THE Durant thread: Durant NV.

Okay, some things that I think should be mentioned that nobody has mentioned yet:
Energy Exchanger -
You play Sp. Metal and Basic Metal, so why not make the Sp.s searchable? They'll do you more good the sooner you get them, plus you can halfway recycle them via Seeker. This also helps with my next point.

DCE -
Its second attack does 30 damage for {C}{C}, and if you run Energy Exchanger and just work in one DCE, you get the ability to donk lone baby starts, as well as Baby +1 basic starts, since you also run Seeker.

Xtransceiver -
Since Collectors are vital, why not pitch in two Xtransceivers to help get them out T1? Their 50/50 odds are better than PokeGear's (although, a 2/2 cut of Xt/Gear isn't a bad idea). Plus, you need Twins as well, so they will help get the engine started.

Judge -
Against the Dragons (and other things that are generally auto-losses), with the aid of Xtransceiver as well as running a solid number of them, you can get the Judge off T2 after having used Collector T1 and getting whatever resources you may have needed out of that hand. Now you can mill effectively and have a head start on the opponent.

Now, please keep in mind these are only untested theories, so as to whether they will actually work, I guess I'll find out.
 
Energy Exchange is useless when trying to get out a t1 4 Durant.

DCE should be used because the spaces could be used for more important cards.

Xt doesn't guarentee a Supporter, while most of the time the Pokegear gets a Supporter.

Judge should already be used.
 
The chance of you donking a baby is not nearly enough to waste several spots on DCE that 99/100 games will be useless (okay, maybe a little more but you get my point). With a huge number of supporters that Durant carries (rough estimate 20?) Pokegear isn't that much less chance than X-Transciever most of the time, I would imagine. Also, Energy Exchanger is rather useless as you can search for anything with Twins. Judge could work though, but might be outclassed by N.
 
Energy Exchanger makes you have a much better later-mid game by making it easier for your Durants to survive by getting out the Sp. Metals. And I'm not saying run multiple DCE, just one. People run Tyrogue in random decks to get the same effect, and I'm pretty sure adding a Tyrogue hurts a deck more than a DCE does. Also, you can use Energy Exchanger + another supporter, instead of using half of your Twins for a Sp. Metal or going into your opponent's turn with a completely unprotected Durant.

PokeGear does usually get you a Supporter, yes. But if I need a Collector, a Seeker will not be useful. By running two of each, you get the best of both worlds.

As far as Judge goes, I prefer it greatly over N, because it helps more early game than N does, which is when the winner will generally be decided.
 
Because you'll obviously have the DCE in your opening hand when your opponent opens a lone 30HP basic? T_T Good god, man! Tyrogue is searchable via Collector, Dual Ball, Communication, etc, which is why it's run over DCE. Not that anybody runs enough 30HP basics in any deck to make Tyrogue good, though. *Shifty eyes*

Energy Exchanger is bad for reasons already explained, and also because the deck is not at all reliant on having Special Metal out in a given time frame.

By running two Gear and 2 Transceiver, you do not get the best of either world. You dramatically reduce the chance you have either in your hand when you need it, and besides, Pokegear is better in every way. A 50% chance to get a supporter is completely outclassed by just running more supporters, whereas Pokegear has incredibly good odds of getting a Supporter. I'd rather whiff on the Collector 60% of the time (although in testing this was closer to 25%) instead of 50% of the time, than whiff of a Supporter 50% of the time instead of 90% of the time. The deck runs off of having supporters.

What makes you think you will draw a great Judge hand, and your opponent's will be horrible? N is also great because it can thin your opponent's deck out early-game. Mid to late game, you can usually avoid even playing it if necessary, but it can also be a much more one-way disruptive card than Judge.
 
Celebi23 said:
Because you'll obviously have the DCE in your opening hand when your opponent opens a lone 30HP basic? T_T Good god, man! Energy Exchanger and/or hand refresh. Out of 12-14 cards, I hope to hit 1 of the 3. Tyrogue is searchable via Collector, Dual Ball, Communication, etc, which is why it's run over DCE. Not that anybody runs enough 30HP basics in any deck to make Tyrogue good, though. *Shifty eyes* Pichu, Cleffa, Tyrogue. google/Truth, Reshiram, Stage 1's.

Energy Exchanger is bad for reasons already explained, and also because the deck is not at all reliant on having Special Metal out in a given time frame. Seems to me like it would be at least somewhat important, given that you're leading off with a 70 HP feature...

