiping these counters out, Aggron can't easily set up a sweep at all... it's a bit difficult to set up when there's counters about :S
But yeah, I'm done for now. I don't see the point in arguing a case that I've given everything I need to win and it's not accepted. All I can do really is give the true facts as they appear... if that isn't enough for the other party, it's them at fault...
Pikamaster said:
That's the point here - Magnezone is a an effective steel trapper because it commonly runs Choice Scarf to make this job possible - that makes it FASTER than any of the pokémon you mentioned there. I thought YOU knew what standard pokémon were, since you clearly use them in everything else you are doing here (Hariyama, Registeel, Salamence etc). Choice Band is the standard on Scizor, since LO only really works with SD sets due to the bulky nature of Scizor.
Obviously if you're going to use Magnezone as a Scizor counter, it would have HP Fire just for that job - don't be so naive. That isn't even a debate line, that's just common sense... something which is sorely lacking in the argument PMJFan came up with, and for some obscure reason you are trying to defend. Maybe it's just so you can argue with me? :S
Did you pay attention to MY Calcs there, rather than trying to push your own through? I told you an ADAMANT Aggron using Iron Tail (the strongest move it has against Harry) does 45.66-53.67%. THAT is a 2HKO, but you said you will be using JOLLY, not ADAMANT; that calc results in 41.87 - 49-22%, as I told you before. Please explain to the world how less than 50% is a 2HKO when a pokémon has 100% HP...
I don't have access to the damage calcs at unviersity, so if I feel like it I'll check your supposed 66% failure rate with Harry later. But did that factor your 1-2 turns of LO recoil in? Cause I highly doubt that it did... doing 80-90% is possible even with 319 Atk, so from 372 it should be effortless (since that gives Harry almost 20% more Atk).
You also forget that this is the WEAKEST fighting move Harry can use - there's the more powerful Brick Break that can serve a purpose on teams over Force Palm for justthis type of occasion. Hey, if you can have every move in the game, why can't your counters?
Weavile isn't even a strong pokémon, idk where you got that from. Zapdos yeah, but Zapdos is a real menace to almost every team without a Blissey (or Latias if you use HP Grass), so of course it's going to be viable still...
For the record, I have a problem admitting I'm wrong when I'm clearly not - I've provided solid evidence for virtually (if not) everything I've said so far. If you honestly think I'm wrong still, actually disprove what I say without resorting to such petty behaviour.
Accuracy is a somewhat viable thing to bring up if your entire moveset has a chance to miss... hax happens all to often in pokémon, and whilst you can hit several times in a row it's also possible to MISS several times in a row too. Iron Tail is a poor move choice because it's highly likely to miss - it's the same reason why you don't see Dragon Rush over Dragon Claw. Whilst Head Smash is a little better, it doesn't make up for the fact that many of the moves you are looking into have a significant chance to miss, and using all of them on the same set is not a good idea...
But whatever. I've already given pretty much all the information I need for this, including the fact that ALL the pokémon I've given can take two hits easily if they are EV'd correctly (remember that I didn't tell you Breloom or Infernape are counters to Aggron)... all except possibly Registeel are using standard EV Spreads to do this as well. Unless you dedicate a fair bit of the rest of your team to wiping these counters out, Aggron can't easily set up a sweep at all... it's a bit difficult to set up when there's counters about :S
But yeah, I'm done for now. I don't see the point in arguing a case that I've given everything I need to win and it's not accepted. All I can do really is give the true facts as they appear... if that isn't enough for the other party, it's them at fault...
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
maybe next step to resolve this to battle.....but we need to wait for awhile before HG/SS to be out..lol XD
good job guy....;p
this make me realize that there is so many pokemon that we have not use or try since most ppl concentrade on OU and the rest is being ignore...(not all)
with these i think try new pokemon..so far im happy with my UU team, with my raticate (Rat's Trap)<(TM) ...lol XD
Btw anyone up for battle?
maybe next step to resolve this to battle.....but we need to wait for awhile before HG/SS to be out..lol XD
good job guy....;p
this make me realize that there is so many pokemon that we have not use or try since most ppl concentrade on OU and the rest is being ignore...(not all)
with these i think try new pokemon..so far im happy with my UU team, with my raticate (Rat's Trap)<(TM) ...lol XD
Btw anyone up for battle?
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
Hehe My Raticate's name is Meatball now
urahara_hat said:
Hehe My Raticate's name is Meatball now
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
LOL Nice.
Yeah, I nicknamed my new team.
Jolteon-Arashi
Froslass-Valkyrie
Salamence-Gildragon
Honchkrow-SlayMaster
Latias-No nickname....not yet...
Swampert-MizuBeast
All of these names have a meaning and or reason.
jboy said:^ I nicknamed my Heatran Meatball he looks just like one.
LOL Nice.
Yeah, I nicknamed my new team.
Jolteon-Arashi
Froslass-Valkyrie
Salamence-Gildragon
Honchkrow-SlayMaster
Latias-No nickname....not yet...