By running two Gear and 2 Transceiver, you do not get the best of either world. You dramatically reduce the chance you have either in your hand when you need itHow do you decrease your odds by putting in search cards instead of other cards? If I ran 4 Supporter search cards over 4, I dunno, energy for example. My odds of hitting the Collector would neither decrease nor increase, but my odds of hitting something that can possibly get me the collector rise, making my odds of acquiring one higher., and besides, Pokegear is better in every way. A 50% chance to get a supporter is completely outclassed by just running more supporters How do you propose I run more than 4 Collector?, whereas Pokegear has incredibly good odds of getting a Supporter. I'd rather whiff on the Collector 60% of the time (although in testing this was closer to 25%) instead of 50% of the time, than whiff of a Supporter 50% of the time instead of 90% of the time. The deck runs off of having supporters.

What makes you think you will draw a great Judge hand, and your opponent's will be horrible? I never said it would be. But seeing as you can get set up T1 more consistently than anything else in the format, I assume that if you both get 4-cards hands, you'll get the head start. N is also great because it can thin your opponent's deck out early-game. Your opponent probably runs PONT because they consider shuffling away your hand for 6 more cards to be a good thing. Mid to late game, you can usually avoid even playing it if necessary Unless they have a 0 or 1 card hand, it'll be necessary., but it can also be a much more one-way disruptive card than Judge. But if they do have a low hand count at any point in the game, Judge can disrupt + make them draw. N is only good for the first third of the game, because after that they'll probably be set up anyways, so you'll just be putting cards back in their deck.
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I think I should step out of the argument now. Wouldn't want to go about getting in trouble with any mods, now.
 
because putting more consistency in a deck would make it harder to get the cards you need.




inb4Celebi23scrub


Seriously, you won a regionals?
 
No matter what you do, Tyrogue will always be more searchable than a single DCE. If you run more than 1 DCE, it's a waste of space compared to just running the one Tyrogue. The shifty eyes implied that I still think Tyrogue is a good play.

The Special Metal is not important. What is that extra 10 resistance going to save you from? Yanmega and Donphan, pretty much, but nobody plays those. Besides, running 4 Special Metal compared to 4 Special Metal and 1 Energy Exchanger isn't a big difference.

If you run 4 Transceiver, you have twice as much of a chance to hit it as if you run 2. If you run 4 Pokegear, you have twice as much of a chance to hit it as if you run 2. Furthermore, Pokegear is in pretty much every way. So there's no reason to cut 2 Pokegear for 2 of an inferior card. However, only 3 Pokegear are necessary. You don't run more than 4 Collector, but you're better off running shuffle-draw supporters than the X-Transceiver, since they have a more reliable effect.

You have the head start, but remember that you need to have timely Revives, Catchers, Hammers, Removers, etc. It's better to have 6 cards than 4 cards when you need those kinds of resources. If you put your opponent from, say, 4 card to 6 cards, you don't disrupt them a lot, if at all, but you also just got half a mill in. There's really no situation where Judge is better than N, imo. The rest of your post is basically theorymon. N was amazing in testing, and Judge would have been much worse.

I'm not sure if your last comment is sarcastic or not. Nobody was asking you to step out of the conversation. We are having an argument/conversation, and there's nothing wrong with you having a different opinion than a mod, so long as you defend it properly, which you are doing.

konter- I'm not even going to respond to that. X-Transceiver is not a consistency card. 50% is not consistency. The card will not see any play until Pokegear is rotated, but since Junk Arm will most likely be rotated then, I'm willing to bet it will never see play. Furthermore, running a 2/2 split is not more consistent than a 4/0 split. And yes, I have won two Regionals.
 
konter_j8902 said:
because putting more consistency in a deck would make it harder to get the cards you need.




inb4Celebi23scrub


Seriously, you won a regionals?
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I definitely agree that Shuffle Draw>X-Transciever, and Pokegear>X Transciever. I don't see why that makes Celebi a scrub...

On a seperate topic, do you guys think about defenders in Durant?
 
Defender seems like an obvious play. If you know they'll have to work to force out a KO, slap on a Defender and make it 20 HP tougher.
 
minimidget94 said:
I definitely agree that Shuffle Draw>X-Transciever, and Pokegear>X Transciever. I don't see why that makes Celebi a scrub...

On a seperate topic, do you guys think about defenders in Durant?
Click to expand...
That's because it doesn't make me a scrub lol.

I don't run Defender in mine. It doesn't make a difference most of the time. Eviolite is always the better play, except that you can't stack it. However, what is stacked Defender going to do for you? Any good fire type will still OHKO you. Magnezone is already auto-win, basically. You're already out of Donphan and Yanmega's OHKO range with Eviolite. Zekrom still OHKOs, even with two Defender and a Special Metal.
 
Right it would never be in place of Eviolite. That's a good point, everything that OHKO's it still will, and everything that didn't still won't.
 