Swampert-MizuBeast
All of these names have a meaning and or reason.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
My best breed ever, only RNGd for Shinyness.
Shiny Eevee
Nature: Sassy
IVs: 30 / 31 / 31 / 28 / 31 / 7
Egg Moves: Wish/Yawn/Curse
HP Grass 59
Will turn into
Shiny Flareon
Nature: Sassy
Moves: Wish, Curse, Superpower, ?
Tanking Flareon.
My best breed ever, only RNGd for Shinyness.
Shiny Eevee
Nature: Sassy
IVs: 30 / 31 / 31 / 28 / 31 / 7
Egg Moves: Wish/Yawn/Curse
HP Grass 59
Will turn into
Shiny Flareon
Nature: Sassy
Moves: Wish, Curse, Superpower, ?
Tanking Flareon.
RE: The TEMPORARY Rising Sun Clan. The war is a DRAW.
"Choice Band is the standard on Scizor, since LO only really works with SD sets due to the bulky nature of Scizor. "
I guess you're getting tired Gamercal, 'cause you're not even reading what I'm writing down... I did say that magnezone is not efficient UNLESS they are choiced... and it cannot OHKO scizor in its dreams unless it's carrying HP fire... and that makes it specialized for scizor. Magnezone doesn't have any more powerful moves than Tbolt to hit steels, again other than skarm and forretress, with and it doesn't score any notable 2KOs on any of them except it does make it add empoleon to the shallow list of steels that it can kill. And yes this does include the very indefensive aggron BEFORE a SS boost. Run the calcs... Scoring a max of 98.9%... while all of them have the ability to KO with a EQ, or a fighting move. This is not even a point of argument...
But it's okay... you can ignore what I'm saying and try to push your argument past mine... but the facts are there... I mean you're not even reading! and yet you're blabbering without analyzing what you're saying. I mean you're talking about standard this and standard that... but a Standard Harry doesn't run max HP... it runs Max def, 80HP (449)... so do your calcs again... you are the one giving the false facts... with 449 HP your 206-242 damage becomes a 45.88%-53.89% which is clearly a 2KO with SS and even without SS it has a chance to 2KO... and this is coming from a jolly, LO, Max attack Aggron. So go ahead... check 'em again... I'll wait... Is this proof enough? I thought you knew that none of the sets hariyama runs (or all the standard ones at least because I know there might be creative people out there) run Max defense AND max HP... And I guess you could argue that both revenge and brick break may 2KO, but force palm is much more common... I don't know how much you play UU or face harrys... But force palm is desired because of harry is meant to be a team player when played as a tank and not to attack. Especially on stall, so force palm's paralysis rate is much more desired than 15 more points of extra power... I mean we are talking about standard here right?
And man! you don't really don't read do you? i did mention LO recoil in my calcs... hmm... maybe it didn't "sink in"...
and I know weavile isn't exactly one of the top threats in OU but it is definitely a strong pokemon. Because being able to KO many of the top OU threats (salamence, tyranitar, Starmie, gengar, Alakazam, Etc.) makes it a strong and very useful pokemon. Otherwise it wouldn't be OU would it? And zapdos has more than blissey to worry about... Tyranitar anyone? Flygon (No HP ice), And Notable others. But I like how you clearly evaded the whole point I was trying to make with the concept of Counters. It just proves my point in the fact that you're trying to win this debate by using amateur techniques like ignoring my points against you just because you can't admit when you're wrong. I mean come on... we're all competitive here and all like to win but this is childish if you're clearly ignoring my points...
And please... Leave the accuracy and the missing to the ones that are actually going to go through the risk of using those moves... Just like I said, Focus blast has horrible accuracy, but that doesn't mean it's not a Staple move on the standard Alakazam, Gengar, Typhlosion (specs), and many other pokes. Hydro pump, fire blast, cross chop and hypnosis and also many other shaky accuracy moves are staples on many sets but those are risks you have to take. To be honest, I'm not too sure if I will use it or not... maybe I will... but I'm just trying to prove a point. you said "it's can't do very much to many of them at all" which is clearly wrong. I mean I guess that is up for opinion as you are the one being unspecific as to what you mean with "very much"... I think 2KO is more than enough to an actual counter. Registeel is another "counter" that you mentioned... which is wrong because regi can't OHKO while it can be outpaced and 2KOd.
My Final (and original) argument: Aggron now has a very useful and powerful new move in a Stab Head Smash which is effectively more powerful than a Salamence's Draco Meteor. Add this to the fact that it can carry Rock Polish to boost its speeds to levels higher than that of any gyarados and some salamence (those who don't run faster than 291 speed which used to be standard DD mence and is still the classic Mix + physically bulky and specially bulky variants and the choice scarf Mence) and you have a real threat on your hands. Note that this was for reference and comparison reasons only because it's not likely that you'll have both a rock polish aggron and a +1 gyarados or mence out on the field at the same time because both have the moves and power to KO each other... And the fact that some of the counters that it has, most notably hariyama, registeel, and some others, have trouble switching in to moves it may carry (Iron Head for a 3KO/iron tail for a 2KO, EQ + Superpower/ Superpower for a 2KO while it can't OHKO it respectively) makes it an even bigger threat. It can be a real threat to the standard defensive Zapdos and many many others and pokemon that don't resist its stab HS are in for a world of pain.
Pikamaster said:
"Choice Band is the standard on Scizor, since LO only really works with SD sets due to the bulky nature of Scizor. "
I guess you're getting tired Gamercal, 'cause you're not even reading what I'm writing down... I did say that magnezone is not efficient UNLESS they are choiced... and it cannot OHKO scizor in its dreams unless it's carrying HP fire... and that makes it specialized for scizor. Magnezone doesn't have any more powerful moves than Tbolt to hit steels, again other than skarm and forretress, with and it doesn't score any notable 2KOs on any of them except it does make it add empoleon to the shallow list of steels that it can kill. And yes this does include the very indefensive aggron BEFORE a SS boost. Run the calcs... Scoring a max of 98.9%... while all of them have the ability to KO with a EQ, or a fighting move. This is not even a point of argument...
But it's okay... you can ignore what I'm saying and try to push your argument past mine... but the facts are there... I mean you're not even reading! and yet you're blabbering without analyzing what you're saying. I mean you're talking about standard this and standard that... but a Standard Harry doesn't run max HP... it runs Max def, 80HP (449)... so do your calcs again... you are the one giving the false facts... with 449 HP your 206-242 damage becomes a 45.88%-53.89% which is clearly a 2KO with SS and even without SS it has a chance to 2KO... and this is coming from a jolly, LO, Max attack Aggron. So go ahead... check 'em again... I'll wait... Is this proof enough? I thought you knew that none of the sets hariyama runs (or all the standard ones at least because I know there might be creative people out there) run Max defense AND max HP... And I guess you could argue that both revenge and brick break may 2KO, but force palm is much more common... I don't know how much you play UU or face harrys... But force palm is desired because of harry is meant to be a team player when played as a tank and not to attack. Especially on stall, so force palm's paralysis rate is much more desired than 15 more points of extra power... I mean we are talking about standard here right?
And man! you don't really don't read do you? i did mention LO recoil in my calcs... hmm... maybe it didn't "sink in"...
and I know weavile isn't exactly one of the top threats in OU but it is definitely a strong pokemon. Because being able to KO many of the top OU threats (salamence, tyranitar, Starmie, gengar, Alakazam, Etc.) makes it a strong and very useful pokemon. Otherwise it wouldn't be OU would it? And zapdos has more than blissey to worry about... Tyranitar anyone? Flygon (No HP ice), And Notable others. But I like how you clearly evaded the whole point I was trying to make with the concept of Counters. It just proves my point in the fact that you're trying to win this debate by using amateur techniques like ignoring my points against you just because you can't admit when you're wrong. I mean come on... we're all competitive here and all like to win but this is childish if you're clearly ignoring my points...
And please... Leave the accuracy and the missing to the ones that are actually going to go through the risk of using those moves... Just like I said, Focus blast has horrible accuracy, but that doesn't mean it's not a Staple move on the standard Alakazam, Gengar, Typhlosion (specs), and many other pokes. Hydro pump, fire blast, cross chop and hypnosis and also many other shaky accuracy moves are staples on many sets but those are risks you have to take. To be honest, I'm not too sure if I will use it or not... maybe I will... but I'm just trying to prove a point. you said "it's can't do very much to many of them at all" which is clearly wrong. I mean I guess that is up for opinion as you are the one being unspecific as to what you mean with "very much"... I think 2KO is more than enough to an actual counter. Registeel is another "counter" that you mentioned... which is wrong because regi can't OHKO while it can be outpaced and 2KOd.
My Final (and original) argument: Aggron now has a very useful and powerful new move in a Stab Head Smash which is effectively more powerful than a Salamence's Draco Meteor. Add this to the fact that it can carry Rock Polish to boost its speeds to levels higher than that of any gyarados and some salamence (those who don't run faster than 291 speed which used to be standard DD mence and is still the classic Mix + physically bulky and specially bulky variants and the choice scarf Mence) and you have a real threat on your hands. Note that this was for reference and comparison reasons only because it's not likely that you'll have both a rock polish aggron and a +1 gyarados or mence out on the field at the same time because both have the moves and power to KO each other... And the fact that some of the counters that it has, most notably hariyama, registeel, and some others, have trouble switching in to moves it may carry (Iron Head for a 3KO/iron tail for a 2KO, EQ + Superpower/ Superpower for a 2KO while it can't OHKO it respectively) makes it an even bigger threat. It can be a real threat to the standard defensive Zapdos and many many others and pokemon that don't resist its stab HS are in for a world of pain.
- Status