I don't like N or judge. If they have taken 4-5 prizes they are normally almost decked out because they struggled for the 4-5 so N just refuels their deck and gives them an extra turn or two, or they are ohkoing you without a problem so that 'disruption' doesn't do anything to their game plan. I also don't like Judge. Durant needs to have an ample hand to be able to play what it needs exactly when it needs it, 4 cards hurts you a lot. If you need a hand refresh, PONT is the best bet imo, but draw power so outclasses hand refresh in Durant that I can't see why you would run that over a Juniper/Sages/Cheren etc.

Although, we play very different deck lists, Celebi, so maybe those work better for you, but they have no synergy with my play style. I also don't run defender though, 20dmg reduction won't be game changing enough to warrant the spaces. You shouldn't run more than 2 imo and 3-4 is hurting you because of whatever you cut to fit them in.

DCE and energy exchanger isn't the best play here and neither is Xtransceiver, but that was already made clear.

On a side note, rescue was brought up 1 time, I'm really trying to fit it in my list. I hate the idea of having to drop 2 energies on 1 Durant (sometimes 2 special energies), but FSL really doesn't cut it against trainer lock in my experience, and I hate bellsprout.
 
How is DCE>Tyrogue? In any way? If you're simply running 1, Tyrogue is searchable, DCE is not. You have about 10 or 11 cards in your deck, and then Tyrogue, that give you an out to it (Collector/PokéGear/Dual Ball), and if you run any Energy Exchanger, that pretty much just hurts you late-game. I'd much rather have a PONT and a regular Metal Energy than be able to search out the Special Metal energy.

About N, I think you guys should try it. In most matchups, your opponent will not simply be draw-attacking– you can cause Yanmega some problems, as well as Donphan (especially with Crushing Hammer). Magnezone does stuff beyond T3. Goth needs to hit those Psychic Energy still to get OHKOs. Zekrom can't just Bolt Strike every turn– they'll need to get more than one Zekrom out, and if you can stop them by forcing them to draw into 3 cards, that's pretty powerful.

I'd test it. I know it seems like it'd be counterproductive, but hey, your opponent probably has a PONT/Judge that he's saving for what would be the last turn anyways. And that can be even better, because you might mill it.

Just try it out a bit; it can work pretty well.
 
wow, long thread... sorry, but I came to this party late. Something that I'm testing with some success but have not seen mentioned here is the use of Persian. Yes it's flip dependent, but unlike Weavile, once out, it is an option every turn. It also creates some rather disruptive situations... Catcher, Seeker, Persian with a couple heads has a good chance of discarding a key card to their setup.

As my tests have shown, playing Durant is all about getting four of them out turn one, milling consistently and using Revive/Junkarm-revive to keep the cards going. everything else is a distraction and superfluous. To that end, I run maximum Collector, Dual Ball and a couple Poke-Ball (can get the Persian). After setup turn one, all of those cards are my fodder for the Junk Arm discard.

to help with disruption, I load up with Pokemon Catcher, Lost Remover, Crushing Hammer, and Team Rocket's Trickery.

I've found that any attempt to slow the knock out with Eviolite, Defender, etc, really doesn't do much but take up space in the deck, after all, Revive makes this deck work so well that I rarely care if they knock a Durant out. The average win/lose point has been around turn 9, which means that with them having to knock out 6 Durant, I need to somehow buy three turns to get them decked out. Going first, milling fast is the entire game, if I can stall them at all in the first couple of rounds then it's game over.

The key midgame disruption seems to be ridding their deck of energy, after all, most competitive decks run very few energy so if you can catcher-crushing hammer successfully, it might get you that critical turn or two where they're sitting active with no ability to switch/super scoop up/retreat in order to keep attacking.

As for my own set up, I prefer a combination of PONT, N, and Judge so that I can choose between them as the situation warrants. Judge helps early game if they're not yet set up (especially if I'm using Persian), N is good late game to limit their hand - don't worry about giving them more cards in their deck, if you've catchered up a powerless attacker, they will usually end up using a PONT to get the necessary cards they need to keep hitting, which burns the cards just as fast.

So far, I'm loving this deck, simply for the reason that it's fun to watch my opponent sweat out the discard in the first couple of turns.
 
I've personally faced this deck at league. Its really annoying once it gets set up. All I have to say about it is... "so much discard ugh"!

But the deck is awesome though ^^
 
IMO Weavile is much better than Persian here. Not only do you get to choose the card you discard, you also don't need energy, and the basic has free retreat. Plus, you don't want to waste a turn that could have been spent milling on discarding 1-2 cards at random.
 
I'm sorry, but persian simply will not work. You need to mill every single turn, or you will lose. I don't even think weavile is completely needed. All the disruption you need is N, catcher, crushing hammer, and lost remover.
 
What sort of counts are people running crushing hammer and lost remover in? I think I am at 2 crushing hammer and 1 lost remover.
 
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